Chief Delphi - NASA Grant App posted

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Vikesrock

10-10-2010 22:24

NASA Grant App posted

Didn't see this posted anywhere else here.

The NASA Grant application has been posted.

http://rcs.arc.nasa.gov/rcs/app/directions.php

No Regional Challenge Grants this year, but the Sustainability Grants have been continued for another year alongside the rookie/2nd year grants.

sanddrag

11-10-2010 03:04

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Is anyone familiar with how these grants apply to VEX rookie teams? What exactly does it cover, and for what amount?

Billfred

11-10-2010 07:33

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 976805)

Is anyone familiar with how these grants apply to VEX rookie teams? What exactly does it cover, and for what amount?

It appears that the grant covers one event registration regardless of competition chosen.

That said, let me make sure I'm reading this correctly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Leon

Each year the Robotics Alliance Project awards hundreds of registration scholarships to school robotic teams across the country. These awards are selected out of hundreds of proposals through an intensive agency wide review process. Last year over 400 registration scholarships were awarded to Teams for BOTBALL, BEST, FIRST, NURC and VEX. NASA will again conduct the Robotics Competition Registration Proposal Process as it has over the past decade. NASA is currently in the process of selecting an organization to address our requirement to inspire students in the arena of medium scale autonomous and remote controlled robotics competitions. NASA's intended outcome with this requirement is to generate a larger and very capable robotics engineering workforce. The Robotics Outreach Competition (ROC) Cooperative Agreement Notice (CAN) has been issued to meet our requirements in this area.

This year the Robotics Competition Registration Proposal Process is designed to select awards for the winner of ROC-CAN. Unfortunately the organization to administer this opportunity has not yet been selected. Your proposal will be ranked with hundreds of other similar proposals. The highest ranking proposals will be given preference for awards. If your proposal is awarded and your proposal falls within the scope of the ROC winner, then your registration cost will be covered for the requested event. If the event is full you may transfer the award to another event inside of the ROC. If your proposal does not fall within the scope of the ROC winner NASA apologizes that we will be unable to award you a scholarship for your requested competition at this time, with one caveat. That caveat being at NASA's discretion we may choose to award registration scholarships for some of the winning proposals. The number and type of proposals that will be awarded will be limited by the scope of NASA's existing procurement mechanisms. If such an opportunity becomes available for you NASA will contact you. NASA will continue to sponsor other complementary robotics competition activities to insure that our future needs can be met.

Let me make sure I've got this straight:

-NASA is soliciting grants for all robotics competitions.
-NASA has not selected an organization to stage the competitions that they will support, but will select one organization.
-If your competition's organization is selected and your grant is approved, you get the money.
-If your competition's organization is not selected, then your grant is not approved...but NASA may still be able to support you depending on their procurement rules.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing--as a taxpayer, I'm glad NASA is examining the best use of its resources--but I'm also trying to make sense of the new language included in this year's announcement.

Trying to Help

11-10-2010 15:46

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Thanks for the the thread posting. I also saw the announcement today. I suspect that a lot of organizations will be thinking hard about the grant application process.

Trying to Help

Travis Hoffman

11-10-2010 17:28

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 976811)

It appears that the grant covers one event registration regardless of competition chosen.

That said, let me make sure I'm reading this correctly:

Let me make sure I've got this straight:

-NASA is soliciting grants for all robotics competitions.
-NASA has not selected an organization to stage the competitions that they will support, but will select one organization.
-If your competition's organization is selected and your grant is approved, you get the money.
-If your competition's organization is not selected, then your grant is not approved...but NASA may still be able to support you depending on their procurement rules.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing--as a taxpayer, I'm glad NASA is examining the best use of its resources--but I'm also trying to make sense of the new language included in this year's announcement.

I am asking someone in the know like Dave Lavery to post in this thread and verify Billfred's assessment.

It seems clear that there will be no Regional Challenge grants this year, which makes sense, since FRC has not been named as a ROC winner, and they can't specify grants specific to any one robotics competition. A natural question would be then - does NASA expect to fund additional Program Growth and Sustaining Grants to make up for the removal of the Regional Challenge grant funding?

