FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I was looking at my RSS feed, when an article from Engadget popped up (http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/28/d...e-led-light-b/) about some of Dean Kamen's recent activities at the 2010 TEDMED (a conference about medical care and technology), including a possible FIRST fundraiser.

"Last but not least, the man's got a product you might be able to afford for your home. In the quest for an item for his FIRST young engineers to sell -- a la Girl Scout cookies -- he tapped LED manufacturer Cree to produce an 450 lumen light bulb that draws just 7 watts and will retail for about $25 door-to-door. In case you're wondering, that's cheaper and more efficient than most any lamp we've seen before. Dean says they've already produced several hundred thousand of the bulbs thanks to a surprise $3 million investment from Google, and plan to have them in the hands of every FIRST kid soon."

This was the first I have ever heard about this. Have you guys heard anything about it?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Yeah, just saw it on Engadget too. First time I heard of this. Maybe it will be announced at kickoff?

I did a site search for "site:usfirst.org led lightbulb" and came up with this:
http://www.usfirst.org/WorkArea/link...d&ItemID=18162

Link currently doesn't work as it seems the FIRST website is down?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I speculate that since registration for the second regional opened today, the FIRST servers have melted. Or something.:rolleyes:

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

At the Raleigh North Carolina FIRST Regional Event, Dean flew into town and spent the Saturday there.

Midday he spent with the top brass of a company called Cree, a maker of semiconductors used in high efficiency LED lighting.

During the ceremony he talked about a FIRST fundraiser he was working to put together that involved high efficiency lighting.

During the ceremony he held up what looked like a normal light bulb, held it in his hand it was completely cool, because it was a LED lamp inside of a plastic light bulb shell.

It was announced but not broadly.............

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I work in the LED field, developing new LED light fixtures for retrofitting or new applications.

Cree is one hell of a company. Since developing some of the best LEDs (if not THE best) on the market, they have gone on to develop bulbs and fixtures that replace current incandescent and CFL light sources. The fixtures combined with the LEDs tend to make an incredible combination of efficacy (Lumens/Watt) and look (warmer whites versus the flickery blues of CFLs).

I first heard about this way back earlier in the year and was looking forward to this announcement. I think it could be quite successful for FIRST teams.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Let's see.

Cutting edge product that provides significant benefit compared to current technology coupled with cute technically savvy students hawking it door to door. We would control the world. That would be the best fundraiser ever. That's like printing money.

Where do we sign up? When can we get product?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

The biggest question is: do we have eclusivity?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

The hard part, IMHO,

You have to sell a product that has a higher shelf price than a typical bulb, plus add in some profit margin for your team that raises the price even further.....

Total cost of ownership should be lower but it is still hard to get many people to buy the product because they tend to focus on the shelf price.

something to be aware of..........

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

This is a big challenge with current LED technology. However, with incandescents being phased out starting in 2012, until they are finally laid to rest in 2014, consumers are going to have to start looking at the problem differently.

The huge complaints with CFLs are the delayed on times combined with flicker and the blue light (high color temperature) the lights emit when being used.

With LEDs, consumers get the same instant on as you do a incandescent, combined with the warm (low color temperature) light that makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy.

Now add in the cost benefit and lifetime (~10 years+) and you end up with a very marketable product.

It may seem like a tough sell, but it most certainly is highly marketable. It's all about informing the customer of what's important.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I think that FIRST teams may have great luck in marketing these to local businesses, who may be more likely to take the long view when it comes to the cost of lighting than home consumers.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

This fundraiser might actually work. I was skeptical when Dean Kamen suggested us having a product "like Girl Scout Cookies" (maybe not an exact quote), but these light bulbs could be a hit. I know I would at least consider buying some because of their lifetime alone.
I'll be looking forward to any official announcements with details.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Anyone know how well LED light bulbs work with dimmer switches?

I just replaced a bunch of the wall switches in my house with dimmer switches. From what I have found CFL lights don't seem to work well with the dimmer switches. Some say they work but they buzz and hum loudly when they are dimmed. Others just don't work unless the dimmer is almost all the way up. I would love to replace all the incandescent bulbs in my house with new more efficient technology but if I can't dim them down it sort of defeats the point of the dimmers. Is this a selling point of LED light bulbs or will they suffer the same issues?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I'm completely sold on LED bulbs as long, as their price efficiency beats CFLs. But the one problem I see is that a large percentage of the population doesn't understand even simple algebra and break-even points, let alone time value of money. Many people just look at the initial cost and base their opinions off of that, regardless of operating expenses or potential benefits. It's also why public works projects (improved highway interchange, expanded airport terminal, new high-speed rail line, etc) that engineers calculated to have positive cost/benefit analysis get shot down by politicians or voters who only see an initial price tag in the billions.

So the challenge for this fundraiser is to both sell people on a product, and sell people on the concept of thinking longer-term and considering operating costs, benefits and break-even points rather than just the initial expense.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

It would take 4 of these to put out as much light as a 100watt incandescent.

Tough sell.


The significance of the benefit depends on lifestyle, climate, and electric rates. Off-peak electric rates in areas serviced by nuclear power plants can be as low as 1.5 cents per kilowatt-hour. Do the math.


At $25 for 450 lumens it may be a wash for certain areas of the country with colder climates and lower electric rates, when you factor in the cost of money.

Have you noticed that the incandescents are back on the shelves in full force, after having been phased out prematurely by the big-box stores? There's a good chance the 2014 deadline may get delayed.


And they don't like being cycled, and they don't like cold temperatures (like outdoors), and they are toxic, and they are all made in China.

Incandescents are (or were) made in the US.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Ether, not to be offensive, but you sure can be a pessimist sometimes... :/

The main problems with these LEDs is the lumen output, which is about half of a 60w incandescent bulb, and the price due to the new tech.

