Largest team?
 

I was just wondering what the largest frc team was by student number and how it is organized. Also what do you guys thing the highest number of students a team should have and why?

Re: Largest team?
 

The largest team has to be (at least in NJ) is team 75. I think they have about 72 members (last year) although my team has gone up to about 50 or so members for the time being.

It depends on what the team does. If all your team does is build robots then you will need less people than a team that does any Business related things or the animations. I think a team should be around 20-25 kids. If you have to many then you will have kids just hanging out becoming dead weight. It also is best to have a smaller number when it comes to traveling to regionals that are farther away.

Re: Largest team?
 

234 had a team in the 70s a few years back.
That's a lot of proud grandmas.

Re: Largest team?
 

Team 1002 had 130 students a few years ago and team 180 SPAM is also pretty large. I think about a hundred kids.
I have no idea what all those kids do.

Re: Largest team?
 

I believe team 3138 has about 200 kids in their program...I think. The school is the "science and math" school in the county, so they draw the general student population that expresses interest in robotics.

With that said, I think with 200 kids in the robotics program, only about 20ish are involved in FRC.

I can't guarantee the numbers above, but I know they have a hella large program.

Re: Largest team?
 

"Also what do you guys thing the highest number of students a team should have and why?"

A team's size should be dependent on two things: student interest and student engagement.

First, student interest: Only students who are interested and want to gain something from the program should be there. There's no sense in "forcing" people to join just to have a bigger team, if those people aren't interested enough to be active participants.

Second, student engagement: You want to make sure all members of the team are engaged and have something to do. If you can only fit 20 people in your workspace, it doesn't make sense to have 50 people show up and 30 of them sit in the hall. I'm a firm believer, however, that there is enough to do with FIRST and on a team that the team would have to be ridiculously huge before you run out of things to do. Community engagement, fund raising, PR, etc are aspects that are often neglected by smaller teams, so their time can be spent building a robot to work.

There is one very important thing to remember in all of this: The larger the team, the more planning needs to be done to ensure everyone is engaged and active. Very large teams may not all meet at the same time or location every time - they may have groups that meet on different nights to complete specific tasks, or those involved with building the robot may be in a different physical location than those working on PR and fund raising.

Re: Largest team?
 

I completely agree, I'm only asking because we have around 80 kids interested in being on the team (this includes returning and new members). As far as space goes, we have enough room to hold that many kids, I'm just wondering if there's enough for 80 kids on an FRC team to do. We fully intend to do things such as fund raising and community outreach, but still that's a lot of students.

Re: Largest team?
 

I know Team 1002 covered a lot of volunteer spots at Peachtree Regional (and did a good job). The rest of the year? I'm with Ed.

Also, the larger the team, the more mentors you need. Plus, the amount of internal team communication goes up - or should go up - rapidly.

- Steve

Re: Largest team?
 

"adding manpower to a late software project makes it later" -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law

"If anything can go wrong, it will." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy%27s_Law

Remember those: too much people = bad.

It can be even thought of as a
People vs Work done chart.
It would be a parabola, you need to find the balance

Re: Largest team?
 

Too many people working on one project could potentially be an issue, but I wouldn't say that having a large team is inherently bad.

At 76 members, our team this year is the biggest it has ever been. Having a dedicated leadership team and having frequent communication allows the team to run smoothly.

Re: Largest team?
 

Not to offend you in any way, but the students on our team had a good laugh after reading this.

We actually have about 20 students on the FRC team now, but during the FRC season we had 10-12 students. We also are not in any way from a "science and math" school; we are not even school supported. We started our own non-profit organization that supports our team. The organization also supports around 9 FLL teams, 6 of which we started and funded, and we will be mentoring 2 FTC teams. If all of the students from the FLL and FTC teams are taken into consideration, we have just over 100 students involved. We also do demonstrations to thousands of students each year.

So depending on how you look at it, we could be considered large, but we feel that we are not even close to one of the largest teams, even if all the students that we mentor are accounted for.

One of the other teams from dayton, Deca Robotics (3186), has had a lot of students join their team lately and it is still growing, and they are from a specialized school. Maybe you were thinking of them?