What is most perplexing to me is that the language of Mark Leon's message constantly refers to a singular ROC "winner" that is yet to be determined; however, it is mentioned how in past years, teams from a variety of robotics competitions such as FIRST, BotBall, BEST, VRC, NURC, etc. have received NASA grant support. Is that changing? I'm sure teams who participate in these robotics competitions would appreciate some *official* enlightment regarding the decision status and nature of this new "ROC-CAN" selection process and what it potentially means for them. Getting a general idea of when the official ROC selection will be finalized would also be a plus, if such information is available.

Andrew Schuetze

11-10-2010 19:45

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Don't know if this information on the FIRST website helps clarify anything at all,

NASA Grant Application Online Process
Begins 10/08/2010 and ends 10/30/2010 at 11:59 PM EST
Grant winner announced by region Planned 11/24/2010
http://robotics.nasa.gov

ChuckDickerson

11-10-2010 23:19

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman (Post 976845)

Travis, have you seen this? It will probably help answer some of your questions. Particularly section 3.

I am guessing Billfred's assessment is reasonable.

As far as I can tell, probably for contracting reasons, NASA is trying to not play favorites with FIRST. No "Program Growth" grants this year that have historically been FIRST specific, no requirement for grant award winners to submit a Chairman's Award this year, again FIRST specific, etc. This year's NASA grant application seems more generic and open to all the major robotics competitions than I remember in the past.

From what I can gather NASA has reached some sort of contracting issue or limit with the way they have done the grants in the past and are now going through new contracting procedures. I'm just guessing here and have no idea how this is going to play out or effect the future of NASA support for FIRST, VEX, BotBall, NURC, BEST, etc. but hopefully things will be bigger and better for all. I guess we will all find out in early January. The anticipated award date is January 7th. Oddly the CAN has a typo stating January 7th, 2010 but it should obviously be 2011. Hmm, Sure would make for a big anouncement at Kickoff wouldn't it?

Billfred

12-10-2010 00:08

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepWater (Post 976882)

As far as I can tell, probably for contracting reasons, NASA is trying to not play favorites with FIRST. No "Program Growth" grants this year that have historically been FIRST specific, no requirement for grant award winners to submit a Chairman's Award this year, again FIRST specific, etc. This year's NASA grant application seems more generic and open to all the major robotics competitions than I remember in the past.

At the same time, some of the milestones in this CAN sound pretty FRC-specific...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milestone ROCM-G3-O3

Exercise robotics Competitions that utilize Robot weighing over 40 Kilograms and with a volume greater than 0.8 cubic meters

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCM-G2-O10

Require high school complete project with a set of parts with in a set time period of at least 1 month but not to exceed 2 months.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCM-G2-O6

Exercise robotics Competitions that generate and average of 20 students or more per team

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCM-G1-O4-R2

Develop Competition that will develop skills in computer animation

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCM-G5-O10

The competition season should officially begin no sooner than 1 month after all High Schools have begun their high school year.

I don't claim to analyze federal government documents any better than the next man, but these milestones (and several others in the linked document) would seem to greatly limit the chances of BEST, VRC, FTC, NURC, and Botball from winning the CAN (and thus limiting their teams' support to the as-we-can-swing-it basis laid out as before).

Take from this what you will.

gblake

12-10-2010 08:57

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Color me confused.

Mark Leon's introduction talks about past support of many STEM programs and invites teams to apply for competition registration grants.

However, common sense would say that handing out a lot of money, $50 to $500 at a time, would be inefficient. That hints that the grant approval process is tilted toward writing big checks for expensive competitions' fees (FIRST's big blow-outs come to mind).

Similarly, if the $4M CAN at the URL in DeepWater's message describes the strings attached to the big pot of money from which the registration grants will be doled out; teams other than FRC teams need not apply. Does that CAN apply to the money behind this grant opportunity?

So... Are Mr Leon's references to to programs other than FIRST simply references to past accomplishments or are they supposed to encourage teams from many STEM programs to apply?

If they are supposed to encourage non-FRC teams to apply, then the dollars to be awarded need to come from sources that are not governed by the particular CAN DeepWater linked us to.

Finally this statement at the end of this RAP page puts the nails in the coffin for me. "Demonstrate at least $6,000 of existing corporate or community funding,"

I will be completely flabbergasted to learn that any single team in a program outside of FRC requires both that sort of sponsorship, and needs a NASA grant to pay registration fees. I can see a group of several teams from a single location needing that sort of money; but not just one. However, I might just be ignorant of other expensive programs.