The "Made in China" factor is debatable, although most of Cree's LEDs are made in the US.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I believe that's exactly what I said in my post. Sounds like we agree.

Last time I checked, all the CFLs on the shelves were made in China. There's no need to debate. If you come across any CFLs made in the US I will stand corrected.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Lights of America designs lights that are made in the US for the US. Thats kind of their "calling card"

Made in USA: http://www.esplighting.com/2814s-4vp.html

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Read the fine print:

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I plan to buy a couple for use in the reading room during the summer air conditioning season.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Doing some quick calculations:

Approximately 0.0234 mg of mercury is released into the atmosphere per kilowatt hour of electricity generated in a coal power plant. Over a 7500 hour lifespan of a bulb, a 100 Watt incandescent bulb will use 750 kW of electricity. In the US, 44.9% of that electricity came from coal power sources in 2009. Assuming this is true for the energy used by the light bulb, that means 336.75 kW came from coal sources, which means ~7.88mg is mercury was released into the atmosphere.

The equivalent CFL bulb only uses 23 Watts of electricity but contain between 1.5mg and 4mg of mercury (newer CFLs average between 1.5mg and 2.5mg, while the older ones have ~4mg. By comparison, older mercury thermometers contain about 500mg of mercury). Over the same 7500 hour life period, it would cause the release of ~1.81mg of mercury into the atmosphere via coal-powered electricity generation.

Even if the CFL bulb was not recycled and somehow had all of its mercury released into the atmosphere, it would have caused the release of ~5.81mg of mercury into the atmosphere, a ~26% reduction in mercury emissions when compared to incandescent bulbs.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Completely anecdotal evidence here but I've run CFLs in sub zero temperatures just fine. They don't last quite as long but it's still a cost savings over incandescent bulbs.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

For what it's worth: My package of Phillips DuraMax incandescent 40W bulbs claims 475 lumens. So this LED bulb we're discussing is about a 40 W equivalent.

Compare: CFL vs LED
Efficency: 9W vs 7W source.
Time to on: Several seconds vs Instant
Cost: $2 vs $25
Life: 10k Hours vs 50k hours source
Mercury: Little vs Less
Dimmable?: Some vs Yes
Cold OK? Barely vs Better

Me, personally, I'm a big fan of LEDs (not just in light bulbs, either) so I'll still spend $25 for the equivalent of $10 worth of CFLs.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

ditto that.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I agree with those saying the $25 LED is worth the money comparing lumens to watts. I am currently sitting under 4 LED flood bulbs from Lights of america which were said to be 45watt equivalent and 1 20watt equivalent. Here at my keyboard I can easily see all the keys and anything I write and have on my desk or under the monitor shelf, these are putting out nearly the same light as my 65 watt equivalent CFLs. I have CFLs in every other light fixture in my house but slowly changing them as I get a few spare bucks.

We at Menards just started carrying some Toshiba LED bulbs with a rating of 350 lumens? for about $17, and contain no mercury, these look just like a regular light bulb except they have a heatsink at the base, there are even replacements for those pesky 50 watt halogen track lights available. I am beginning to wonder if the LEDs are being rated/measured the same as CFLs or incandescents, if you look at the area the bulb we have on display lights up it seems more like a 60watt equivalent, but this may be due to the whiter color compared to the softer incandescent.

By the way, the incandescents will be slowly phased out. Already we have seen the 75 watt indoor R-30 flood converted to 65 watt, the 75 and 150 watt outdoor flood converted to halogen only, mercury vapor bulbs were phased out recently and many companies have stopped making incandescent <EDIT> Phillips makes a bulb that is 30% more efficent called the Halogena Energy Saver</edit> Ever so slowly we will see the lumens per wall increase with LED technology getting more efficient.

little food for thought here

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

It wasn't clear from the context since you mentioned both mercury vapor and incandescent in the paragraph: are you referring to incandescent bulbs (in the bolded part)?

And if so, what companies are you referring to and what are the lumen ratings and life of their 90-watt bulbs?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

LED bulbs would be considerably cheaper if we could adapt to an environment lit with red light.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

If nobody minds I would like to put my two cents worth in...

I was in the stands of North Carolina when Dean Kamen announced the new Cree LED. He made about a two minute speech about the product and its pro's, and then someone turned the little bugger on. Perhaps it was the angle that I saw it at (highly doubtful) or I was just really sensitive that day, but if anyone else on here who was at North Carolina 2010 can testify that that little LED was practically BLINDING, it would be great. Let me just put it this way, it was hard to look at Dean when that thing got power.

So from seeing the luminoscity capabilities of that unit (idk if that was a prototype or a showcase piece, or the real deal production) I have little reason to believe that it will have problems selling because of lighting issues.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Dean Kamen made a two minute speech? Now THAT is significant!

Jason

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Hmm one LED light bulb or 60+ GS cookies and have the Mass Saves program replace all $600 worth of my lightbulbs for free... Unfortunately MA teams are probably better off trying to sell cookies :)

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I was there and in the TOP row of the stadium and it was in fact blinding/I turned away when it was pointed in my direction. Also the stadium was was an all glass building with the sun shining into the stadium so it was a very bright room with a very bright light.

In short these bulbs are very, very, very bright!

Two minute speech about the light bulb, just about the light bulb! :rolleyes: He had his normal longer speech with it being a new event and all along with all the rookies and teams who have never heard him. ;) :)

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I'm curious about LED manufacturing.

For instance: Hybrid cars are great, but it's pretty clear that when you factor in their manufacturing and disposal pollution, it's difficult to make a case that they are substantially better for the environment that high-efficiency diesel or gasoline cars. In fact, considering the world-monopoly that China has on many rare-earth metals you are trading one monopoly (OPEC) for another (China Inc.).

