Re: College level First!
 

I thought about joining the project on FIRSTforge to share this, but figure it is just as well posted here.

I love engineering challenges at the college level. They give students an ability to apply their knowledge beyond the classroom and in many cases keep students motivated to learn. Now there are an abundant amount of these challenges already (FSAE, Mini-baja, moon buggy, SME robots, Aero, IGVC, etc) each one of them presents a different opportunity for students to focus on a specific thing. That being said there are a few things that differ with the proposed format than other competitions which in my opinion will negatively impact the competition.

1) New game every year: While FRC is fun this way in a college environment all sports and most engineering clubs have the same rules year after year. This is due to the fact that most clubs take their previous works and build off of successes and failures. Iterative design is the key that keeps teams and clubs going, so each year knowledge can be passed from older members to younger members. Tackling the same or similar challenges allows people to focus on perfecting aspects of their systems rather than hurrying to try and get something complete.

2)Multiple challenges: One competition would be sufficient to challenge students to push their boundaries. By making multiple challenges with different feature sets required for each you are inadvertently causing the overall performance of each challenge to fall, as people will not be able to focus on solving a problem and with divided efforts comes less time on each element. In a sense it is being a Jack of all trades and a master of none.

3)Not focusing on the robot: This is the biggest one. To put it bluntly, I would never compete in a technical competition where the performance of my robot is not the deciding factor for becoming "the event champion." After reading through your handbook the "team spirit award" has the same weight as the best on field (or air) performance. With FRC the other awards (chairman's, EI) are all important because it is typically these things that put into perspective the big picture of what is important in life, yet the focus is still the robot. In a college environment I highly doubt that any dean would be satisfied hearing that his team was the best robot but lost to the team that had a cooler t-shirt and cheered louder. You are not catering to students in the sense that you want to inspire appreciation of Science and technology, you are presenting a no-nonsense engineering challenge where the robot performance should be the only metric. To give an example from the FSAE competition, there are different elements (braking, steering, acceleration, etc) and the requirements for a design presentation, but it is never a factor if a team spreads the message of FSAE in the community (although many teams do show their cars off).

All in all i think there is always room for another college engineering competition as different students have different interests and the goal is to challenge people within their specialty, but if you follow the model set by other FIRST programs and focus on things other than the engineering your program will not rise to the level of success it could achieve otherwise.

Re: College level First!
 

That is one of the things we have considered, One of the models we see, is the Jerry Saunders Creative Design Competition, and while it changes every year, it doesn't completely change, you still tend to use the same robot every year, but with tweaks and modifications.

This is something we haven't set in stone yet, so please do join the FIRSTForge site, and help us figure out how to carry on with this element of the competition.

Re: College level First!
 

To address your third concern, the weights set forth in the manual are very much just placeholders.

This concern of yours highlights the HUGE variability in what people think. You can ask for the program to be perfect, for it to not take away from FRC, for robots to be built for almost nothing... but ultimately these things are impossible. This award structure is how we will recognize that there is more to the engineering challenge than the short competition; there is more to FIRST than the robot; there is more to a team than the driver on the field; and so on.

As for the same robots each year, just because the challenge may vary doesn't mean a team can't build off of the same platform. This program has no restrictions in place to prevent re-entry next year. Of course, this is a pilot and we've never done it before, so who knows?

The reason there are multiple challenges this year is that we have no idea how well any of these robots will perform. We also have no idea what sorts of challenges the robots will be able to complete. This 3-game triathlon format is how we will utilize our experiment to take as much data as possible. We increment the difficulty and test out various air and ground modalities with the hope of receiving as much feedback as possible about what people like and dislike following the event. Do you like one game more than another? Tell us!

Thanks for the critical thinking and great feedback!

Re: College level First!
 

I agree with Greg, make it more about the Robot and whittle it down to one game.

This is college level, it should be about the robot when it comes to victory. Although the other areas are important, engineers are primarily paid to make good products.

Personally, it'd be the difference for someone like me even considering competing or not; some people only like competitive competitions.

