Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I wrote this post in the 2011 Registration thread and it was not the place for it. If anyone is interested in discussing or sharing your thoughts on current and future sustainability in FRC, this could be a place to do that. I'd like to see FIRST become extremely proactive in this area, acknowledging that it needs a lot of thought, work, effort, development, and implementation of a program to aid/train teams in team sustainability - esp. the younger and more vulnerable FRC teams.

Sincerely,
Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I know most of the talk has been about money and I agree it's important but I have seen more that my fair share of teams fail because of loss of leadership.

So many teams have that one leader that is the glue that hold the team together. When that leader leaves the team the team looses direction and is lost.

It can happen for so many reasons but the one I think needs addressed is burnout. We have all experienced it. You put so much of your time and soul into the program that other areas of your life are neglected and fall apart or people simply get tired. Most team members don't have a clue how many hours these key people put into the team every year.

I would like to see the FIRST community address this problem and come up with a way to help team members help sustain those key team leaders. Maybe a care and feeding guide for the key leadership. Ways to support and show appreciation for the mentors and sponsors that hold teams together before it's too late and they are lost.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Recently we did a thing on helping teams with the sustainability issue. It was recorded and posted online.

GeorgiaFIRST has posted a lecture on team sustainability in 3 parts on the GeorgiaFIRST youtube channel.

You can find it here in the "Mentor Resources" area.

Credit is due to a variety of people and groups.

There are slides adapted from a presentation by Team 234 Cyber Blue.

The ideas pertaining to leadership and strategic analysis techniques are derived from lectures by professor Dutch Leonard et. al. of the Harvard Business School.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

From Bob Steele:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=42
do think that we need to see more support from FIRST in the arena of Fundraising.
i remember that last year it was a big deal at Kickoff... to date... Where are these programs?
I haven't seen anything of substance yet... I had thought we would have some kind of
"Green" fundraising activities fleshed out by FIRST and presented by now...

FIRST needs to find ways to help veteran teams raise money... Rookie teams seem to find a way of coming up with the necessary funds and so many of the grant programs are earmarked for these new teams...

I hope to see some real ideas from FIRST on how to SUSTAIN teams and not just how to
CREATE teams...

From www.usfirst .org:
FIRST Receives Grant From Google
Google is providing FIRST with a $3 million grant to develop and jump start new student-driven robotics team fundraising programs that will empower more student teams to participate in FIRST. More details coming soon.

From me:
Eagerly awaiting word on what this will look like. The way I read this it covers new teams AND veteran teams, teaching them techniques to fish. Is my interpretation incorrect?

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

You beat me to it. I hope there are lots of responses.

It seems to me there are two main reasons for teams to stop, money and lack of interest. I have read lots of good ideas on fundraising on CD, less on the interest side. In my one year of experience it seems that most students that get involved want to stay involved. If this is not true on a team, is it a leadership issue?

It seems a lot harder attracting new students, and maybe mentors. It is hard to get people to take the first step. I talk about FIRST way too much and have many people tell me how good a program it is and really appear excited, then never show up to events or follow through with their kids.

Maybe FIRST needs to spend some money on advertising. Most of the people I mention it to have not heard about it or don't know much about it. They certainly have no clue when the events are.

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble, but it disturbs me to think of students being exposed to FIRST only to have their team fold.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Some of these suggestions were wrapped into the original mission of the FIRST Senior Mentor project, especially re: support and recognition. I'm retired from the Senior Mentor project so can't speak to what the priorities are now.

FIRST recently did hire someone to focus on the following issues:

The Volunteer Resources Coordinator for Mentor/Coach Relations is responsible for developing and coordinating a mentor/coach services and communications program for all FIRST programs including the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC), FIRST LEGO League (FLL) and FIRST Tech Challenge (FTC.) This position is part of the Volunteer Resources team that recruits, trains, and recognizes FIRST volunteers. The Mentor/Coach Program Services Coordinator will identify Mentor and Coach recruitment and training practices currently used by FIRST and communications methods and, in collaboration with designated program staff, design and implement approved upgrades and enhancements in these areas. This position will also act as the designated Volunteer Resources liaison to FIRST departments and programs

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

A few years ago our team helped to secure a $300,000 grant to help start the Boston regional and create many FRC teams in the Greater Boston area.

The grants given to teams were to last for 3 years, at which point the teams were expected to have grown to a sustainable level with their own sponsorship. Many many teams fell apart as soon as the grant went away.

Still, many teams that have held on have a tough time getting through build season. Our team has helped any team that has come to us in need. This includes purchasing many components/material for teams that have come by, in addition to utilizing our machining, fundraising and mentoring resources. Typically by the end of build season we are sharing our lab with at least 5 other teams and traveling to/corresponding with dozens more.

It certainly puts a drain on our team, but we need to work with these teams like this to keep them going. BostonFIRST started a regional mentoring program a few years ago to help combat some of the issues I've discussed. Essentially it's a collection of mentors from the Boston area which has been assembled to support struggling teams that attend the Boston regional. The program has certainly helped, but I really think the big initiative needs to come from Manchester to have a truly lasting effect.

-Brando

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

While asking "FIRST" for a solution seems like the thing to do, I would instead paraphrase a famous leader:

"Ask not what FIRST can do for you, ask what you can do for FIRST."

Issues: Leadership, Mentorship, Sponsorship, Resources (space, tools, ...)

Here are some things my team is trying to do. I like synergies, so I try to promote ideas that benefit 2-3 areas witha single action.

************************************************** *****
Leadership/Mentorship/Help Rookies:
College Students: I am not a big fan of college students being mentors in college. I do however think they are a key to solving many problems. There are many design competitions that students can compete in and gain leadership skills and the tools necessary to become technical mentors. There is a significant lack for organizational and team leadership opportunites. the proposal is to have a club at colleges as universities put on a 1 day clinic on Mechanical, electical, and programming of the Kit-Bot. This clinic would occur early in the build season. This program would give college students the opportunity to stay involved in FIRST, work with Alumni from other teams, and come together to organize an event. There is resource scheduling, budgeting, coordination,... All the "tools" necessary to put on an event. From these clubs, you would be promoting the skill-sets necessary for Robot Inspectors, Mentors, Team Leaders/Mentors, and Event Leaders (think future kick-off coordinators and/or Regional Planners). I have a couple students in Oakland interested in doing this, but help would greatly be appreciated.
******************************************
Resources/Mentorship:
Last year Michigan University teamed up with Detroit Public Schools to set up a common shop that teams could build in. This program is called the MEZ (Michigan Engineering Zone). I haven't been able to attend any of their events in person yet, but this is a Great idea and a great way to share resources.

******************************************
Leadership/College student:
We tried an interesting program on our team this last year. It really got started by a former student Buying a book for me. The book was "Tribal Leadership". While it starts a bit slow, it is a wonderful book that addresses personality types and leadership formats within small groups. IndySam, wanna know why these "all or nothing" leaders exist? Wanna know how to fix it? Check out tribal leadership. You can actually download the audio version through Zappos.com for free. Yes free! I believe that Zappos pays the publisher for the downloads. If this doesn't make sense, it will by the time you finish the book. We have passed books around the team, and share verbally lessons learned from the different things we read.
This would be a good practice to spread. While the handing books from person to person has worked well within our team and close friends, we have had issues getting it to spread further. We tried a couple ideas with regards to "seeding" the community, but that hasn't take off yet. If you read JVN's design blog, he had a post on IDEO's idea future books. He commented on one of the models and mentioned wanting to know what "Woody Flowers" read. If we were to incorporate that idea with some web based tools, I think there might be something worth-while there. There is a linked-in great spreading great articles and websites. I also think that because reading a book is so time intensive, imagine if instead you could go through and get a good synopsis on the book. In many MBA programs, they intentionally give you too much to read, that way you have to rely on discussing cases with others. The idea is that through the sharing process you will gain much of the knowledge in a lot less time. This kind of community is begging for a FB app, or for someone to start on Blogspot or ... or ... Allow amazon to advertise books on it, and it might even be a money maker.