What is the total pollution cost for LED manufacturing and disposal? I know some fairly nasty chemicals are used: gallium arsenide, etc. This information doesn't seem to have been researched very well on the web yet: it seems that most people are still in the honeymoon phase with LED lighting and are discounting the manufacturing process.

That's not to suggest that it's not a significantly better product. Who knows, maybe the lack of information on the net regarding the manufacture is because it's nearly pollutionless. Does anyone have enough knowledge of the process to describe what types and amounts of pollution we might be looking at?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I can't help but think that if our team were to do this we would end up with a workshop full of unsold light bulbs. I don't know much about the process that one would go about selling these but I don't know if I would be able to sell light bulbs at 25$ a piece.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

One of the things I my latest reading book got me thinking about in the LED-lightbulb context is that teams could use these lightbulbs a part of their solicitations for donations to the team.

Low-cost decorum could be added to the lightbulb so that the donor is receiving a team product (much like a tshirt) rather than an item. A properly-branded team could find a way to get students to help with the fundraising by either producing the product or soliciting sponsorhip with a product rather than a pamphlet.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

The documentation provided by FIRST somewhat deceptively states "replaces up to a conventional 60-watt household light bulb". Here is the complete announcement -- http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr....aspx?id=18445

Even the manufacturers data declares "Replacement for 60W incandescent bulb", see the T-67004S on this link from the FIRST resource page -- http://webbuilder2.asiannet.com/ftp/2253/tess-DM.pdf3

As mentioned earlier, by the lumen rating, these bulbs are very close to 40W of equivalent output. The last thing we need are lots of dissatisfied customers who paid $20 for something they were led to believe (by the published documentation) should perform like 60W bulbs. We need to be careful that FIRST does not get a bad name from this campaign.

An article from The Telegraph states: "Crucially, the EU legislation requires manufacturers to make only scientifically based claims for their lights. An energy-efficient bulb, for example, that claims to be the equivalent of a 60W tungsten bulb must have a minimum light output of 806 luminous flux"

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I have used similar LED lightbulbs at home (Google handed them out to employees who were interested about 2 years ago). They were touted as equivalent to 40W bulbs and looked fine. The bulbs we were given had some reliability issues and they didn't last as long as the CFLs we use everywhere else. But then, that was two years ago...

I found they were better than CFLs for applications like small lamps in the bedroom that have a shade that clips on the bulb and ceiling fan lamps that take multiple bulbs because, well, they don't look industrial. I put one in the basement stairs (which we always forget to turn off.) The brightness was less than the old bulbs, but you don't notice the change after the first day or two. I never have liked the CFL "warm" bulb look. The color temperature of the bulbs we got was very much like an incandescent bulb.

I would love to replace the multiple bulb fixture in my foyer (takes small base incandescent bulbs) with something I could fill with these.

What I find challenging with this fundraiser is that the team members I'm working with might have a hard time finding many takers at a product that is $25 each. It would be great if there were some kind of smaller ticket product to go along with it. A box of Gurl Scout cookies is under $5 and I believe the Boy Scout popcorn sales have some kind of $10 option.

-Eric.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Eric:

I had the same thought as you regarding the use of these in multi-bulb fixtures where access is inconvenient.

Unfortunately, the manufacturer specifically states "Do not use in enclosed fixtures". I am guessing that although low power, they are much less tolerant to increased temperatures than incandescent bulbs, and any temperature rise would adversely affect reliability.

-Tom

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I'm excited about this opportunity, but only if they really do approximate 60W bulbs. If they're any dimmer (and it looks like they are), they're going to be a very difficult sell.

The reason you get blinded by the LED when it is pointed at you is because of the tiny parabolic mirror behind the light source. Identical in design to a car headlight or maglight, this mirror focuses the majority of the light into a somewhat tight beam.

If a ~40W equivalent bulb has ~60-70%% of its power focused in one direction, then compared to a 60W bulb that is dispersing its power in every direction, of course it's going to be blinding...

...but everything else around that 'beam' will be *significantly* dimmer, and homeowners don't want lights that make their house look dim.

Thus, I'll have to see them in action before I order a couple of cases for 1551.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I personally tried one of the bulbs and did not see any noticeable difference. It was used under a lampshade.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Good to hear. Where did you get one to try it?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

It was at Vince Wilczynski's retirement party at the USCGA. There was someone from FIRST who had some samples.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Drat. I was hoping for a link to free samples... :D

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

You said it.

Solid state lighting (LEDs) is an absolutely exploding business sector. An LED 2 years ago is like comparing a Playstation 3 from today to an N64 or a comparison similar to that.

LED manufacturers have continuously been bumping the efficacy (lumens/watt) of LEDs while fixture/bulb manufacturers have become better at maximizing their performance (better optical efficiency, thermal efficiency, etc.)

The problem with many of the former LED replacement bulbs is exactly what has been discussed here. They claimed to be a 60W equivalent, when in reality they were only something like a 40W equivalent. This gave the initial impression in the market place that LED bulbs just weren't that good, when the fact was it was just a little before their time.

My recommendation is to wait and judge for yourself if the bulb suits your needs, and don't make a decision about LED replacements based off of one bulb. Every brand is different and uses different LEDs, and some are much better than others.

As for reliability, again early systems ingrained a bad taste in consumers mouthes. A well designed (see: thermally managed) LED bulb can last for 50,000+ hours, I'll let you do the math to determine how long it would last in your application of choice. The length of time it lasts is almost always directly related to how well it is thermally managed; this is why they do not recommend putting them into enclosed fixtures.

I'm excited to see what these bulbs look like in person, I have high hopes.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Brandon, forgive my skepticism. I've seen similar claims on the CFL's that everyone is being forced to swap two, and not once have I had one of the dozens I've used last anywhere near the advertised time. It seems that while the non-circuited bulb portion doesn't break, the board itself and the mini-ballast simply aren't up to the task of being turned on and off a couple times a day. In fact, I've gotten significantly less life out of most of the CFL bulbs that I have comparable incandescent, especially in locations like the bathroom where they are turned on and off 15 or 20 times a day.