Re: Largest team?
 

I'm pretty sure team 20 is up there. I don't know the specifics but think they've got upwards of 70 students last year.

Re: Largest team?
 

Just because things are called 'laws' doesn't mean they are true. Large corporations show that having a ton of people can lead to a ton of productivity.

Re: Largest team?
 

I don't know about the largest team, maybe 103 The Cybersonics. I seem to recall a time ('01 or '02) where one of their pit ambassadors told me their whole school was on the team. Don't know if they all did much with the robot, but that's just what I vaguely remember.

------------

With the Miracle Workerz, the largest number of students we've ever fielded in the FRC program was around 50 students (my rookie year) We've never had that many students since, as there was just not enough work to go around.

35-40 seems to be the best range of students for our program based on experience in prior seasons, what sub-teams/activities we run (for example, we don't always field an animation team), how we break into sub-teams, how many mentors we have, and available work/meeting space.

------------

We've been able to help reach more students (while not over-filling the team) by starting an FTC team for Freshman and any older students that can't/don't want to meet the more intensive attendance expectations that the FRC team requires. [Especially come build season] Those student then have some training, and a leg-up over new students wanting to join MOE; when they return as Sophomores.

Re: Largest team?
 

our team has about 12 people who actuary work on the robot.

Re: Largest team?
 

Wow reading this gives me the chills. Our robotics team (Whci Robotics 1514) only has 8 people.. with 3 of them being teachers LOL 1 contruction 1 organizer and the other mentor. I'll have to say that the bigger the more responsibility and more organizing to do, but if you have to less (8 people) that is just ridiculous. I think the teams with 20 people are very organized and their school is very involved. I sure hope a lot more people come out in the robotics this year. or we will be not done in enough time as usual.

team 1514

Re: Largest team?
 

Last year 1676 had 52 students who stayed through build season. This year we have about 42 returning and 50 (!) freshmen. We expect that 30 of those 50 will drop out before kickoff (our "Pi-Tech" requires some commitment) and a few more during the season, so we'll probably end up with about 55 active students.

Not everyone builds the robot. We have active non-tech teams as well - awards & business, for example.

We are organized in teams and subteams, mechanical usually being the largest with three subteams, drivetrain, chassis and manipulator. Late year we had 5 mechanical subteams (3 manipulators: Kick, Ball Handler and hook/winch), electrical, pneumatic, programming, and probably 3 or 4 non-tech subteams. The subteam leaders keep people productive (mostly).

Re: Largest team?
 

That may be true, but you have to consider the scale of their job, its international, it requires that many people. You got to think, they also have to balance their number of employees... Now if they hire too many, they would eventually start losing money through salary and other expenses for the employees. They also lose productivity along the line. Too little amount of people makes it harder for teh employees to do the work.

Re: Largest team?
 

No, that quote comes from a book called The Mythical Man Month by Fred Brooks. It deals specifically with teams of programmers working on one project. It comes from when you are behind on a project and management decides to bring in "fresh blood" to help speed up the project. This actually slows down the project due to training and organizational overhead involved in managing new programmers.*

For a FRC team, training should be taken care of during the off season and a plan for managing the number of students should already be in place and taken into account when making your schedule for the year. In short, Brooks' law should not apply to a FRC team with good leadership and organization.



*Not my opinion, this was a discussion from my course on Software Engineering.

Re: Largest team?
 

Team 2337 has about 20-25 student members, then 10-12 mentors. The majority of the students tend to work on the robot - non-robot manpower is mostly a couple of people.

The team is split up into three main areas: Mechanical, Electrical/Programming, and Off-Robot (not the official name). Mechanical has four sections: Chassis, Above Chassis (our hanging mechanism this year), CAD, and End Effector (our kicker and ball magnet). Electrical also has four sections - Electrical Wiring, Autonomous, Programming/Sensors, and Operator Interface. The Off-Robot has a bunch of different subsections mostly serviced by two or three people - Photography, Safety, Community Connections, Scouting, Chairman's, and Sponsorships.