******************************************
Sponsorship/Mentorship/Taxes:
There is an old saying, "Time is Money". I would love to see really become true. I have an idea for a tax rebate for mentor based programs. If a taxpayer that pays above a certain amount of taxes (yet to be determined) volunteers time in a mentorship program, then that program would be able to file for a tax return form where up to the first 200 hrs. of the mentors time would be matched at the national minimum wage. This would make teams want to get mentors, and would help mentors "rationalize" some of their time better. The 200 hour cap is specific for a number of reasons. Programs would have to apply for these funds, and there would likely need to be a special section of 501c3 corporations. I have sent in a couple emails to senators and political parties trying to find out how to get a proposal together. If anyone knows how proposals get attention, please PM me. I think this program could get passed as the current First lady is big on promoting mentorship programs, and I have a feeling that a "tax cut" congress will be in session this next year. Maybe we(first people) could finally get them(gov people) to agree on something.

**************************************************
Sponsoship: Observation
We are doing something wrong. Well, wrong may be a strong word, but definitely not optimally. Many teams struggle to find funding to go to the Championship. Many schools do not allow for carry-over budget so teams end up being forced to spend Championship contingency funds.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

And to add another phrase:

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime"

IMHO -
Sustainability is something the FIRST community should be addressing and is NOT something that Manchester should be dealing with. Manchester has other fish to fry. I don't think that 'centrally planned' sustainability efforts will be one hundredth as effective as students maintaining a presence in front of the public and transmitting a steady drip drip of positive messages to their community.

I don't like the idea that we teach students or foster an attitude that we always look to 'HQ' for all the answers. We will be in much better shape as a society to teach students how to run an effective organizations, for-profit, and non-profit. We should teach students how to solve problems, not delegate problems upward.

Having finished with that rant....where do we go from here ? Do we need to create a top ten list of things to do that make sure that teams are on track to staying sustainable.

I'll start off

# 1 - thank your sponsors, during the summer, show them examples of impact
# 2
# 3
etc.......

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I think you are shrugging off peoples concerns a little too quickly here. I know many mentors who are attempting to help many teams and struggle to get through a season. Look at some of the posts in this thread already and others scattered throughout CD and you will see a considerable number of mentors stressing how difficult it is to maintain teams.

I don't think anyone is asking that HQ step up and handle this on their own, but we're kind of asking them to help us, help them.

-Brando

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

If we're going to start our own sustainability initiative, we need to consider why teams drop out, and target that.

Up here in SD, the half-dozen or so teams that used to be here back around 5 years ago are all gone. They were funded by a grant, and when the grantor had to cut back on funding due to other things, they dropped out, except for one. That one team is no longer in FRC. I can think of another 4-5 teams in and around L.A. that have dropped out for whatever reason, funding included.

Most of the teams that I know about that have dropped have not been able (or, not been willing) to raise the funds needed to compete. Some went to FTC or VRC, as both of those are cheaper, but others seem to have vanished entirely. Very few have disappeared due to lack of students/mentors.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I don't want to sound like I'm shrugging anything off. I just think we, the community of FIRST'ers, need to some up with a concise way to help help teams understand how to run a sustainable organization independent of input from an 'HQ'.

#1 - thank the sponsors
#2 - get some press coverage
#3 - do presentations all throughout the off season
#4 - ??

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I think everyone agrees funding is a big issue... If a team can't develop multiple independent sources of funding, when one company drops out it becomes a huge deal. Even if there are plenty of mentors and students involved with the team, if you can't come up with enough funding to get the KoP and a regional, the team is finished.

And, as others stated, leadership is also a big deal. Without good leadership, a team will fall apart. The biggest issue with this has to be finding new mentors to replace old ones. For us, two years ago our electrical mentor moved to California, and thus couldn't help with the team anymore. Ever since then, I've been filling in at the position, but I'm not an electrical engineer. I know there's so much more an EE could help the kids with... but we can't find one to work with the team.

Frankly, given the thousands of students FIRST graduates every year, I find it shocking that we don't have more of them coming back to mentor. Yes, some do... but many don't. I think the biggest problem with that is a lack of involvement with FIRST in college. Being a college mentor is hard, and making the transition from hands-on working on the robot one year to standing back and helping the next is very difficult... difficult enough to discourage people. Having the time to be a valuable part of the team while in college is incredibly hard.

FIRST has been "growing backwards" for a long time now. The focus has been on getting kids involved at younger and younger ages (FTC, FLL, Jr. FLL), and developing a program that guides them from elementary school up through high school. And it's done a great job with that... However it all pretty much just stops there. We assume that we can provide the influence to get kids into engineering in college, but we don't go on to support them once they are at an engineering school. We hand them off to professional engineering societies and let them proceed without us. They get involved with those societies and stay involved with them after they graduate.

What first really needs at this point is a college program. Something that can accommodate the students schedule with a longer, less intense build season that doesn't require 40 hours per week of work. Something that lets them be hands-on with the robot, building and shaping it, while introducing more leadership and mentoring opportunities (possibly through workshops or camps designed for the other FIRST programs). Keep those kids involved with FIRST throughout college, and we'll start seeing a lot more of them coming back to help mentor teams after they graduate. And when they do, they'll bring the thousands of companies that don't already sponsor FIRST they work for with them. It's a win-win that helps with both of our biggest issues.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I can't quite see this as a positive idea. The bigger picture goal is to spread the FIRST culture throughout society, and keeping college-age students closely tied to FIRST would likely end up making them more insulated from the rest of the world. If we want to transform that world, the professional engineering societies need them more than FIRST does.

The way I see it, sustainability shouldn't mean keeping individuals in FIRST longer. It should mean giving teams the ability to survive even when specific individuals leave. It should mean giving them the ability to survive even when they lose specific sources of funding. It should be about team continuity, not about personal lifetime commitment (though such commitment can be a large help in making the rest happen).

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

In MI. several teams banded together and formed a group called MMRA (Mid Michigan Robotic Alliance). Currently there are 12 due paying members with a couple more teams asking to join this year. We joined together to not only help and support each other during build but to also approach businesses for money.

We felt that it would be easier for our group to ask for money from people like the UAW and grant monies. Companies would rather write 1 check and see there name on 12 robots rather then 1 check 1 robot.

Each team must help out in several areas in order to receive any monies raised. Ex. run a Lego team, send 2 volunteers to help in a concession booth during Districts, help put on the Kettering Kickoff in the fall, participate in a public awareness opportunity such as Back To the Bricks which is a giant auto cruise/show, etc.

Currently every team except 1 in Genesee and Lapeer Counties are involved. We also have an Oakland County team involved. We meet 4-6 times a year to discuss our ideas and work on fund raisers. We are a 501 3c organization, have officers, sub groups etc. I know this model won't work for everybody but it is certainly helping all of us.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

It doesn't have to be an either/or thing in college. Having FIRST actively involved on campus every year will create even more interaction with the professional societies. A college FIRST program would jump at the chance to work with all of the other engineering societies on campus to promote and celebrate eWeek, for example.

If we could get just 10% of current FIRST students to give 4 years of mentoring after college, teams wouldn't have a problem finding new mentors when old ones get burned out, move, or have to focus on other life commitments. One person, fresh out of college working some place that hasn't been exposed to FIRST can get that company involved in just a year or two. It would help provide a constant influx of new leadership, mentors, and companies.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I'm basically with Alan on this one. I do not think FIRST should be in college for many reasons.

These students need need to focus on school and move on to new and fresh experiences. A time will come when they will return to FIRST as educated and experienced mentors. It may be in a future job or when they have kids but the day will come.

There is a large pool of potential mentors out there right now that are fresh and motivated. They just need to be recruited. They need to learn more about FIRST type programs. If properly presented they will come. And when they come there is a possibility that due to their presence funding might improve. Either because their company has an allowance to give to initiatives that their employees are involved in, or they may know someone that can donate, or they have some talent in fundraising.

In a little over two weeks MIT will be releasing the 1st in a series of short videos that you can use to help with mentor recruitment. It is from an effort called the MIT Mentorship Initiative.