I've talked with several barn and home builders and they've complained - they installed CFL bulbs at the request of their customers and have had to warranty large numbers of those bulbs. In one case a neighbor of mine who had a 40x100 pole barn built for his dog training facility has had to warranty nearly 30 bulbs - so many that GE has assigned him an engineer to contact directly, and they simply send him a free box of bulbs when he calls because they've gotten so many of his returns over 2 years.

I hope LED's are better. As far as I know they don't require the high voltage ballast that seems so fragile in CFL's.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Tom-
The skepticism you have is widely seen with many consumers. *Excuse my french* Crappy companies have produced crappy products that have really soured many people to anything other than the classic incandescent.

I work as a mechanical engineer designing LED light fixtures, so I may be a bit more high on LEDs than most people, but I've seen a lot of progression in the few years I've been doing this.

You are right in your assumption that LEDs do not require high voltage ballasts. The beauty of them is that the power supplies are actually quite simple (relatively speaking), which allows them to last very long. I've seen many LED fixtures last well beyond their life rating. Many reputable companies like Philips, Sylvania and Cree will stand by those claims and do not leave customers out to dry.

CFLs and LEDs are two very different ball games. Although the end result of illuminating a room or space is the same, the way the two technologies do it is extremely different.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Read into this: People generally don't like thinking about/planning out the(ir) future.

Read into this: You would think people would make decisions based off what's cheaper in the long run, but they don't.

Read into this: More than half of the people would rather get £45 now than £70 later. You can apply this to savings: people would rather save 20 dollars (estimated) now and buy cheap bulbs, than save X (greater than 20) over time any buy expensive bulbs. You see this with food too: processed vs. natural- many will argue that natural/unprocessed food is better for you, but processed food is cheaper/easier.

I'm not a major in Psychology-I've only had one year in high school- but studies repeatedly show that people don't think logically.

Personally, I'm against this. Its a step in the right direction, but not really with the right foot. I'm glad that FIRST is trying to help out teams but I'd rather see the Google money being spent elsewhere.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Being a Boy Scout myself, I can tell you that while GS cookies are the most successful thing an organization has ever sold, BSA popcorn has never done well, to the point where my Troop has decided to completely ditch using that as a fund-raiser.

This then brings my main concern about using this as a fundraiser. If selling slightly over-priced popcorn and not doing well, how am I going to sell $25 LED's? With all the government credits out there, and I'm sure within a year or two the price will come down and they'll end up on the deal rack at Home Depot who will buy them?

Maybe I'm wrong, and I very well could be, but if I was going to start using this as a fund-raiser, I would have to see another team do this and get successful results.

Don't get me wrong LED's are great way to go with lighting in the future, but as a fund-raiser for FRC, I don't think it could work.

My $0.02.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

People who have been around a while understand that when you are told a time to payback by somebody trying to sell something then you should increase that 50% to 400% in the real world.

I can't afford spending hundreds of dollars on a new technology that has no other benefit other than potential costs savings in the future. Especially when that potential could be way off. It's just not gonna happen.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Oi. This hits the nail on the head for a home consumer -- no one lightbulb in (at least) my house is responsible for any significant portion of the lighting consumed in my house over the course of a day. The lights aren't even on for significant portions of time throughout the day (2-4 hours at most). Ergo, while it's logical that I would spend considerably less money on energy, you're right that for it to have noticeable effect over the next year that I'd have to spend several hundred dollars up front. This basically puts the target consumer at someone who will live in their current residence long enough to see the benefit to begin with: a homeowner.

Very specifically, homeowners who may sell their homes in the next year would be perfect target consumers for these specific bulbs: they increase a home's appeal to potential home buyers. These guys would purchase the bulbs in [somewhat] "bulk" quantities in order to replace most or all bulbs within a home. While the housing market in many areas is in a slump, I'm sure there are some houses being successfully sold in most areas ... so perhaps this is an avenue teams can take.

Other potential [somewhat bulk] buyers are Nursing Homes, (maybe) Apartment complexes who are looking to appeal to an energy-conscious renter, etc. Teams could get creative with what's in their area.

Longer-term, these bulbs need to come down in price. The only way (at least in a way we have the power to influence, since no one knows how insane the margins are on a single bulb) to do so is to increase demand for the technology significantly. Looking around work today, I see hundreds and hundreds of 4' long fluorescent bulbs with a ~1" diameter -- the same standard bulb I see used almost everywhere (in the schools, corporate buildings, labs, etc). Maybe next year we can expand this program to sell light bulbs that fit into the same sockets our sponsors have so we may expand our fund raising efforts to them.

Heh, expand our fund raising to our current sponsors ... what a conundrum.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Believe me, many companies are attempting to develop that exact bulb you describe. It's not as easy as it may appear.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Or you can run the calculations yourself and figure it out. :)

Let's say you have an incandescent light bulb that just died, and you're considering replacing it with LED light bulb. Not replacing the light bulb is not an option. Any potential savings in cost from an LED bulb will be placed into an investment/401k/IRA/etc portfolio, where an average rate of return of 8% (over the life of the investment, obviously not during these past few years) is not uncommon.

The first step is to calculate the initial cost. The cost of a "long life" (20,000 hours life) 60W incandescent bulb is about $2, and the market price of an 7W LED bulb (40,000 hours life) is $25. Let's say a twin-pack of incandescent bulbs was purchased at the same time, so the net initial cost of an LED bulb over two incandescent bulbs required to meet the same lifespan is $21.

The second step is to calculate the annual cost. In Connecticut, electricity currently costs about $0.20/kWh for residential customers! (That's what happens when you let NIMBYs block any new generating plants or transmission lines). Let's say the light bulb that died was on for eight hours a day, every day, which results in an on time of 2992 hours per year.