Each main area has a student and mentor leader, and then each section also has a student and mentor leader.

Re: Largest team?
 

399 is at it's largest in quite a few years(around 65), according to our advisors.
This past year, the majority of our team was new.
This year, we have a nearly equal amount of rookies and veterans

Leadership:
We have one team manager, five subteam leaders for five subteams.

Communication:
The team sends out emails weekly. These contain the minutes for the week's meeting, upcoming dates and events, and other important tidbits of information. We also communicate with eachother through texting, so if something is important, it WILL get to you soon.

My advice to your team:
If someone(or a group) becomes obstructive and/or destructive, advise them to do homework, or send them home for some rest.
Should you have the joy of having that many genuinely interested members, effective communication and education is key.

Re: Largest team?
 

Murphy doesn't have a manpower bias, though; he doesn't really play into absolute team size. So it's true, "too" much of anything is bad. That doesn't mean a conventionally (or even arbitrarily) "large" number of students is bad. The key is to have something productive and engaging for them to do, and the infrastructure (mentorship, equipment, communication) for them to do it.

As to the OP, I'd say if you've got the mentors--both in number and in dedication--give it a shot. Consider what everyone wants to and can do and decide your concentrations (animation, Chairman's, etc). Run mock sessions. Try to develop and practice with the system before kickoff. (Actually, try to do everything before kickoff. That's not illegal, of course.) It is a manpower-work balance, but the number of people isn't the only independent variable.
Also, this may be obvious, but 80 students means you'll want parents involved. And don't underestimate the need or value of NEMS. ;)

Re: Largest team?
 

In the beginning 1311, Kell Robotics, had 7 students.

When school started this year we had 76 names - veterans and rookie prospects. That has shaken down to 60 students and 15 mentors.

Running the program 12 months keeps this crowd pretty busy as we have a lot of work to do, plus we have students moving through an informal management progression.

Robot building, robot maintenance, public exhibition, corporate and community presentations, communications and marketing, and other STEM initiatives creates a lot of opportunity for students to get involved and contribute something.

This weekend we will take 1/4 of the team to GRITS - the off-season FRC competition at the Museum of Aviation, Robins AFB. All but two of the students will be rookies in training, led by two student management level veterans. Spreading students across initiatives and using a 'cascade of mentorship' approach to student training and succession helps keep things fresh and can accommodate more students.

It is rare that the entire team is together at the same time and place. The closest we will get to that happening is at a regional.

Re: Largest team?
 

I'm 99% sure that last year Team 79 had over 70 kids registered.:eek:

Re: Largest team?
 

Last year, Team 115 had 120 kids registered to be apart of our FRC team... SO close to having 115 members haha

Re: Largest team?
 

So far we got 76 kids interested, thank god its not 548.

Re: Largest team?
 

I think that homeschooled team in Columbus at OSU have upwards of 100 students. Not 100% sure, though. Maybe it was 50 students.

Re: Largest team?
 

I think at the peak year of student interest in our school's robotics team, 1592 had something like 30-40 students in 2006-2007 but since then we are averaging probably 10-15 students.

Re: Largest team?
 

In 11 we started out with 97 (the biggest our team has ever been) students signed up in the initial sign up where we got a large number of freshman wanting to join. Our pre-season sessions got rid of all the new guys who did not take the program seriously. I believe we ended the season with about 75 people. Considering the team started with 6 kids and a teacher spending all their time in the basement of our school, we have grown quite a bit in size.

Re: Largest team?
 

Haha. This is quite funny. Im thinking that those kids that told you that were playing a cruel joke on you or something. We only have 750 kids in our whole school. To get 30 of them on the team is a big deal! To get this straight:

The largest team we have ever had was somewhere around 35 kids. We are currently in a high point, running with about 30 kids, but I would say the average is somewhere around 25. We have anywhere from 5-8 mentors depending on the year and circumstances.

For those of you who are interested:
We have about 7 kids on Animation, 8 on Public Relations/Marketing, 5 on Inventor, 1 or 2 on Programming, and I say about 12 on Manufacturing. A lot of kids participate in multiple departments, as im sure many students on your teams do also.