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

Is there any way to still get a team involved?

Re: College level First!
 

Though I agree that robots are important in a robot competition, I disagree slightly with the notion that engineers are only going to need to make good products.

In most cases that may be true, but as someone who has worked for two startups, I know how much effort goes into building a team of skilled people and organizing them to do more than build a great product. You can have the best idea and the best product in the world, but if you don't have a well run team and you don't know how to market your product, support your customers, etc you will not succeed.

Re: College level First!
 

I've sat on my thoughts for this, and think I'm ready to give some input.

FIRST is about inspiration, yes. College FIRST should be about intrinsically inspiring individuals, not a society. Typically, students who would choose to do a FIRST challenge in college have already chosen the path that FIRST's message wants them to take, so FIRST in college with all of the high school mentality is like preaching to the choir.

In college it's time to face the real world, including actual failures that lead to loss. In high school the mentors told them failure is ok; in college it's the same, yet students should at least mature to understand the risk in endeavor. Take the training wheels off and force the students to get GOOD at what they're trying to do in the most technical sense possible. This is how FIRST in college could inspire an individual.

Any bonus points should come from a business plan for the design of the robot that the team comes up with. The rest are frivolous intermediary awards that serve no purpose for a college that's in the business of pushing engineering students to their technical limits.

Re: College level First!
 

I agree that other areas are important, as I said. However, engineers are primarily paid to make good products (or test good products, or oversee the work on good products, Marketing a good product, etc.. etc... It all comes down to good products).

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

I agree with what Adam has said here. I am currently not involved in FIRST while at college because I was one of the people that did not really like the community aspect of the team. I wanted to focus on building the best machine possible, but community involvement always seemed to get in the way. A college competition based solely around the machine would be more inviting for serious engineering students.

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

You mean like the Vex Robotics College Challenge? The competition exists, is challenging on both a mechanical and software front, and has had a few years of success behind it. There aren't many other college level head-to-head robotics competition models, so it has a pretty neat niche.

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

And in the Mid-Atlantic, this is a really fun event: http://robotevents.com/robot-competi...challenge.html

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

I love VEX, but Bigger! :D
Meh, I still don't see a problem with having a pilot competition. The way they gauge how well/poorly the pilot does is the issue. Hopefully FIRST will publish criteria for the pass/fail of the pilot event.

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

Summing up a bunch of other points, opportunities for serious engineering students exist already, in research and actual classes. I would still take FIRST College (what're we calling it now?) to be an extra-curricular and additive to anything you do as an engineering student. And since FIRST's mission isn't about Robotics (just happens that's the best discipline to spread their mission), and is more about spreading science and technology, and creating the next generation of engineers. I would expect an equal weight to the robot building design as well as the presentation aspect.

I mentioned this earlier about a Engineering Design award, where the award should be based not only on the actual design of the robot, but equivalently to the presentation of the design.

I would also like to see another award similar to chairman's, showcasing how a team acts in its community and affects others to become inspired by science and technology. Because this again, is part of FIRST's mission (and really what makes it different).

Taking all the same aspects of FRC to the college level but upping the actual science and technology behind the robot and including a "conference paper", would be really optimal.

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

My advice to any college engineering student is to first concentrate on successfully completing the courses for your degree. Second, look and see what activity will help you start your career. Once you are working, paying back loans, you will then have the resources to be a mentor. I have seen some great college mentors - but I have seen others that have had a tough time with second semester classes.

There are many college competitions which have the spirit and the community of FIRST, I have seen one SAE team give another SAE team parts, help weld, or cheer on a competitior. Even if your college does not participate in FIRST or VEX, they may have other robot competitions that compete on the college/commerical/international circuit. Marie

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

Toasting in an epic bread. :yikes:

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

Hmmm...yummmy?

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

While I agree that FIRST College should have a strong emphasis on the end product, looking at it from a business perspective is also useful.