The 60W incandescent bulb will use 179.52 kWh of electricity, while the 7W LED bulb will use 20.944 kWh. Using the price of electricity above, the incandescent bulb will cost $35.91/year while the LED will cost $4.19. Switching to LED will yield an annual savings of $31.72 in CT. Redoing these calculations with the US national average of $0.1153/kWh results in an annual savings of $18.28.

The last part is to ascertain how long we will do these calculations for. At the above stated use levels, 40,000 hours / 2992 hours/year = 13.36 years. I'll round down to 13 years.

So now we can plug this into time-value-of-money economics equations to determine whether or not it's worth it to invest in LED bulbs. I'll calculate this using the annual worth method, and if the final value is greater than zero, the idea is profitable relative to the status quo and should be pursued.

AW_Connecticut(8%) = -$21(A/P, 8%, 13 years) + ($35.91) = -$2.66 + $35.91 = $33.25

AW_{US Average}(8%) = -$21(A/P, 8%, 13 years) + ($18.28) = -$2.66 + $18.28 = $15.62

Thus, in both cases, the LED bulbs both result in an positive annual profit over the status quo (incandescent bulbs), and depending on what area of the country you live in and how much you use light bulbs, they may even pay for themselves in less than a year.

No reason to replace every bulb at once. Replacement by attrition spreads the "initial price shock" out over a period of several years.

As for the "potential" part, that relies on the accuracy of the life-span characteristics of the new LED bulbs. Assuming the life span follows a normal distribution, a very large standard deviation in the mean life expectancy would be required to have a high sensitivity of the expected savings. Using a simple non time-value-of-money approach, the point at which a LED bulb breaks even against an incandescent is

(price of LED - price of incandescent) / ((watts of incandescent - watts of LED) * price per kWh)

($25-$2) / (0.06 - 0.007) * 0.1153) = 3763.76 hours.

Thus, the savings are only "potential" if the lifespan of the LED bulb is less than 3764 hours. There would have to be an INCREDIBLY HUGE standard deviation in the life span of LED bulbs to lead to a even a 1% chance of not profiting off replacing an incandescent bulb with an LED bulb.

While Brandon might provide a better answer to this, the fluorescent tube lights are different than the squiggly lights one puts in a residential light fixture, in that they have an external ballast to pump the voltage up to around 600V. Any drop in replacement bulb would therefore have to run at 600V, which presents a major challenge. Removing the ballast and wiring the tube fixture directly to 120 or 240 VAC would probably make it easier to make LED tube lights, but would eliminate the possibility of putting a fluorescent tube back in.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

did you mean 2,000 hours?


Four-pack for $1.20 = $0.30 each


Areas served by nuclear power plants pay as little as $0.015 off-peak.


You are ignoring the value of the heat emitted by the incandescent. In colder climates, this is not waste heat. It helps heat the house. You have to figure in the price of the heating fuel you saved.


This seems unrealistic as an average, unless you are suggesting replacing only high-use bulbs with LED.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

There's a lot of energy and brain power being used in this thread. :D

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Ether, if I'm not mistaken, Art was doing a simplified version, similar to what an engineering economics professor might do as an in-class exercise. He also neglected inflation. As a matter of fact, as soon as I started reading the setup, I remembered a class I was in last spring, namely, Engineering Economics. Build one transmission line or 2, based on X cost/line and Y capacity--but where are the material/transportation costs?

Does that other stuff have to be factored in? The nuclear power is (or should be) included in the national average, which was also done. Heating of the room depends on large part on both the size of the room and the number (and type) of light bulbs; for my living room at home, one light bulb normally, 2-7 at peak lighting, that is minimal heating. We get more from the people in the room. So that's not a whole lot of heating fuel saved by using incandescent.

As for the light being on 8 hours a day, during the winter, it's quite possible to be up (and in one room) for quite some time, say 5-9 or 10, while it's dark, and another couple of hours in the morning, so easily about 6-7 hours. Stay up late often enough, and you could make a case for 8 hours. It also makes for decent calculations.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Here's my source for the figures I chose: http://www.amazon.com/WATTS-LIGHT-FR.../dp/B000ST9AMM

Using numbers for cheaper incandescent bulbs with 1/10 the life and 1/6 the price of the one I quoted only benefits the LED replacement case.

The prices I chose were listed on the Department of Energy website: http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html

Prices of $0.015/kWh would be great if the US got 80% of their electricity from nuclear plants like France does, but given paranoia over nuclear power plants (there has still yet to be a single confirmed death or case of cancer from Three Mile Island) and a lack of a long-term nuclear waste disposal/processing/storage facility (like Yucca Mountain proposal), we're going to be stuck with much higher average electricity prices for some time, probably until nuclear fusion research yields a commercially viable solution (last I've seen, Chinese scientists have been able to sustain a 10 million degree Celsius fusion reaction for 400 seconds, and 100 million degree Celsius reaction for 60 seconds).

But in the summer, your air conditioning has to fight the heat generated by incandescent bulbs. I've seen prior calculations (can't seem to find the link now) that show from a heating/cooling issue between incandescent and CFL bulbs is a wash for most of the US. If I can find the link, I'll share it.

I chose eight hours per day as an average value for most lights in "busy" areas of a house/apartment.

I was considering solving these equations as a function of the hours per day of operation, but then I realized that the only difference this has is to shrink or widen the time bands. The ratio of break even point relative to the entire life of the bulb remains the same. The only way the hours or operation per year would affect the break even point relative to the total life of the bulb would be if degradation of the bulb over time occured. AFAIK this doesn't happen, so that's why I chose a fixed value (eight hours per day) to simplify calculations.

It's somewhat simplified, but the annual worth method is used to compare investing in an idea relative to investing in the status quo. Since inflation would affect both equally, it cancels out of these equations.