I'm going to be optimistic that NASA will continue to support the many successful non-FRC and non-FIRST programs Mark mentions in his opening remarks; but this particular opportunity appears to be for FRC teams.

Blake

JesseK

12-10-2010 09:15

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 976910)

Finally this statement at the end of this RAP page puts the nails in the coffin for me. "Demonstrate at least $6,000 of existing corporate or community funding,"

I will be completely flabbergasted to learn that any single team in a program outside of FRC requires both that sort of sponsorship, and needs a NASA grant to pay registration fees. I can see a group of several teams from a single location needing that sort of money; but not just one. However, I might just be ignorant of other expensive programs.

It costs a lot more than simple registration to run an FRC team: forget about all of the buttons, shirts, pit demos, and supposed 'nuance' things that seem frivolous to the robot itself. FRC still costs $12k assuming the regional is local (30 miles, no overnight stays), the KitBot is used, and no major tools are purchased. Teams have done it for less in the past, but I'd almost bet my collection of FRC coach badges that they prioritized of cost over all else in the design process.

gblake

12-10-2010 09:19

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 976911)

So I think we are agreeing - This grant application opportunity is aimed at FRC programs (or at FRC and some other expensive programs I don't know about) - Correct?

Mark McLeod

12-10-2010 10:20

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROCM-G5-O10

The competition season should officially begin no sooner than 1 month after all High Schools have begun their high school year.

FRC doesn't qualify for this since the official competition season opened with registration on September 30.

JesseK

12-10-2010 10:29

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod (Post 976914)

FRC doesn't qualify for this since the official competition season opened with registration on September 30.

I don't get it. What part of FRC registration says that the official competition season has begun?

Mark McLeod

12-10-2010 10:36

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 976915)

I don't get it. What part of FRC registration says that the official competition season has begun?

This statement seems to sum it up.

Quote:

Season Overview

The official FRC season starts with event registration in the fall, proceeds from the Kickoff in early January through the six-week robot design and build period, and continues to the robot shipment deadline in late February. The Regional events occur late February through early April, culminating at the FIRST Championship, which will be held in St. Louis from 2011 through 2013.

Although, I suppose a semantical argument might be the dates of the first competition event and the last event. That'd have to be published in a FIRST official document in those matching terms I suppose, but it'd be splitting hairs.

P.S.
This isn't to say that the grants won't apply to FRC. I'm sure it'll all be interpreted to our advantage.

P.P.S.
Havoc also occurs when you consider the southern hemisphere school calendar.
My daughter just got off Spring break in Australia...

Gary Dillard

12-10-2010 11:04

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod (Post 976917)

Since the FRC Manual (Rule R25) specifically says

Quote:

But absolutely no final design, fabrication, or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation.

I don't know how the beginning of the season and the beginning of the competition season could be equated.

Mark McLeod

12-10-2010 11:10

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Semantically, I don't see how that rule quote (from last year) can be applied. It makes no reference to a season at all, it only references a single day (Kickoff), when some FRC schools are not even in session much less a month afterwards. At least locate an official quote that says "competition season."

But I didn't mean to derail this thread into semantic arguments. I just like to poke fun at the difficulty of contractual wording...

Gary Dillard

12-10-2010 11:13

Re: NASA Grant App posted

I guess semantically it applies as much as your quote which doesn't refer to a competition season at all.

Mark McLeod

12-10-2010 11:16

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Touché :)

Gary Dillard

12-10-2010 11:27

Re: NASA Grant App posted

So this kinda got me interested in the "semantics", and there appear to be conflicting "inferred" definitions of the competition season in the 2010 manual.

Under definition of Withholding allowance, there is a note that refers to "the entire period between robot ship date and the start of the competition season", which would infer that it starts with the actual competition events. However, in Rule 25 an example of the fabrication schedule describes a part which is fabricated "during the competition season" being illegal because it was designed prior to kick-off, which would imply that the build season is part of the competition season and thus it starts at kick-off.

Hmmmmmm..............

