Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I'm curious about LED manufacturing.

For instance: Hybrid cars are great, but it's pretty clear that when you factor in their manufacturing and disposal pollution, it's difficult to make a case that they are substantially better for the environment that high-efficiency diesel or gasoline cars. In fact, considering the world-monopoly that China has on many rare-earth metals you are trading one monopoly (OPEC) for another (China Inc.).

What is the total pollution cost for LED manufacturing and disposal? I know some fairly nasty chemicals are used: gallium arsenide, etc. This information doesn't seem to have been researched very well on the web yet: it seems that most people are still in the honeymoon phase with LED lighting and are discounting the manufacturing process.

That's not to suggest that it's not a significantly better product. Who knows, maybe the lack of information on the net regarding the manufacture is because it's nearly pollutionless. Does anyone have enough knowledge of the process to describe what types and amounts of pollution we might be looking at?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I can't help but think that if our team were to do this we would end up with a workshop full of unsold light bulbs. I don't know much about the process that one would go about selling these but I don't know if I would be able to sell light bulbs at 25$ a piece.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

One of the things I my latest reading book got me thinking about in the LED-lightbulb context is that teams could use these lightbulbs a part of their solicitations for donations to the team.

Low-cost decorum could be added to the lightbulb so that the donor is receiving a team product (much like a tshirt) rather than an item. A properly-branded team could find a way to get students to help with the fundraising by either producing the product or soliciting sponsorhip with a product rather than a pamphlet.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

The documentation provided by FIRST somewhat deceptively states "replaces up to a conventional 60-watt household light bulb". Here is the complete announcement -- http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr....aspx?id=18445

Even the manufacturers data declares "Replacement for 60W incandescent bulb", see the T-67004S on this link from the FIRST resource page -- http://webbuilder2.asiannet.com/ftp/2253/tess-DM.pdf3

As mentioned earlier, by the lumen rating, these bulbs are very close to 40W of equivalent output. The last thing we need are lots of dissatisfied customers who paid $20 for something they were led to believe (by the published documentation) should perform like 60W bulbs. We need to be careful that FIRST does not get a bad name from this campaign.

An article from The Telegraph states: "Crucially, the EU legislation requires manufacturers to make only scientifically based claims for their lights. An energy-efficient bulb, for example, that claims to be the equivalent of a 60W tungsten bulb must have a minimum light output of 806 luminous flux"

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I have used similar LED lightbulbs at home (Google handed them out to employees who were interested about 2 years ago). They were touted as equivalent to 40W bulbs and looked fine. The bulbs we were given had some reliability issues and they didn't last as long as the CFLs we use everywhere else. But then, that was two years ago...

I found they were better than CFLs for applications like small lamps in the bedroom that have a shade that clips on the bulb and ceiling fan lamps that take multiple bulbs because, well, they don't look industrial. I put one in the basement stairs (which we always forget to turn off.) The brightness was less than the old bulbs, but you don't notice the change after the first day or two. I never have liked the CFL "warm" bulb look. The color temperature of the bulbs we got was very much like an incandescent bulb.

I would love to replace the multiple bulb fixture in my foyer (takes small base incandescent bulbs) with something I could fill with these.

What I find challenging with this fundraiser is that the team members I'm working with might have a hard time finding many takers at a product that is $25 each. It would be great if there were some kind of smaller ticket product to go along with it. A box of Gurl Scout cookies is under $5 and I believe the Boy Scout popcorn sales have some kind of $10 option.

-Eric.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Eric:

I had the same thought as you regarding the use of these in multi-bulb fixtures where access is inconvenient.

Unfortunately, the manufacturer specifically states "Do not use in enclosed fixtures". I am guessing that although low power, they are much less tolerant to increased temperatures than incandescent bulbs, and any temperature rise would adversely affect reliability.

-Tom

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I'm excited about this opportunity, but only if they really do approximate 60W bulbs. If they're any dimmer (and it looks like they are), they're going to be a very difficult sell.

The reason you get blinded by the LED when it is pointed at you is because of the tiny parabolic mirror behind the light source. Identical in design to a car headlight or maglight, this mirror focuses the majority of the light into a somewhat tight beam.

If a ~40W equivalent bulb has ~60-70%% of its power focused in one direction, then compared to a 60W bulb that is dispersing its power in every direction, of course it's going to be blinding...