Stay tuned.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Sustainability is a real issue in FIRST. I think there are several contributors.

Most teams rely on a single "Angel" sponsor for the majority of their funding. When that Angel disappears, sustaining their team becomes very difficult.

For instance, a number of long-term teams in Michigan (6-7 years) are in major trouble because the sponsorship from some Michigan automakers is drying up.

At the same time, many companies are only interested in starting their own team - not sponsoring an existing team for any large financial amount. Bringing a new long-term big-money sponsor on board is very difficult.

Diversifying your sponsorship is key, but it's very difficult to keep a divese base of sponsors intact - the time requirements are large.

A FIRST robotics budget is simply above the amount of money that most people can fundraise every year. $15,000 (a reasonable budget that would allow you to be competitive) is incredibly difficult to fund-raise.

Probably my biggest gripe is something we've run into the last two years. When we started raising our entry fee I've heard a number of comments about how "pay to play" sports don't cost as much as robotics.

Schools think nothing of building a track, a soccer field, a baseball field, and a football field. Bleachers, lights, and then maintaining all that year round. In addition they eat a huge chunk of teams expenses (travel, equipment). Schools are the "Angel" investor in terms of sports. That's why so-called "pay to play" is still so inexpensive. Selling this sport to the schools and getting their decision-makers (the union leadership and the administration) to buy-in should be a huge focus.

I've presented a lot of problems and not many solutions: they are all problems our team has fought with over the last 4 years and continue to fight with.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I'm not against the idea. I just don't think it has a lot to do with the topic of sustainability.

I don't see how extending the "student competition" model past high school would lead to that happening. Forming teams to solve technical challenges is intended to expose students to the excitement and satisfaction of real-world science and engineering. That's not necessary for college students who have (mostly) already chosen their path. If we want to increase the availability of mentors, we need to expose them to the excitement and satisfaction of mentoring.

It seems to me that an emphasis instead on more volunteering might be better. College students who haven't yet gained the experience (and occasionally the social maturity) to be effective mentors will still be able to help regional/district competitions happen smoothly, and in an intermediate position between student and mentor they can get a more appropriate perspective on what good mentoring entails. Rather than giving them a technical problem to solve and the technical resources to help them solve it, give them a people problem and the social resources to help them meet the needs of the organization. Form a "FIRST Volunteer Corps" and make training available. Hold seminars on Tribal Leadership or something.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

One thing I have to ask, why the willingness to be the "Angel" investor for sports but, in many cases, not for robotics? What do sports provide that FIRST doesn't and how do we need to change to provide that.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Teams failing for financial reasons can't truly be helped from the outside; you can give them a large grant as a band aid, but when that dries up they often die.

Teams really need the attitude from the inside that fundraising is easy, fun and required. Our team has raised $50k the last few seasons without too much hassle.

What seems to be lacking is a central person leading the team longterm, and with longterm goals. Invested Mentors more or less.

On the technical side, the same issue exists; high schools kids are capable of a lot, but without technical mentorship they simply can't compete with the teams that have a good deal of technical mentorship (and then top notch students from working with that mentorship).

What I'm getting at is if FIRST is to continue growing, or in my opinion truly sustain the teams it has at a more competitive level, we need mentors, and we need lots of them. FIRST's efforts should be put into that, and teams working with government should be stressing that. We need a way to recruit more mentors at the national level, word of mouth currently is insufficient for the bottom half of teams that are struggling. It's unfortunate that this has gained FIRST a reputation for being amateur (I've heard that a LOT from engineers in industry and college students). Some people I've talked with don't want to mentor a FIRST team because they already believe it to be amateur based on what they've seen. It's an unfortunate cycle. If FIRST brought the floor up and reached a more impressive technical level, I feel we'd open ourselves to a wider mentor pool, many mentors just want to come and show up and help without having to be responsible for bringing a team from way down to way up.

It's been my dream for years that each high school would hire an engineer to run a team, budgeting a $100k a year for his pay and the team's entire budget is a huge initial investment for schools, but the payout is immense. This is the government policy we should be working towards; obviously that's not an easy one.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

San Antonio FRC expereince

FRC came into town with 457 in 2000
499 and 653 come in a year after that in 2001
Zero growth until a break through year with NASA funded, Texas High School Project funds in 2009
The following year new teams formed from Boeing grants in 2010
During that those two years 457 had gone dormant due to the lead teacher and founder retiring from teaching. The transition plan failed as the potential lead also transferred out of the district. So in 10 years of just a few teams in our area and just recent years of high growth, no team in SA has folded due to lack of funding.
News Flash 457 is coming back this year after being gone for 2.:D

Key to some of the success and growth/revival has been teacher training during the summer and teachers from successful veteran teams moving to new schools/districts and forming a team of their own. The later definately being in the organic growth mode.:) The program that I now direct, Texas Institute for Educational Robotics, TIER. Has conducted 90 contact hour STEM teacher institutes focused on educational robotics. We teach them software, have them build kit robots (VEX & Tetrix) ideas for lesson using robotics in the classroom, how to write a team business plan, grant writing tips, the importance of an elevador speach.... The point being that community developed programs can do a lot more to sustain teams than far away funding programs. New money has been very helpful in starting new teams.

As Jane and others who have posted recently, FIRST in Texas is about to fund 40 new FRC teams (190 FTC teams) in the State and San Antonio is about to double our FRC teams in a single year with 6 or so new rookies.:yikes:

Workshops/mentoring/veteran team support/ great ideas from white papers on CD and this and other threads are going to be part of the mountain of work that sustains this spike in growth and hopefully also spurs more moderate growth in future year.::rtm::

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Ike,
I don't think anyone wants to look to FIRST for the solution but... FIRST has to be involved in a formal way. If FIRST isn't, then the regions/areas/teams/competitions can be branded with a different acronym: DOT - Doing Our Thing. In other words, drift and separation can form, esp. as FIRST spreads internationally. As the veteran teams strengthen and mature into more and more high caliber HoF-worthy teams - they certainly know how to address sustainability and are very willing to share what they know. The problem is - there are not enough. For example, not in a state the size of Texas. Think beyond that and into other countries where FRC is just beginning to develop a root system. Here's an example - off seasons. Look at how off seasons help strengthen teams, including pre-rookies and rookies. Where are the off seasons and how is their importance and value being studied and acknowledged by FIRST? Look at that, recognize it and talk with the partners about helping partially fund or fully fund an off season event. FIRST doesn't have to be officially involved in an area off season but the folks who are making money available sure could be. For a very good, wise, and effective purpose.

I often talk about pulling in the WFAs, the Senior Mentors, the HoF teams, the visionary leadership from the teams, themselves, and working closely with the official decision-makers of FIRST in getting the importance of sustainability and consistency in building robust teams who build robust robots who build robust teams :) out there. Watching the program move into more of a mainstream mode - look at the partnerships that are happening with FIRST and powerful companies that can spread the word and are doing so. Goodness. But what needs to run ahead of and follow along very closely on the heels of development of new teams, new venues for competitions, new growth - must be the strength and wisdom of experience. That strength and wisdom of experience helps to fortify the new foundations being planned/laid/tested and there is not enough of it. It can only grow and develop and become robust enough to run ahead of and follow on the heels of the new growth - by having support and recognition given to it.

What I mean by building a sustainable team and/or region means - bringing all of the skills needed to the table to make that happen. Funding is important. How to use that funding is as important. How to set short term and long term goals to plan how to use that funding and then implement it is just as important. But - that's just one piece of the complex pie. Just one piece - there are several. All of those should be addressed, examined, explored, and worked with - by partnerships within the FIRST community, among which are the FIRST powers-that-be and their sponsors and partnerships.

It's too late to turn back - the only way is forward. Together - with a plan.

Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I've been tempted to post about "oh, teams fail for money reasons all the time" and some kind of silly counterargument or whatever, but with some hesitation I think that's a little silly. Enough teams fail for every reason that we might as well focus on all of them. I even have some "hypothetical" examples in there not based on any real world cases I'm a part of at all. :rolleyes:

Fundraising on its own looks and can be very easy, especially for autonomous 501c3 teams. I think 501c3's have by far the easiest time with funding and it's not a coincidence that many big and successful teams exist this way. However, it sometimes gets a lot harder. Teams in school districts often have to have money donated to the school "for robotics". That alone cuts off some sponsorships. Sometimes the district has to approve every kind of fundraiser you do, and may prohibit particular fundraisers. Sometimes the paperwork takes a month so you can't even do any after a particular point.

The way around this particular problem fundraising wise is usually to be a big force. Get a lot of student interest and a lot of students with scholarships. Win regionals, Chairman's, and trophies to get a lot of respect and media attention for the team and school. Once you're successful enough to impress the school board they can help you get around some of these restrictions when they realize your club takes thousands more to run than the baking club. The problem is this generally is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. You need to win to get attention and respect as an organization, but having that helps you get the resources to win...

Leadership is a big thing. Most teams can't survive leadership changes, or the loss of a head mentor. I don't think there's really a way around this, other than to stop adding hundreds of rookies every season. If all the regions had ton of dedicated mentors just waiting for a robotics team to pour their soul into, no team would ever fail. If a team actually loses a dedicated mentor to a school budget cut or a layoff at a sponsor shop, that's really just a bad situation you usually can't get out of unless you've built up a large dream team of mentors already.

Sometimes your district can really bite you too. This has happened to a few teams I know of. Robotics teams are a large drain on resources relative to any other club, and schools are hesitant at best to put robotics teams on the same pedestal they put athletes, which is stupid but inevitable. What do teams that want to be sustainable do if they get hard limits on school time every week? What if they get 2 hour workdays, 5 days a week for example? That's the big question I don't have an answer for.

I think the best things we could do to try and help these teams with sustainability problems:

• Teach teams how to fundraise. Grants are giving a team a fish, teaching them how to fundraise effectively and around their district's policies will keep them going. (on a related note, anyone got any tips for my team?)
• Help teams get more mentorship, and stop starting a billion rookies unless those rookies all have good mentor support as well. There aren't many ways to really combat the second problem though, sometimes you start off GREAT and get unlucky.
• Get some information and pro tips out there to help teams work with their district, or better yet, have some of the better off teams write letters or talk to "uncooperative" districts about how great robotics is aand why they should be supportive.

Sorry for the long, rambling post.
I hope some of the content up there was useful to someone. I think I'm just really frustrated right now and this is my way of getting that out.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

It's difficult to do that when HQ's outwardly visible goal seems to be "start as many teams as humanly possible".

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Quick thought: Instead if grants, dollar-for-dollar endowments. Instead of giving a team so much money, give it as much money as it fundraised, up to a certain point (maybe $10-15k). Good alternative to straight grants, makes getting funding easier while acclimating a team to getting funding, so they aren't a fish out of water when the grant runs out.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

What I'm seeing is that there are 3 distinct sources of non-sustainability, and a wide range of solutions. This is just a summary post; feel free to add to it or take issue with something I say as you will.

1. Funding.
--Solutions vary depending on team situation, ranging from find more sponsors to convince the school/district to let them raise more (or fund them more). Grants are a band-aid, not stitches. A matching grant, as Basel proposed, would be a longer-term patch, but not necessarily a permanent fix.

2. Leadership/Mentor/Student Involvement.
--Students are relatively easy--recruit more. OK, so you do have to convince them that non-nerds can do it, but that's not much of a hurdle. The bigger problem is if a key leader has to step down and there is no succession plan. The best bet is to have several mentors; second best is to have a definite plan such that if Head Mentor A is transferred to a point five states away, Mentor B (or, in the case of teacher-advisers, some other teacher at the school) steps up for a while.

3. School/District Involvement, or Lack Thereof.
--Which is worse: the district ignoring you, other than "Oh, we have a robotics club? That's nice", or the district stepping in and placing limits on you, along with their funding your registration? Either way, it's got the potential to be bad. Awareness is key here. While I wouldn't suggest kidnapping a superintendent or principal and hauling them off to competition, telling them a) that you exist, b) that you want to keep existing, and c) that you'd really, really, really like them to show up at your competition on X date is certainly acceptable, and in fact encouraged. Community awareness helps too--administrators are more likely to listen to the people that pay their salaries (aka taxpayers for public schools, parents for private schools) than to students.

--Independence from a school district is another option, but you really need help to get started if you're going that route so that you don't run into any serious trouble with the law (IRS tax codes and non-profit status come to mind).

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

[quote=EricH;976637]What I'm seeing is that there are 3 distinct sources of non-sustainability, and a wide range of solutions. This is just a summary post; feel free to add to it or take issue with something I say as you will.

1. Funding.

2. Leadership/Mentor/Student Involvement.

3. School/District Involvement, or Lack Thereof.

[quote]

One word: Alumni

I have always wondered if/when FIRST could become self-sustaining. As the program graduates more and more students each year it builds an alumni base who knows what the program has done for them, and if they return to help, what they are doing for the kids involved today. Here is how I see them helping in all 3 categories you specified.

1. Funding.
Many alumni go to college and likely make some decent money (50k+) coming out of school. Some of them will eventually go on to make substantially more than that, and maybe even a few will start the next Google, I-Robot, or Facebook. Even if an alumnus doesn't own a company they are still the best person for convincing the company they work for that sponsoring a FIRST team is a good idea. I think it will take alumni being 10-15 years out of high school before they have enough pull in their company or own a business that could substantially help teams. However, FIRST has grown exponentially, and therefore the number of these alumni is currently growing exponentially. On 177, most of our mentors are FIRST alumni. These alumni request support of the team and also donate a couple hundred dollars out of pocket also, usually in the form of robot parts.

2. Leadership/Mentor/Student Involvement.
As an alumnus I actually find mentoring more fun than participating as a student. I think many alumni would find this and therefore be willing to mentor. If alumni are willing to mentor and lead at least the technical portion of the team, it takes the load off of the high school mentor and hopefully allows them to avoid burnout. If you benchmark teams with 10+ years of sustainment I would bet they have a dedicated teacher and engineering mentor who successfully divide up the workload. A teacher will be more likely to start a team if they know they have help from someone that has done this before. Again, 177 has many mentors who are FIRST Alumni and this helps with our sustainability by knowing what to expect every year, operating efficiently, and having. I should clarify that these alumni are 6-13 years out of high school, not the kids that graduated last year. This is an important note as I do not think FIRST should be asking kids in college to be starting or help save teams. In the student involvement area, alumni probably can't do much here except maybe talk at a school assembly about what participating has done for them or ensure that a team is fun for the students so they tell their friends.

3. School/District Involvement, or Lack Thereof.
Just like alumni speaking at a school assembly to recruit students, alumni should be used to gain district involvement. Again, if someone is a product of the process, requesting support of the process is a lot easier if the product is standing in front of them. Alumni should be encouraged to go to Board of Ed meetings to stand up for the program. If the alumni lives in town, that is even better because they are also a taxpayer. On Bobcat Robotics we also try to keep track of what the program has produced. We like to note that students graduating from the team combined have received over $500,000 in college scholarships related to FIRST.


There are many methods and resources which could be used to ensure sustainability of a team. I think alumni are one which is not used as well as it could be.

-EOB

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

FIRST's stated goal is to do exactly that - start a team in every school.

Most schools have a football, basket, baseball team along with a marching band and other programs. They are very costly and in this part of the world they are paid for by booster organizations. The facilities and fields owned by the school but the operational and maintenance cost are paid for by the booster organizations and/or team fees.

Teams's are autonomous entities and not under teleoperated control by HQ when it comes to fundraising.