However, factoring in inflation is necessary if you want to calculate the present or future value of the savings (annual payment).

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I didn't see a lumen rating anywhere on that site. Do you own any of these? What's the lumen rating ?


Yes. My point was, the analysis depends heavily on the electric rates in your local area.


Of course. But in summer you use the lights a whole lot less, and most days (in colder climates) you can leave the windows open and let the breeze cool the room.


The operative phrase above is highlighted. In my post, I specifically mentioned colder climates.


Thanks for clarifying that.


But "break even point relative to the entire life of the bulb" is not the metric you care about. To illustrate this point by (unrealistic) exaggeration, imagine you used each bulb only 2 minutes per day. The break-even point would be too far out into the future to even make a useful analysis.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Precisely. It's minimal. But that's what the whole case for LEDs is based on: the "minimal" "waste" heat generated by the inefficient incandescent bulbs.

So, either the "waste" heat is minimal and we shouldn't bother about it, or it's not minimal, in which case it should be factored into the equation.

By the way, in the winter, I keep 7 100-watt incandescent bulbs burning in desk, table, and floor lamps situated throughout the study, and it keeps the room nice and comfortable.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

You can quibble over the math and assumptions all you want. Regardless of the nuances there, it is clear to me that these can indeed "pay for themselves", and I think most of us (maybe not the general population) can get past the psychology and invest now for future savings...

Having said that, I still won't buy them (for an entirely different reason). It is my belief that this technology is changing so rapidly that I am better off waiting. In a couple years, the efficiencies will be even better, and the cost will be dramatically less.

To me, it's not a question of if, but rather when. Early adopters always get burned. Think of the guy that spent $5K on that 50" plasma TV. Now they are approaching $500 (10X reduction). I believe it won't be very long at all before the $20 LED bulb costs $2 (maybe even a couple years). Then I will put them all over the place while feeling sorry for the poor saps that paid $20 each.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

But you calculations make my point. Instead of using average costs for the country you picked a rate that's almost 4 times what I would pay, a light bulb cost way too high and a usage rate above what my hardest used light bulb would generate. Things like that make my skeptic alarm go off, big time.

That's what salespeople do, over exaggerate things to prove their point.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I did the calculations for both Connecticut (as an extreme) and the US national average. The US average is $0.1153/kWh, and the stated average for an Indiana residential property in August 2010 is $0.091/kWh. Redoing the math from my first post using the Indiana electricity price yields an annual savings of $14.43. Plugging that into the annual worth equation yields annual savings of $11.77. At these usage levels, it would take just over two years to break even. At lower usage levels (four hours per day), it would take ~4.5 years to break even. Over the lifespan of the bulb (neglecting inflation or electricity price changes) this still results in a net profit of $128.

Either way, these calculations won't matter after 2012 when new energy efficiency standards take effect that require all standard light bulbs between 310 and 2600 lumens to be 30% more efficient than baseline incandescent bulbs, or in 2020 when even tighter standards will require all bulbs to produce at least 45 lumens per watt. While this has spurred more innovation in lighting technology in the past five years than the previous fifty, the core benefits from all improved technology have thus far been from long-term savings and benefits. It's likely that as the technology improves and production ramps up the initial prices of these improved bulbs (whether CFL, LED or high-efficiency incandescent) will approach parity with plain incandescent bulbs.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

But are those rates all peak? That would also throw you off.

Here in Indy the rate is less than your stated average Indiana average .08794 peak .06119 mid-peak and .02948 off peak.

But that doesn't change my original point of the numbers presented by advocates being worst case instead of real world and we haven't even discussed equivalent lumens yet.

also when the world ends on Dec 21 2012 it won't matter anyway :)

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

The bulbs themselves are a great idea. But having your kids try to sell them may not be such a great idea. Most consumers won't make this very large, short term, investment for a long term gain, regardless of the accuracy of the calculations. The vast majority of consumers are not going to think about this like engineers. It is just the nature of the consumer beast.

The bottom line is that you are asking teenagers to sell $25 lightbulbs to their grandmothers. That is who is going to buy most of these bulbs. There are just better things to sell, like Hexbugs.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

You got most of it covered here Art.

Running an LED bulb off the same ballast as a flourescent is almost out of the question, so some rework of a fixture must be done to switch it to LED.

Also, those flourescent bulbs are pretty $@#$@#$@#$@# bright! Some people take those simple flourescent tubes for granted, but they are able to light very large spaces relatively cheaply thanks to the massive adoption of consumers.


Good job on the cost breakdown Art, I was going to attempt something similar, but simply didn't have the time to.

The numbers can be quibbled over and massaged to everyones liking, but there is a real cost savings potential in LED technology, this is a fact. Art is smart to point out an example like plasma TVs. When flat screens first came out people were paying through the nose for the new technology. Now, you can pick up a new ~37" plasma screen on black friday for less than 300 bucks.

The real cost savings will come from widespread adoption of the technology. It may take a while yet, which is why I do not blame people for being skeptical. However, you cannot ignore the changing of the tide that will surely come in the next few years as incandescents will have to face very strict efficiency ratings.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Is this the project funded by the Google grant? Jump starting student fundraising?
http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/conte...1&terms=google

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

A couple of thoughts Brandon:

Refining a design or an analysis is not "quibbling". It is an essential part of the iterative engineering process.

None of the posts in this thread have taken issue with the "potential" for savings. Everyone seems to agree on that.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I'm glad we're in agreement on that point then.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Asking high school students to sell $25 light bulbs is almost the dumbest thing FIRST has ever done.

My team will not be participating and I will guess most other teams will not either.
You want to math problems. Figure out what it would cost you if you replaced yogurt entire house with these.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

There have been some great posts here and there have been a lot of less than informed posts as well.