...but everything else around that 'beam' will be *significantly* dimmer, and homeowners don't want lights that make their house look dim.

Thus, I'll have to see them in action before I order a couple of cases for 1551.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I personally tried one of the bulbs and did not see any noticeable difference. It was used under a lampshade.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Good to hear. Where did you get one to try it?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

It was at Vince Wilczynski's retirement party at the USCGA. There was someone from FIRST who had some samples.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Drat. I was hoping for a link to free samples... :D

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

You said it.

Solid state lighting (LEDs) is an absolutely exploding business sector. An LED 2 years ago is like comparing a Playstation 3 from today to an N64 or a comparison similar to that.

LED manufacturers have continuously been bumping the efficacy (lumens/watt) of LEDs while fixture/bulb manufacturers have become better at maximizing their performance (better optical efficiency, thermal efficiency, etc.)

The problem with many of the former LED replacement bulbs is exactly what has been discussed here. They claimed to be a 60W equivalent, when in reality they were only something like a 40W equivalent. This gave the initial impression in the market place that LED bulbs just weren't that good, when the fact was it was just a little before their time.

My recommendation is to wait and judge for yourself if the bulb suits your needs, and don't make a decision about LED replacements based off of one bulb. Every brand is different and uses different LEDs, and some are much better than others.

As for reliability, again early systems ingrained a bad taste in consumers mouthes. A well designed (see: thermally managed) LED bulb can last for 50,000+ hours, I'll let you do the math to determine how long it would last in your application of choice. The length of time it lasts is almost always directly related to how well it is thermally managed; this is why they do not recommend putting them into enclosed fixtures.

I'm excited to see what these bulbs look like in person, I have high hopes.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Brandon, forgive my skepticism. I've seen similar claims on the CFL's that everyone is being forced to swap two, and not once have I had one of the dozens I've used last anywhere near the advertised time. It seems that while the non-circuited bulb portion doesn't break, the board itself and the mini-ballast simply aren't up to the task of being turned on and off a couple times a day. In fact, I've gotten significantly less life out of most of the CFL bulbs that I have comparable incandescent, especially in locations like the bathroom where they are turned on and off 15 or 20 times a day.

I've talked with several barn and home builders and they've complained - they installed CFL bulbs at the request of their customers and have had to warranty large numbers of those bulbs. In one case a neighbor of mine who had a 40x100 pole barn built for his dog training facility has had to warranty nearly 30 bulbs - so many that GE has assigned him an engineer to contact directly, and they simply send him a free box of bulbs when he calls because they've gotten so many of his returns over 2 years.

I hope LED's are better. As far as I know they don't require the high voltage ballast that seems so fragile in CFL's.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Tom-
The skepticism you have is widely seen with many consumers. *Excuse my french* Crappy companies have produced crappy products that have really soured many people to anything other than the classic incandescent.

I work as a mechanical engineer designing LED light fixtures, so I may be a bit more high on LEDs than most people, but I've seen a lot of progression in the few years I've been doing this.

You are right in your assumption that LEDs do not require high voltage ballasts. The beauty of them is that the power supplies are actually quite simple (relatively speaking), which allows them to last very long. I've seen many LED fixtures last well beyond their life rating. Many reputable companies like Philips, Sylvania and Cree will stand by those claims and do not leave customers out to dry.

CFLs and LEDs are two very different ball games. Although the end result of illuminating a room or space is the same, the way the two technologies do it is extremely different.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Read into this: People generally don't like thinking about/planning out the(ir) future.

Read into this: You would think people would make decisions based off what's cheaper in the long run, but they don't.

Read into this: More than half of the people would rather get £45 now than £70 later. You can apply this to savings: people would rather save 20 dollars (estimated) now and buy cheap bulbs, than save X (greater than 20) over time any buy expensive bulbs. You see this with food too: processed vs. natural- many will argue that natural/unprocessed food is better for you, but processed food is cheaper/easier.

I'm not a major in Psychology-I've only had one year in high school- but studies repeatedly show that people don't think logically.

Personally, I'm against this. Its a step in the right direction, but not really with the right foot. I'm glad that FIRST is trying to help out teams but I'd rather see the Google money being spent elsewhere.