From my observations working with MTU's Robotics Enterprise, it is not enough to simply produce a great robot. This robot building process requires a large support staff of business people, accountants, and managers. In addition to this, in the real world, you would have to SELL your product to people. Corporate responsibility and philanthropy can be huge factors in this. Learning where your community needs the most help, and providing volunteers or services can be a huge asset to the overall growth of your business.

This is where marketing and corporate pride (team spirit anybody?) come into play. A company that is proud of what they do and transparent in their actions will be much more appealing to the consumer. FRC is about inspiring students to take the leap into a STEM field, but FIRST College should be about having something useful to put on a resume. Being able to present a well laid out team structure with management and business plans, extensive budgets, examples of community involvement, AND a great product will get you far.

This is why I think it is important to integrate some of FIRST's core values and take them to the next level in this new program. Losing sight of everything else FRC stands for is setting an example for a younger generation. How can we participate in a program that FRC students will look at and say "well, the college kids don't have to do any of this feel good crap. I just want to build robots. I don't want to do community service. Clearly it's not important if they just drop it once we hit the next level"

Instead of dropping things, let's step it up and take FIRST to a whole new level!

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

I spent a lot of time at the CARD thing this past weekend. I mean, yes it was small and yes it was the first time it ever made a debut, but I think it went rather well! You guys did a good job!

In my opinion, a college-level FIRST program would be a fine addition to the FIRST family of programs. As said by others on this thread, yes the FIRST goals talk about getting students into STEM careers and inspire them to pursue STEM into college in order to get to those careers. If students stop doing STEM related fun when they get to college, then what is there to keep inspiring them to become a great engineer or scientist?

Now for a quick story:
I am currently a year out of high school, just finishing up my freshman year of college. I am still mentoring team 1675 ago (my high school FRC team) as well as helping with a couple FLL teams since that is where I got my start 8 years because I went to college in my hometown. I had never had any interest in engineering until about two months ago when I looked at my life and said "I am not happy with where I am going and headed", the where here being towards 8 more years in school as a medical student plus another 4 years about with residencies and all that medical stuff even before I got an official doctor job. Therefore, I am now in the process of transferring to the Milwaukee School of Engineering and pursuing mechanical engineering instead. Now I am horrible at math and always have been, and I know that math is the basis for most engineering, which means I am going to have to study super hard and get my work done and just in general work as hard as I can to be where I want to be.

Yes, FIRST has had a hand in all this of course, but one of the problems I saw at my current college is that no one had in common with me the love I have for FIRST. At MSOE, I will have those people, and a college team to share the love with. Now, I am not just transferring to join this team, since I could from where I am at now, but I believe having the opportunity to still compete in college, as well as mentor an FRC team (along with my FLL teams and FTC and FLL volunteering throughout the year) kind of all around embodies all that FIRST is about. Yes, it is about inspiring students, but hey, I still am a student for the next 4 years right?

College is a very hard place to sit as a mentor. Some teams even make their students stay away from mentoring until you have graduated. You don't have much to offer yet as far as professional advice and you may not have as much power as you think you will have. I know I am sitting kind of in limbo right now between alumni and actual mentor. I would love to have a competition to keep me busy AND keep me involved with FIRST, since Dean has been big on keeping in touch with ALL FIRST alumni.

Sorry if this post sounds a little weird, as I think it does, you know Champs was just this past weekend and I am nowhere near recovered yet... :D

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

A collegiate level First Program would not only further the goals of First, but it would also get FIRST students more excited about college, and provide even more incentive for students to go to college and to actually be able to apply what they learn as they learn it.

Re: Collegiate FIRST competition
 

i belive that a collegiante level competition is an amazing idea. the only problem might be with finding students and mentors, and we cant forget coming up with amazing challenges and games to challenge the mind of a college student.

and lets face it everyone knows that the worst part of FIRST, is having to give it up after high school.

but this may effect frc teams because some teams have college students as mentors for thier team.

i know that the comittee will make the right choice, like the do all the time, and make robotics even more fun and more challenging then any one ever though it could be.