RoboMom

12-10-2010 12:00

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Appreciate all the interpretations here from people I respect.
But as someone who is trying to mentor (ya know, all that non-robot stuff) teams and mentors both in FIRST programs as well as other robotics programs like VRC, I am flummoxed. For FRC teams, there is a considerable chunk of $$ maybe in the offering, and there are dozens of teams in this area who have benefited from this terrific partnership over the years.

But is this clearly not worth the effort for VRC?

ps. I would love to have a Mark/Gary thread on interpretations. I have a few I can throw in from my fat file "I'm really not making this up" but not appropriate for this thread.;)

Mark McLeod

12-10-2010 15:11

Re: NASA Grant App posted

I think it's still worth it to apply. NASA has still left the door open to do whatever they want.

Quote:

If your proposal does not fall within the scope of the ROC winner NASA apologizes that we will be unable to award you a scholarship for your requested competition at this time, with one caveat. That caveat being at NASA's discretion we may choose to award registration scholarships for some of the winning proposals.

Cory	13-10-2010 11:52

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepWater (Post 976882)

As far as I can tell, probably for contracting reasons, NASA is trying to not play favorites with FIRST.

From what I can gather NASA has reached some sort of contracting issue or limit with the way they have done the grants in the past and are now going through new contracting procedures

NASA's "Memorandum of Understanding" with FIRST that allocated funding and NASA support to FIRST has expired and must be rebid, essentially.

RoboMom

13-10-2010 11:56

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepWater (Post 976882)

Travis, have you seen this? It will probably help answer some of your questions. Particularly section 3.

Has this link been disabled?

ChuckDickerson

13-10-2010 12:03

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMom (Post 977040)

Has this link been disabled?

Works fine for me but try here: http://nspires.nasaprs.com/external/ then click "Solicitations" and look in the list for "Robotics Outreach Competition (ROC)" #NNA10332111C.

dlavery

14-10-2010 23:41

Re: NASA Grant App posted

I'll make this short and sweet, with a little practical advice:

For all the FRC teams interested in applying for a NASA team grant, do what you always do. Don't over-analyse the effects of the FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations) upon the contracting language that is being used right now to implement two different, but related, grant activities. Trying to understand every nuance behind all that other procurement-related stuff won't make it any easier to understand what you have to do to apply for a team grant, and will only give you a headache. Just do what you always do.

-dave

.

rick.oliver

20-10-2010 12:02

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 977201)

... , and will only give you a headache. Just do what you always do.

-dave

Thanks for the Tylenol.

RoboMom

20-10-2010 14:36

Re: NASA Grant App posted

From FRC Director's Blog:

Reminder: The NASA grant deadline is Saturday, October 30, 2010 – spread the word. FIRST is currently involved in a NASA grant competition for more than $20 million dollars over five years. Please do not reach out to any employee at NASA between now and December 3rd. It is a grant requirement that we do not contact any NASA employee regarding future NASA funding, this proposal, or team grants between now and the conclusion of this grant competition.

IndySam

26-10-2010 10:58

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 977201)

How are people viewing what Dave said?

Are you applying for regional challenge grants even if there are none stated in the grant app? Deadline is coming up real fast.

IndySam

24-11-2010 11:33

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Well today is supposed to be the day of the announcement of this years grants. I hope they don't make us wait until after thanksgiving :)

Good luck to the teams and a special thanks to everyone at NASA for the opportunity to apply and their hard work reviewing the applications.

Travis Hoffman

24-11-2010 12:23

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 981823)

Well today is supposed to be the day of the announcement of this years grants. I hope they don't make us wait until after thanksgiving :)

Jinx. :p

Akira

24-11-2010 12:58

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Anyone know when they'll post the winners of this year's grant? If today's not the day that is... is it?

Also, whats the percentage of a 9-year veteran team receiving the sustaining grant?

Thanks

Vikesrock

24-11-2010 15:14

Re: NASA Grant App posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira (Post 981832)

Anyone know when they'll post the winners of this year's grant? If today's not the day that is... is it?

Also, whats the percentage of a 9-year veteran team receiving the sustaining grant?

Thanks

I'm not sure anyone outside of NASA could tell you what your odds are of getting a grant.

As to when the winners will be announced, it was supposed to be today, but a FIRST email sent out today says next week now.

IndySam

24-11-2010 15:38

Re: NASA Grant App posted

sigh.........

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:31.