First, I've seen several posts reporting a price of $25/bulb when FIRST's suggested retail price is $19.99/bulb. The "wholesale" price to teams is about $6/bulb. I see nothing forcing teams to sell at $20/bulb. A team appears to be free to set the price as they see fit. I believe teams are free to offer extra savings for quantity orders. If I can sell a case of bulbs at $10/bulb to a single customer, I'm still realizing $120 profit/case. FIRST was clear that they were not expecting teams to sell door to door to residential customers. A team's best strategy would be to approach commercial customers and offer a bulk discount on quantity orders. Think of all those restaurants that have pendant (hanging fixtures) lights over booths or dining tables. There are still a large number running incandescent bulbs, and even if using CFLs there is still 10-20% energy savings switching to LEDs. The penetration of LED technology into the lighting arena is almost barely measurable at this point so there is a lot of room for sales.

There has been a lot of bad information on fluorescent lighting here. Even conventional fluorescent tubes have seen major improvements in efficiency. The old standard T12 is being replaced by T8 and now T5 high efficiency models. Someone asked about replacing fluorescent tubes with LED technology. It does exist, but is still prohibitively expensive. The retro fit kit requires the fluorescent tubes and ballast be removed, a LED driver be installed and then wired into LED arrays that are mount where the tubes used to be. The old tube sockets are not used at all, they are abandon in place. A two element LED retro fit kit for a standard 2'x4' T8 or T5 troffer fixture (the 2'x4' fixtures used in drop ceilings) cost about $150-250 currently. Also, since the technology is still in its infancy, there are no standards yet. Installing one of these retro fit kits or replacing a fluorescent fixture with a LED unit means you need to go back to that manufacturer for replacements when they're needed. No telling if they'll still be in business when you need replacements. I'd wait to replace or retro fit standard tube fluorescent lights until there are some industry standards.

CFLs are a different issue altogether. They are and always have been a stop gap solution until LED technology matured. They are almost exclusively manufactured overseas and in locations that don't have a good handle on QC. Art04 mentioned that newer CFLs are manufactured with less mercury than earlier models, but I'd take that with a grain of salt based on those QC issues. My utility offers fluorescent disposal to our customers because of the issues with mercury. We've also seen some nasty failures with CFLs from customers. Several near fires due to failures of the ballast on a CFL. If you're paying $2 for a CFL, you're getting what you paid for. A good quality CFL should still be around $5/bulb.

Light output is diminished with decreased ambient temperatures with all fluorescent fixtures. Some improvements have been made, but fluorescent bulbs are slow to reach maximum lumen output in lower temperatures. The biggest problem with fluorescent lights, especially in residential applications, is that life expectancy and light output is measurably reduced by the number of on-off cycles. Fluorescent lights are designed to be turned on and left on for long periods of time (8+ hours). In a home where we are always turning lights on and off fluorescent lights will perform worse than their published specs. Fluorescent lights can not be used with dimmers unless they have dimmable ballasts.

LED lighting technology has two major components that are not readily perceived in these bulb style packages. There is the circuit that transforms and rectifies the AC to DC at a voltage usable by the LED itself. These circuits are becoming known as the LED Driver. Then there is the actual LED or array of LEDs which are becoming known as Light Engines. What tends to fail on LED lighting is the driver circuit and these can be susceptible to lightning damage. Incandescent and to some degree fluorescent bulbs are more robust when it comes to lightning surges. We'll have to see how LED technology handles surges.

LED lighting provides better lumen output over life of the bulb. Incandescent, fluorescent, and HID high intensity discharge (metal halide, sodium, and mercury vapor) lose as much as 50% of their lumen output by 50% of their life expectancy. Tests so far have shown that LEDs tend to maintain 80-90% of their lumen output through about 90% of their life span. The problem with LED light output is that the output tends to be very directional. That explains why some people who have seen these lights displayed by Dean reported them being blinding, but the lumen output is less than a 60W incandescent. The reported lumen output is an average lumen/meter output. Lenses improve the light spread, but there is still work to be done in this area. As a task light these LEDs should be great. For general area lighting they will be a little weaker than the equivalent incandescent or fluorescent bulbs.

Like any electronic component, life span is affected by heat. Good heat sinking is necessary. In a standard Edison Base bulb there isn't a lot of room for the heat sinks. On the high output LED street lights that I've inspected so far, they have several pounds worth of cast aluminum heat sink on the LED driver. A very good LED light can have a life span of up to 50,000 hours so I'm a little disappointed by the e-saver's published life expectancy which is on par with typical CFLs. I'm also disappointed that these are non-dimmable LED bulbs. I'm sure that has to do with how the driver circuit is designed and keeping the price point down. Most LEDs should be dimmable to about 10% lumen output. I'm also not a fan of the warm light color temperature of 2700K. I prefer natural or daylight color temperature which is around 5000K. That's just personal preference, but the higher color temps cost more money too.

Other than these minor issues, I think the bulb offer is competitive for teams. The equivalent price in Home Depot or Lowes is about $23-25/bulb currently. When those prices go down, teams are free to reduce their offering price to stay ahead of the retailers and still make a decent profit margin. Will teams make thousands selling these bulbs, some might if they work hard at it, but I see this as just another source of revenue for teams.

Ether joked (I think) about using incandescent bulbs to augment his heat in the winter. Well those bulbs are inefficient lighting devices and even more inefficient heating devices. I'll stick with my heating plant that is designed to heat my living space, not use light bulbs. I don't like CFLs and have always planned to stop using them as soon as LED technology matured. I think that technology is getting to the point where it makes sense now. I'll be buying these bulbs and I expect that my team will make some money selling bulbs as well.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Several incandescent bulbs burning in a closed room for an extended period of time do noticeably raise the room temperature. They are like mini radiant space-heaters. And they are quiet :-)

In areas of the country where electricity is cheap and heating fuel is expensive, taking the "waste heat saves heating fuel" phenomenon into account can affect the lifecycle cost analysis of incandescent vs the alternatives. In some rural areas serviced by nuclear power plants, the $/BTU for off-peak electricity is cheaper than $/BTU for heating fuel.