Sports and music programs do not go to their 'HQ' when they need money. Why should we be any different ? It isn't because of cost. The per student cost of our robotics programs is on par and several cases less than that of the sports / music programs.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

No one is saying FIRST should pay for teams, but maybe FIRST should stop giving so much less help and attention to teams that exist for more than one year.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I think FIRST (or us on CD) should start a buddy program in which rookie teams are paired up with veterans for there first season. Obviously, the veteran team would have to consent, but there are enough teams now to have at least a 5 year old team for every new rookie. These old teams would get the new teams up to speed answering questions via phone, conference call, ect; or if close, even in person. They could go over things rookies would have no idea about such as game analysis, scouting, wiring, programming, sponsorships, even time management. This would greatly lower the chances of a rookie team failing after their first year. Plus if they chose, the buddy teams could stay in contact in years following. This is the sort of thing that would draw the FIRST community even closer; building connections and friendships between teams that will last for years to come.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I think what's trying to be said, is that while FIRST wants to have a team in every school (which is an acceptable goal), that will never happen if they don't make at least an effort to help some of the teams that are in need, since there are teams continually dropping while FIRST focuses on starting new teams. Of course, there may never be a year where no teams leave the program, but you should at least try to retain the ones that can be helped.

On the subject of stubborn school districts, we had to overcome some hurdles to even have a team last season. They even allowed us to continue operating without a school teacher (our engineering mentor runs double-duty). The reason why we're still here? The students. When they caught wind that there would not be a team this year, they bugged the heck out of the school board, pushed to find the residue funding from the year before, and recruited plenty of other students.

If you're having a hard time with the board, see if any of your students are related or close to a board member and can speak to one of the members. Make a short presentation to present the board at the next open meeting. Invite the members to the competitions, outreach, and even the team meetings. Sometimes, it's just a case of ignorance. They see thousands of dollars going out to some club, but may not know what's going on, or why they should continue supporting it.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Switch from discussing a single program (FIRST) to discussing, STEM, Robotics, and Inspiration; and you find that there are many, many opportunities for college students (VRCC came to mind immediately for me).

While "we" continue to invest in FIRST because it supplies a large return on our investments, we should remember that FIRST is a subset of STEM and Robotics competitions. We make a mistake if we assume that it is the only game in town.

Regardless, your point about guiding each STEM/FIRST alumnus to invest in the next generations is still valid. Perhaps just not in full-blown FRC mentoring while they are in college. FRC can be a huge time sink.

Blake

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

The several comparisons between/among STEM robotics programs and sort-of similar arts or athletics programs brought this "question" to mind.

Painting with a very broad brush...

Are the arts and athletics programs sustained by their communities (time, $ and votes); while the robotics programs are sustained by grants and individuals?

If the answer is yes, and if this dichotomy is at the root of many of the symptoms we have listed in this thread, then I think attending to the root cause of our "problems", and having a realistic expectation for the time, $ and effort necessary to affect changes, will lead to strategies for investing that time and energy wisely in sustainable projects.

Let's try an analogy

Sowing expensive seeds in thin or rocky soil, in an attempt to quickly feed the world is a waste of scarce resources. Instead, sowing those seeds in decent soil and living off the yield while you simultaneously get the other soil ready to produce crops is a way to maximize long-term yields. Prep'ing that currently poor soil might take 50 years, or it might take 50 days.

If the answer is that it will take 50 years, then trying to accomplish it in 50 days or 50 months is a good way to create fragile houses of cards, and create a lot of heartburn, confusion and waste.

Also, if in the agriculture analogy the current answer is 50 years, trying experiments to see if you can find a way to cut that time down to 5 years is a smart investment; but until the experiments pay off, don't gamble unwisely using blind luck as a guide.

If pouring externally supplied fertilizer on the poor soil is one way to (appear to) speed things up, pay careful attention to whether that fertilizer might some day run out.

Perhaps starting an FRC team in a "new" location isn't the first step to creating a sustainable STEM inspiration program. Maybe it is one of the last???

Blake

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I believe this system is in place -- or at least it was. In TIMS there was/is a "willing to mentor" and "want to be mentored" check box. When 1276 was a rookie, we were blessed to have 133 as our mentoring team. Even though they met several hours away, their head mentors came down once before the season, once in the middle of the season, and a few days before the end of the season. Their advice as invaluable, and a huge help in getting a rookie team with no idea what they were doing off the ground. We even broke a gearbox at our first regional, and since they knew what the failure was and how to best quickly fix it, they came over with a big crew to help us out, despite the fact that their robot was also in desperate need of repairs!

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

As someone who learns a lot about soil enrichment, expensive seed, and the costs/impact of fertilizer due to the fact that I'm married to someone who does this for a living - I like some of the analogies you are making. When thinking about the fertilizer (and to an extent the seeding process), we also have to take into account and look at the cost/waste of run off and how to help prevent it or minimize it as well.

I'm liking this a lot.

Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I agree.

Teams who do not receive enough support from mentors and their schools are extremely vulnerable. My guess is that the most fatal or devastating to an FRC team is when they lose mentors (not just because this can mean losing a monetary sponsor as well). When a team loses mentors they lose guidance which without how can students hope to learn the skills necessary to run a team. This statement may not apply to very established teams because those teams have a strong support system and foundation. But for teams who have essentially restarted from scratch each year this sort of foundation and stability is nonexistent and as such the team can fail if they lose that critical student who has been the backbone of the team.

Basically when a team is carried on the back of one or a few team members that team's lifespan (generally speaking) is limited to four years (graduating from high school). If we could figure out how to teach students how to be leaders (not just get something done) but how to manage an organization and tell other team members what to do.

Over this summer I have realized that a FIRST robotics team is much more like a small business than anything else (well at least my team) and as such when a team is composed completely of robot builders and technical people that team cannot exist just like a company cannot exist if it is only made up of engineers.

Again this only applies to teams that are completely student-run due to a lack of mentors/advisors.

I hope some of this ramble makes sense.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

To continue that analogy then, it's time FIRST remembers to fertilize and water existing teams.

A perfect example is a new FIM program in conjunction with JC Pennys. JC Penny is trying to sponsor NEW teams near their stores. If an existing team starts a new team and gets them up and running, they get a nice chuck of cash as well from JC Penny.

THAT is the type of self-promoting FIRST needs to do. It's the perfect combination of starting a new team and supporting the old. Go a step further though. Convince the sponsor to support not just the new team, but become a permanent sponsor of the existing one as well (If the team budget is below a certain level).

Another example: part of team system is that we will lower the amount a student pays to join based on how much they fundraise. Why doesn't FIRST offer a similar incentive for starting new FLL teams and FIRST teams?

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I don't really think "start a new team and get money" solves the problem. If anything it makes it worse. There's no financial incentive to help any team that's not brand new, and if you're on the brink of failure maybe you don't have the resources to start 10 or 15 FLL teams. It's great for exponential growth, but that doesn't make any team any more sustainable.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Many teams make ends meet year to year, stretching all of their resources each year to do that. It is good to take a step back and look at what would help the teams move beyond piecing it together like that:

- Savings/working towards saving money for 1 to 2 years ahead.

- Investing in and stabilizing the team in the areas that help guarantee consistency and sustainability. We've learned the value of veteran team members working with and mentoring the younger/newer team members as we move from year to year. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it's a flop - especially when a large pool of seniors graduate and not enough training/mentoring has taken place consistently to keep the team on the level it was. Then we are prone to seeing dips in performance and achievement until we take the time to re-evaluate and stabilize. Same thing with the Parents' Association. Training/mentoring/tweaking/fine-tuning/adapting to change are constants. Teams that understand that and continue to monitor the growth and development of their team are the ones who understand how important all of this is and how valuable it could be when shared with teams who are struggling and who may not be aware of or have the resources/people power to develop in this area. Or - think they don't. I've found that those assumptions (and the attitude that goes with them) can stifle growth and development more than the reality can. Watching a team bust through those assumptions and embrace their own path of challenges and where they want to go with them - is very cool.

Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Would this be a good thread to list some of the initiatives that FIRST (both HQ direct and approved from HQ) to help teams continue to be sustainable?

I keep debating (in my head) if this is an idea generation thread, sharing best practices thread, or a rallying thread (that would culminate in some sort of letter, or something else).