We currently have 4 Manufacturing mentors, 2 Programming Mentors, and one PR/Marketing mentor. Both our Animation and Inventor departments are completely student driven. Only a part of our Animation department is not student driven. Our PR/Marketing mentor is also an art teacher at our school, so she helps out with the aesthetics of the animation and some of the brainstorming.

I hope someone finds this interesting or useful in some way!

Re: Largest team?
 

I don't think it's a parabola, that would yield negative work being done at high numbers of people involved. Are you implying that telling too many people to build a robot end in them disassembling what's already been built?:confused:

What I imagine it is is more like a Poisson distribution.

Re: Largest team?
 

As with (probably) all other teams, in our 9 year history we have always had the balance of the "truly interested" vs. the "hangers on".

Our early years had enrollments in the 40's, with probably less than 30 who were actually consistent participants. Lately we've had rosters in the 30's, including a few "hangers on", with relatively good results. THIS year we only have 2 seniors (:eek:), and a larger than usual recruitment, so next year we might be pushing records for 811! Which, if we play it right, might not be a bad thing: The last few years we've always run out of bodies long before we ran out of tasks, and as a result we tended to ship robots with less features or abilities than we desired.

The biggest concern with larger numbers is, of course, how to accentuate the "truly interested" while minimizing the "hangers on". The solution is mentors: They have to keep things moving, develop and maintain a schedule, and keep people busy (and not just with "busy work").


So here's a new line of debate: What's the ideal team size, in students? Using our structure as a guide:

• Mechanical: 5-10 (based on student abilities and robot capabilities)
• Electrical: 3-4
• Software: 2-6 (based on autonomous capabilities)
• Strategy: 3-4
• Drive team: 3-6 (one or two drive teams)
• Marketing: 2-4
• 3D Animation: 2-4

So ideally 811 could function with between 20 and 40 students. (Hey, looks like we've been doing it right all along! :D )

Re: Largest team?
 

I also agree. I started with about 15 and the core was the five original students. Now (fifth year) I get 50 or so who show an interest, and 30-40 who make it through the season. But the core is still smaller - about 15. To manage everyone else takes more planning, better organize team leadership and mentors, and breaking out smaller groups at times. But they still have to feel like a team. That means doing some things together, and making sure everyone gets engaged.

Splitting out an FTC or VEX team seems like a good idea, but requires mentoring as well, and again more organization.

Rose Y
Team 2199, Liberty Robo-Lions
Eldersburg, MD

Re: Largest team?
 

I think the highest number of students has to have some sort of relation to the number of mentors. No matter how many tasks you have, it still takes a certain number of mentors to help students in order to get things done.

To a certain extent a 4 or 5 to one ratio of students to consistent mentors is probably reasonably ideal. The reason I throw the word consistent in there is because every team has those mentors that are only able to make it a day a week or here & there. It is very difficult to manage and help more than 4 or 5 students at a time, especially if they are doing different tasks.

As an example 1511 has ~25 mentors (I know - lucky!), but I would say come build season really only 10 to 15 of those are "consistent" And with the team working 5-6 days a week, that means the team probably should have a high of 50-75 students. Their highest has been somewhere around 45, so they can still support more, especially in the areas outside the robot.

However, it can be a tough balance. This year they have 18 students that joined the programming subteam!! If all 18 decide they want to do programming in build season, its going to be more than difficult to manage, especially since the only have 2-3 mentors.

I personally would love to see 1511 hit a sustainable 60ish students, but so far, while they usually start with a list that long, between grades and lower interest, its usually down to 40ish by the time build season comes.

Re: Largest team?
 

111 in a typical year will begin with 65, have a few drop out in the fall so that just over 60 are in attendance at kickoff. Everyone attends the Midwest Regional, a small group travels for our second regional and about 35 make it Champs. We have many mentors so there is usually about 2 or 3 students to one mentor. This year we are starting with 85 students and we are worried as to the logistics of handling the large group. All students have the opportunity to work on one or more of the sub teams...
Mechanical
Electrical
Software
Playing field
Strategy
Scouting
Animation
Video
Fund-raising
Chairman's and Hall of Fame
Inventor Documentation
Public Relations
Yearbook and DVD
Some of the subteams go unfilled from year to year as student interest changes.