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

So as FIRST in Texas will need to start the work now to sustain the efforts of the last two years and the current big potential influx of new FTC and FRC teams, Idea generation and if not more important, listing of best practices will be a great help. What has been done by FIRST organizations to help sustain teams that has worked in other regions? You can send me a pm or an email with details if a discussion needs to transpire to facilitate a more complete understanding on my part.:cool:

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Let's face it. Keeping a good FRC team running requires a great deal of money and passionate, dedicated leadership.

It's no surprise that the money has become very difficult to come by over the past two years. Our school systems graciously provides Downingtown Area Robotics (FRC Team 1640) with space and supports the program, but not with money any longer. It's simply not available. Corporate sponsors have also become harder to find; even companies which are performing well today are managing their cash very carefully. This year, for the very first time ever, we are asking students to contribute a portion of the cost of running the Team. This is in addition to participation in fund-raising events. We simply have no choice. I'll let you all know how this turns out.

The second big cause of team failure is loss of leadership. Burn out is one issue (it takes a lot of time to lead an FRC team). Career changes. Health. Companies manage this through succession planning and head-hunting. This is a little harder to do in an all-volunteer organization. 1640 went through such a crisis 4 years ago and our survival was a very near thing at the time. Fortunately, a very few highly dedicated people pulled the team through the crisis.

Fortunately, loss of interest doesn't seem to be a big problem.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I have to say this to the CD community, kudos to you for recognizing a strong need that will truly need to be addressed soon.

"And where there is a will, there is a way!" And since we obviously have a will, we WILL come up with a solution to strengthen our collective selves.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Hi Jane
Good topic. I have found over the past 5 years the demand for teams to ask for help has been an exponential function. I used to go to every team that asked for a SolidWorks workshop from the Pink Flamingos (FLL) to the FRC teams in New England. Even my colleagues have pitched in. But when the number got too large we had to think of something else that was more sustainable from a company point of view.

That is why we decided to create video tutorials www.SolidWorks.com/robotics
Certainly video is not live - but it is a start and something to do in the off season to get stronger. It also allows us to help out our customers that mentor not only FIRST teams but also a variety of other robot competitions worldwide.

Luckily most people I work with are engineers and many volunteer at events and with teams. Also our user group network has been helpful www.swugn.org. to many FIRST teams. Still demand exceeds the need.

Marie

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

FIRST website has a category titled "Team Sustainability" under FRC resources. http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...nt.aspx?id=478

Needs some updating.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I think if teams don't have strong support from the school district and their sponsors it make things tough for them but if you don't have strong mentor support the team will not last very long no matter how dedicated the students are. Once they graduate who will bear the torch then? You need good mentors to keep the firs burning.
Our team has been very fortunate to last from the inaugural year of FIRST. We've been blessed with strong support from Xerox, from Wilson Magnet High School and mostly from long term mentors who have been on the team for well over 18 years. Without them the team would not survive.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

This is a very cool post coming from the viewpoint of one of the companies that 'gets' FIRST. It would be helpful to see more of these viewpoints and to understand them and also, for sponsors and potential sponsors to see and think of ways to help with the sustainability issues. Very cool, Marie. Thank you!

--
Here's some questions regarding alumni. As Ed has pointed out - instability can occur for various reasons that he has mentioned and for other reasons as well. "Who will bear the torch for the students once they graduate?" How are teams and their alumni keeping the alumni involved and interested in the continual growth and development of the team? There are so many areas that alumni can help in just by being a felt presence of support for the current team. How can they help with the sustainability areas for their team and for teams in areas where they now reside? How can they be made or encouraged to understand that they are valuable still?

Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

A couple of thoughts. When students graduate from high school they move onto a new segment of their lives. College, career, marriage, family, military service, whatever; which usually leaves little time for things like FIRST. I think it is more realistic to expect to see them reappear 5 or 6 years after college. Which is a good thing in that FIRST has grown to the point that we take it for granted that it will be around in 5 years.

Another under the fund raising flag is the proportional relationship between team growth, number of teams in an area, and the size of the pie that the teams are trying to slice up. Or in other words in a small or medium sized city there is a finite number of business and resources for teams to approach for sponsorship. As the number of teams in a given area increases the slice of the pie for each team can get smaller and some teams will be squeezed out if they do not put the same effort into fund raising as other teams. Like it or not, I believe this to be a truth, and there are lessons to be learned here also.
my $.02

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Jane,

I can't thank you enough for starting this particular post. This issue is so critical to the survivability of FIRST in general. We have been forced over the last year to really look at our team and deterrnine what we need to do to survive from almost all of the aspects I have seen all of you write about.

All of the comments that I have seen point to difficulties that evolve as a team evolves. Sometimes it is funding disappearing, but when the team solves those problems, it may the illness or burnout of a key mentor. While it would be nice if FIRST could present us with solutions to those problems, FIRST is evolving as we do. I don't think that they have the facilities and experience that the teams have at this point.

Some of the programs that our team is working hard on developing include a mentor training program to help the burnout and mentor loss issues, diversification of funding for team financial stability, team administration structure to support the coaches and mentors and school support to keep to keep the team in touch with the community and promote FIRST. I am sure we are just scratching the surface.

Thanks again Jane. It really is nice to know that all the teams deal with many of the same issues. Hopefully we will help each other to some real solutions.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Hm, this is a good point. I've read different posts over the years that skirt or touch on this thought but I've never seen it phrased so well, particularly, "I don't think that they have the facilities and experience that the teams have at this point." Perhaps they don't have the stability or ability to maintain the momentum for moving forward with this ever expanding growing program in a manner that helps sustain the ever expanding growth of the teams. Having new folks in key positions may provide opportunities to address the concerns and robust healthiness of the program, overall.

It's good to see you posting. :)
Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

As one of those alumni who has graduated, I'm helping to start a rookie team in my local community along with a coach from another FIRST team. I could have stayed with my current team, but there wasn't a need. They already have several coaches and a few alumni who pop in and out, but they still have a need as no FIRST team is ever perfect or can ever be perfect. I felt the need greater in the rookie team than in my team, which is true as it is currently just me and the coach and 12 students.

I hope we can create a successful team, I already see how people say rookie teams have it hard. :o

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

In my opinion, a key to sustainability and to growing a successful team, is experience. You are bringing that (along with inspiration, enthusiasm, and wisdom) to the new team. That's very cool.

Have fun and enjoy this new experience,
Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I can't speak for other local teams, yet after having more fun at an off-season event than we've ever had during a competition season event (from a holistic perspective) our new strategy seems to be register the $6k for 1 official event and get in the lottery for championships. NOT planning to go to St Louis and then winning a spot means we pay 30-60% more just because we didn't reserve transportation/hoteling far in advance.

If we don't make it to St Louis, then we will gladly attend 2-3 off-season events with the money we would have spent on the Championships. It has become very apparent to us that to spread FIRST's message at any accelerated rate is to do so at our own team's detriment in the form of sponsorship dollars that are spread very thin. So this year we will do more with less, for our own school's students (for once).

What kind of plan can FIRST enact to increase the amount of students without severely increasing the amount of burden upon the current mentors of a team (i.e. fundraising)? We all need to work on finding an answer. We all need to figure out how to keep from spending 25.3 million dollars on FRC every year. Right now FIRST incurs a cost of ~$600 per student (~$15k per team) just for a team to get a KOP and go to one regional (of which the team pays $6k). This is according to FIRST's 2009 annual report.

What can we do in addition to FIRST's current objectives (2-day events, MI model, etc) to increase quality while (at a minimum) maintaining costs? Sell light bulbs? Fund raise by recycling? Reduce the NFL-wannabe-ness of Regional events (i.e. hold higher quantity of smaller events in inexpensive venues culminating in REAL super bowls)? Should we agree to raise the bar of entry to a minimum amount of students per team? Or should we craft and enact programs to give incentives for teams in saturated areas to consolidate?

I do not believe my current FRC team will exist in 5 years unless the over-arching FRC model changes. Of course given that I didn't know Jack 5 years ago, who knows what I know now.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Money. Sports bring in money. People PAY to watch the football games/basketball games etc. Alumni donate because their high school made it to state. Robotics doesn't bring in money-not to the school, atleast. You can't compare building a new football stadium to spending that 50k on a team because the football stadium, in theory (atleast), brings in money.

Why is everyone so insistant that having a team in every highschool means every highschool has its own team? Having a team in every highschool is totally plausible. Milwaukee Public Schools (MPS) has atleast 20 high schools. If MPS had five or six FRC teams, we could cover all the highschools. How? By having one team be composed of multiple schools. There are a couple teams I know of that do this: MOE (365), More Robotics (1714), UPS (1675), CORE Robotics (2062), and I'm sure there are more.

The second quote supports my idea of combining schools (and maybe even teams). If two struggling teams with 7 kids and 7k combine, they have 14k and 14 kids (numbers are arbitrary). If you combine the three local schools of smallsville, state; then you have only one group asking the local businesses for money.

Just my thoughts, a little surprised no one else said that yet...

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Personally, I agree with you. It is a very good way to get around the worst things that would really get in the way of an effective and sustainable team. Team 93 also does this and we've had some success over the years.

[DEVIL'S ADVOCATE]However, but there is a problem you may have not noticed. Your effective presence at your main school becomes concentrated there, which has happened to N.A.C. Team 93 (my team). So in reality, you are really only effectively covering one school, not three. Why?

It comes down to word of mouth and logistics. Word of mouth is a problem because, let's face it, the people most likely to find FIRST are the friends of FIRSTer's. To circumvent this, a lot of communications and demos to spread the word around those other schools would have to done.

How does logistics come into play? Well, when most kids are freshmen, the time they are most likely to find out about and join FIRST, they probably don't have reliable transportation to and from your main location unless you figure something out.

Both problems are workable, but it requires a lot of extra work and even then not everyone who would love to will actually be able to participate. [/DEVIL'S ADVOCATE]

Point is, it isn't a perfect solution, although it is good. So a decision about which path would be taken would have to be made in each circumstance that would work the best for that particular school or group of schools.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Id just like to throw this in:

Our team has always been a one event team, which means about $5,000 for entry. All our parts were from our own old abandoned auto shop. That means we paid exactly the minimum every year. We had the NASA grant for 3 years, and no longer do. We are having SO much trouble getting just the 5,000 and whenever I read something like "Oh, our team just fell short of our $30,000 goal :( " I'm not gonna lie, it somewhat angers me.

I don't blame anyone specifically. I think the cause is being babied by NASA for all three years, then just being dumped on our own. I think the NASA grant is great in the short run, but ruins a team in the long run. I think what should be done is some sort of program from FIRST or anywhere really. Not a program that just gives the teams money, but one that shows them how to. How to get sponsors and host SUCCESSFUL fundraisers (which has eluded us).

Were at about ~$3,500 right now and have to I believe December 3rd to get 1,500. We had $1,000 left over from last years NASA grant and what little we did earn, $2,000 from the township, and the meek 500 we earned from September until now. I have major doubts we'll even be a team this year.

And it doesn't help coming from a school where were looked at as a "club" and no one knows what we really are and refuse to even go to one meeting. We handed out over 700 fliers for a pizza night at a place that donated %20 and we got $100, which we think most of was just donated from the pizza place out of pity.

</rant>

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

What exactly do you mean by the last line?

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Nothing to the other teams, I just get mixed emotions of "HOW?!?!?" and "Why can't we do that? Whats wrong with us?" and 200 other things go through my mind

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Frustration.

--
Do you sit down and work through/talk about the questions with your teammates?

I've had conversations w/folks about this. A concern that I have with young teams qualifying for monies but not receiving any type of training/understanding/encouragement in the areas of become self-sufficient and self-sustaining worries me. Your post has voiced my worries. I wasn't thinking of the NASA grant but I was thinking of other grants that I'm aware of. So many young teams are busy thinking about the upcoming/current season that they aren't thinking/projecting/planning for/setting goals for the future - when the monies are no longer available to them.

Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

No, Not with the entire team. Just a few..

This year we have about 20 kids. The $500 (not exactly, I think the real number is like $520) came from 5 kids, and I myself have got $270 of it from 3 businesses and I have our teams packets at 3 different businesses currently waiting to hear back from them.

Im not trying to take out frustration on anyone, I just don't get it. Sorry for hijacking this topic =/

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

You haven't. Your team is struggling to be self-sustaining. You are spot on.

Jane

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

It sounds like you have the desire, but the results aren't happening the way you like. You might want to do some research with other teams to find fundraising strategies that work for your team. It also sounds like you need to make the whole team aware of what needs to be raised, what they need to raise, and what methods you already thought of.

We raised 63k in 09, 35k last year, and are well on our way to 55k+ this year. In a poor agricultural town, with a small team. We're all normal people, it's just that the entire team is made aware of what we need to fundraise, and everyone is responsible for raising it (and we're willing to TRY anything).

Trust me, you get your ducks in a row, and you'll be raising way more than $5k easily.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I tried convincing the mentor to make a rule along the lines of each student is responsible for raising $100 and involving 3 businesses. He cut it down to $50 and one business. We have a packet that we made for them to take around to businesses, they just seem to not want to do it.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Brandon-

The problems you are having are not isolated to your team, I'm sure you are aware of that. This thread started because there are obviously issues with sustaining FRC teams, which is something your team is encountering as we speak.

I know you mentioned you're not mad at the teams that raise $30K+, but you have to understand what many of those teams do in this offseason. These teams work constantly to go after businesses, grants, the government and achieve their goal for each year. Use it as inspiration, and keep pushing forward with the ideal goal being to become a sustainable team that can reach its financial goals year after year.

The NASA grant is a blessing, it does not hurt a team in the long run. The problem is, teams don't anticipate the drop off in funding and then are left high and dry with no plan. That is entirely the fault of the team who received the grant, not NASA for trying to get a team up and running.

In Boston, there are many teams who started from a very large donation from a foundation (~$300K) which my team helped secure. The teams that started on this grant had their registration fee paid for their first 3 years of existence. After that, the teams were on their own. The first teams in this program were started around 5 years ago and their stories are mixed. Some have thrived and developed into self-sustaining FRC teams that we are all proud of. Others have shriveled and died as soon as the funding was cut. Some still live on, but struggle to stay afloat year after year.

It's the responsibility of the teams to keep themselves going after they lose funding. I know many 10+ year veteran teams who have lost their sponsor that was with them on day 1. Some of these sponsors provided $10K+ to the veteran teams. My home team (11) lost our sponsor my senior year of high school. Our team was left with no funding, but it inadvertently started a fire under our you-know-whats. We blanketed the area with letters and demos, and before we knew it we were bringing in 3X the amount of money we did when we had our one big sponsor.

The point is, every team has to face the same challenge. For some teams its easier than others, definitely. However, it doesn't mean your situation is impossible, or that it hasn't been conquered before. Reaching out to the FIRST community is a great start to get tips on how to not only stay afloat, but thrive in your current situation.

I wish you the best of luck, and keep up the hard work.

-Brando

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Fundraising is a bit like digging a well. Rivers, springs, ponds are easy to unerstand, you can see the water with your own eyes (these are grants). Unfortunately, in dry seasons, streams and ponds dry up.
Imagine however trying to explain to someone that if they put a ton of work into digging a hole, deep into the ground (not water), they could find water. That would sound absolutely crazy to them. Yet somehow, we have a lot of wells because they work. Don't be upset with the village that dug theeir well, but instead ask them how they knew where to find water. Many will tell you, "Well, first we tried a lot of things, most of which didn't work. Then we had success with a couple things and worked on doing those better."

As far as getting the kids motivated, put yourself in there shoes and ask 2 questions "Do you have the ability?", "Is it worth it?".