Re: Largest team?
 

We generally have a team around with 100 student.
Our team that travels to away competitions is only about 25 however.

We also have about 3 mentors that can come regularly.

Re: Largest team?
 

Really, 100 students and 3 mentors? Kudos to those three. I had a nightmare like that once...

Re: Largest team?
 

Team 316 seems to be having the opposite issue. We have 9 students and we've always had a small team, but next year half of our team will be graduating. We have been through many recruiting efforts with slim to no results. We're a county team so we've been to all the schools around, and through my CD research we've really tried to do most of the recruiting ideas. Any ideas? How do these other teams get so big?!
-Ally

Re: Largest team?
 

1885 is an IT school with some parents banging on doors as soon as their child becomes a freshman (heh). Historically ...

15 web students
5 programming students
2 electronics students
6 drive train students
10 manipulator students
7 "build 2" students (usually from FTC or FVC)
2 grant writing students
10 essay writers / pit & image designers
30-40 FTC students
20 student FLL mentors, about half of which also do FTC/FRC

So in a given year we pass about 100 individuals through our program. We had about 75 of them show up at the DC regional on Saturday this passed year. Typically we'll have 30-50 show up on major days for build, with about 10-20 core students who want to be there no matter what even if they're writing an essay (5am on a snow day anyone?).

Re: Largest team?
 

We had this problem back in Lunacy, graduating 3 of the 6-7 regular students. This year we've got over 30 on the roster. We're still just starting on the increasing size trend (well, we're certainly aiming for a trend), but a lot of them came from in-school/back-to-school night presentations.

Another huge thing--that took me a season of staring at MOE's cheering section to figure out--is the funneling from FLL and VEX. It takes some lead time, but our VEX league has over 100 kids in it now, and FLL is having to turn them away in droves. For some reason, it's seems easier to "catch them young". (But be careful, some of us'll never leave!)

Re: Largest team?
 

We have started 2 FLL teams this year and we do all the local back-to-school nights, but lets hope that the FLL teams will bring us luck! Thanks!
-Ally

Re: Largest team?
 

Thanks but, the most kids 103 has ever seen is 45. We try to keep the number now around 30 to 35 because that is what works for the team. We have a small school, around 700 to 800 kids. In all honesty, I don't have a clue as to what we would do with over 50 kids. Some teams make it work, but small is what works for us. Also, 2001 to 2002 was when we had the largest amount of kids, you got the year right! I will have to find that ambassador and let him know it's not the whole school. (We do have a few robotics courses that the team started that kids can take that aren't in the school, maybe that's where the confusion began.) :P

From what I can remember and the events I've been too in my last 15 years, 365, 75, and 180 have had a lot of members on their team. Those are the three that seem to stand out the most.

Cass

Re: Largest team?
 

Just an update... Team 75 now has 81 students.....

Way to many in my opinion.

Re: Largest team?
 

Team 1647, founded back in 2005, started with 14 students (myself beign one of the original 14). Since then, the team has expanded to include all 4 schools within our district, thus creating a new team in the process 2729. Team 1647 currently has over 90 active students and 2729 is hovering in the same range as well I believe.

Going from 14 to 170+ in 6 seasons aint too shabby :cool:

Re: Largest team?
 

Our team runs around 30-35 students. Of course not every student knows how to use the cad program to design a robot, nor do they want to. We have design team, drive team, graphics team, PR, Spirit & Book-keeping. Each team has a person in charge. We have weekly meetings & discuss what we want to accomplish for the upcoming season. We have fund-raisers where everybody can participate, plus patron drives to offset the teams/individuals costs to each event we travel to. I have seen a lot of teams bring a significant amount of students to participate in "Spirit" . I guess it's all up to how many students are interested in joining the team.

Re: Largest team?
 

This year we're going to field our largest team in years with 40 kids and 21 adults. During the season the team will be pared down by attrition no doubt. FIRST isn't for everyone.