IKE

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Brandon, I think this link is worth mentioning here. Jenny Beatty posted it in another thread. NEMO isn't just another 4 letter acronym, it really helps. Many good bullet points from NEMO's site regarding fundraising are listed in the slide set Branding, Publicity and Fundraising by Sharlene Brown and Bill Duncan. My particularly favorite slide is the tiered approach via sponsorship levels, which also show what a sponsor can expect in return.

http://www.mdfirst.org/programs/firs...ining-day.html

Hope this helps you as much as it's helped us. FRC teams are really like small businesses (small NPO's actually) with few options to generate income -- yet we can't dismiss what's available to us because the opportunities are enough to get us through.

I think part of the frustration is that the bar to FRC entry is exceptionally high relative to the incomes of many communities.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Thanks for the shout out about NEMO, but just a clarification. The link goes to the mdfirst.org website and the sessions that were held this past Sat. for the Maryland teams (and any out of state team who asked to attend) hosted by the Baltimore Area Alliance teams. There will be more sessions posted. Bill is the new Asst. RD for Maryland and Sharlene is the VISTA. Bill brings a lot of marketing experience to his new position with FIRST. (He also served as the VISTA last year in MD.) He has also done a great job with the website.

But I agree, this ppt is a GREAT resource!

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I agree that the NASA grant is great and the fact that teams struggle after the grant is not NASA faults. But, what if the NASA grant (and other grants) required teams to create a fundrasing/sponsership plan before recieving the money? The plan doesn't have to be extremely detailed, but something so the team understands that eventually they will be responsible for funding their team.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

The 2nd year NASA grant requires that teams have already raised 6k for themselves.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

We had the NASA grant for 3 years and have never raised that much..

I have wrote an e-mail to the CS department at NJIT (I have some connections with them, so its worth a shot) that I'm afraid to send before I have someone look over it. Would anyone be willing to...?

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

I feel your pain....our team has been having a really tough year financially, despite efforts that started in the summer. Like someone said earlier, it is kinda tough to hear a team that's struggling with ~30K when our team habitually coasts on $5,000 plus maybe $600 for supplies, and we're having issues with that this year.

Part of the problem is that our school, besides small, is private and so the school can barely provide anything towards our team [people tend to think private-schooled kids are rolling in money, but they really aren't].

And oh gosh the NASA grant. We all had a very tough day today, we learned that we forgot to have our principal send the email to NASA certifying that we LOST our sponsor....just one SENTENCE added to the email certifying need for funding, was all that was needed, but we forgot it. We probably lost our chance at the grant because of that. We're beating ourselves up over that right now.

This is my senior year, I've absolutely loved FIRST and I really want to see our team have the chance to participate; there's a lot of new kids who are really excited, but don't have any clue what awesomeness they're in for. I do NOT want them to be unable to do FIRST because of a $1600 shortfall in funding. But it's getting really tense right now.

One problem we're facing this year is that most of our team graduated. It's hard to get corporate sponsorship when most of the team barely knows what FIRST's about. I [not to blow my own horn] have done an awful lot, but it still isn't enough and one person can't do everything.


This was going to be a great year: we have a 60% girls team, lots of students in all grades, a mentoring program worked out with the FLL teams we started at our school, several new mentors....lots of really awesome and enthused kids on the team. I really can't express how much I want them to be able to succeed! We've got a lot of exchange students too, think how cool for them to be able to take these memories back home. But now it's looking like we may not be able to afford FIRST.



Just tonight on CD I saw a post from an FRC team that can now only afford to do FTC. I'm really sad for that, and for all the other struggling teams out there right now. :(

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

My team has had similar experiences but somehow we have managed to make it through each year. According to what you describe you seem to have a really good program. It would be a real shame for a program like that to disappear for something like that. I hope you somehow manage to secure that funding.

For a few years my team all but disappeared when we lost school support. We moved into one of the team members garages for building and all of our 10+ Lego programs disappeared. At the same time the other team in our city failed after their NASA grant expired (we have since combined into one big team). To add to the hurt our main mentor ended up changing companies after my first season and our team was on its own. We did not know we would be able to participate until literally hours before the deadline to pay. Somehow we the money came through and we survived.

This year for us is a different story. We have reached out to our community (luckily we have a large industrial center) and they have supported us. Our funding has increased greatly despite losing more than half of our funding last-year when our sponsor was bought-out. We have worked non-stop over the summer and during the school year meeting weekly for fundraising. We have already gotten guarantees for ~12.5 thousand this year. We are lucky because we are the only team in our area and have a lot of businesses to reach out too. The reason this changed was that we got a new mentor who helped us set up the team like a business and taught us how to go about getting sponsors.

Hearing about teams going under due to funding is very saddening to me, because of how close my team came to that. I really hope that your team pulls through.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Thanks man :) It's good to hear the success stories too. We had one last year, heard about the NASA grant only days before it was due, our coach rammed it through in a hurry and somehow it came together. Hoping things work out this year.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Why do you think it's sad when a team chooses a more affordable program than FRC? I've mentored FRC, VRC, and FTC teams for the last seven years, and I personally believe that all of them can achieve the goal of inspiring students to pursue further education and careers in STEM fields. In a lot of ways, FRC makes the least sense (more expensive, more expensive per person, fewer chances to play, least sustainable, and lowest hands-on engineering ratio) of the three. This isn't FRC-bashing, as the program does have some unique positives, but I think it is wrong to assume that going to VRC or FTC is a step backwards.

I am far happier, and our students are thriving, in a VRC program that is well-funded, active, and successful. I've been on an FRC team on a shoestring and it isn't much fun. VRC and FTC are legitimate alternatives to FRC, especially for programs interested in value for the money invested. This also applies to BEST, MATES, and a variety of other programs, by the way. I know CD is FRC-centric, but it doesn't hurt to consider alternatives.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Its sad when any team (first or otherwise) that wants to continue what they are doing cannot.
It is good that although can't do what they have done in previous years they have found an alternative.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Well, because I would be very sad if our team couldn't take part in the unique experience that is FRC. So I guess I'm sort of projecting my own opinions on to the members of that team. I'm sure FTC is a great experience [there are certainly hordes of FTC teams in Oregon :) ] but for me, a senior, it would be a huge disappointment to not be able to do FRC in my last year. For incoming freshmen, it might be a completely satisfactory project.

This is word-of-mouth, but I've heard from mentors of the 6 local FRC teams, that FTC may not be as helpful in long-term real-world engineering experience as FRC. Oregon has a really strong focus on FLL and FTC, so it's a struggle for FRC coaches and so on to keep students from being funneled off into FTC.

That being said, I'm going to try and volunteer at the local FTC tournament this year [right during FRC build season, fun fun] and I could always get hooked on that ;)

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Ok, Adam - I'll take the bait. What ARE you guys doing for fundraising? (I'm assuming you are not talking about "team dues" or corporate/business funding as in grants or "sponsorship" but fundraising from your community. If you had 20 students in '09, each student brought in $1800.00 or $150/month. Every student, every month. That's a heck of a tally.

So...

How do you do it?

-Mr. Van
Robodox

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

We bring in a good deal, I don't know the exact figure, in low dollar community grants and donations from larger businesses. Primarily $100-$500 each. A few exceptions being matching corporate grants (family donates $2k, PG&E, etc.. matches it). We do not have any long term, committed $5k+ sponsors, it's all low dollar.

The difference between what we need to raise and what we raise from that is divided among the students. This year, it's $1800. Students are responsible for raising their portion, but we do A LOT to help them. They get 100% credit for any dollar they bring in on their own (soliciting business, grants, selling items, etc...), 50% of the money from an event they plan, and a portion of the money from an event they work it. They'll do car washes, bake sales, team nights at restaurants, etc... I won't go too much into how we fundraise, because it's the same as many teams do; it's the structure we have that encourages and makes students responsible for it that works for us.

We've found if students know what they need to raise, and are given many options, it's not an issue. We've never had a student just cut us a check for their amount, but we'd accept that as well.

In the past the students are very understanding about this; Once we talk they understand this isn't free, we wish it could be free, but it isn't, and therefore they must pull their weight.

Re: Sustainability In FRC Teams
 

Heh. Thanks for sharing the management technique Adam! We will try that next May, once we've finished our current plan. In the meantime, I'll see what we can incorporate into this season.