The bulb is actually 100% efficient at turning electrical power into light and heat. I mean, where else is the input power gonna go?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Well if you're using it as a heater, the wasted input energy is coming off as light. So if you're using more bulbs just to get heat you are wasting energy in the form of unnecessary light. Before I relied on the added heating of incandescent bulbs I'd improve the heat loss efficiency of my building.

Remember that the average human being generates as much heat as a 100W incandescent bulb. So why not just invite the rest of the family into the room for the added heating load, and save some electricity.

Also, unfortunately thanks to deregulation low cost electricity is disappearing. Why should I sell my watts to you for $0.08/kwhr, when I can can reach customers through the grid willing to buy at $0.11/kwhr or more. But that is entirely a different story.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Yep, they made quite a few bulbs: Source: http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/28/d...e-led-light-b/

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

That wasn't really the point. The point was, the "waste" heat is not wasted. It heats the room.

You can't have it both ways. If you argue that the heating effect is so small that it can be ignored, then this argument can be turned around to say that the energy savings associated with using a technology with less waste heat can be ignored.

What do you think happens to those unnecessary photons when they bounce off the walls a couple of times?


So would I, but that has no logical connection to the point being made.


Because then the rest of the house would get colder? :-)


So is low-cost heating fuel. It's not the cost of electricity that factors into the analysis, it's the difference in $/BTU for electricity vs $/BTU for whatever heating fuel is available for your home.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Very good point here! My mom noticed a difference in our kitchen in that it was much colder when we switched from incandescents to CFL's. I also notice the difference in the winter with the lights on my car being iced over and I would have to clean them every once and a while. So back to incandescents for me!

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

You know, I have sat by the side for a long time on this thread, but it's to a point I feel like my $0.02 is necessary. I agree completely with Skimoose and thank him for his posts.

I hope many teams see this as an opportunity to fundraise, the whole point of this program. The fact that these bulbs will be cheaper in the future is a badly beaten dead horse. We have a fairly large team this year, so I will calculate this as if I was part of... a twenty person team.

If the team buys one case and sells it:
30 Bulbs @ $20 apiece = $600 Total
$600 - $180($6 fee per bulb) = $420
Meaning that if each person on the team sells one or two bulbs, the team gets $420 Dollars.

If the team buys two cases and sells it:
60 Bulbs @ $20 apiece = $1200 Total
$1200 - $360($6 fee per bulb) = $840
Meaning that if each person on a twenty person team sells three bulbs, the team gets $840

If the team buys three cases and sells it:
90 Bulbs @ $20 apiece = $1800 Total
$1800 - $540($6 fee per bulb) = $1260
Pushing it to the edge of these kids here, but if every kid on a twenty member team sells three or four bulbs, the team end up with $1260.

Personally, this is easy money from FIRST and Cree for us as FRC teams. Yes, after you parents buy one or two to make your life easier, it may take a few days to run into some neighbors and get them to buy a bulb for your Robotics Team. Let’s say... it takes two weeks total for your team to get your members to sign off on these bulbs... but at the end of those two weeks you get a good amount of money. Again tell me if I am being obnoxious here, but I believe that taking the time to do a fundraiser and get the team members involved with team funds is not a waste of time, especially considering the harsh economy and how hard some teams are finding it to keep going.

Again, this is my $0.02 on the matter.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Come on guys, quit being engineers just long enough to see that the consumer market won't care about nitpicking a few bucks of saving in a year or two or three. If you want to sell the bulbs, take a hint from Apple -- they sell overpriced pinholed technology all the time and make billions! Stay positive when talking about the selling points, deflect all questions about the negative points, and insert subliminal messages that make a buyer think it's the best light bulb invention since the original by Edison (et al) ... and maybe even thrown in some trash-talk about competing technologies! It's probably best to put a tidbit in the sales pitch that says each bulb sold isn't only going to a company's profits but also to the local community's benefit. We know that there are long-term benefits to the bulbs, yet giving the consumers specific numbers in this regards will typically just confuse them. Keep it simple.

As much as I have a love/hate relationship with Ether's incessant pointing out of the minute technicalities that are both correct and (sometimes) irrelevant, I have to admit that in this thread the implications of his points have been dead on in that the benefits aren't necessarily quantified as the obvious observations presumed they would be. is that a run-on sentence? I can't tell...

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Interesting you should mention that. Reminded me of another Engadget post about traffic lights retrofitted with LEDs that were covered by snow:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/17/l...use-accidents/

Still, I do agree with JesseK that this is a great opportunity to raise money for teams.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

One of the "tech" fixes mentioned in the article that is being considered is adding a heating element to the LED fixture. How ironic.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Haha, oh that is funny!

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

But at least that heating element doesn't need to run all the time, as the lights do. It can be intelligent enough to know when its cold and has to turn on and off.

-Brando

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Of course.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I think a big, not-to-be-underestimated selling point of these light bulbs is the green aspect. Green technology is hot right now, and whether or not you buy into anthropogenic global warming or not, I think we all pretty much agree that dependency on fossil fuels is a Bad Thing(TM). If we can reduce this Bad Thing(TM) while saving ourselves money and supporting a local club that does lots of great stuff, that is a Good Thing(TM).

Yeah?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

The argument you presented above is not valid, of course, if you live in an area where electricity comes from nuclear, and heating fuel is a fossil fuel.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Why would you say that? Is it the "lesser of two evils" (fossil fuel vs radiation risk), the fact that the fossil fuel is being used for heating, not electricity generation, or something else?

You're not making sense here, Ether.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Think it through logically Eric. Patrick stated that using LED bulbs reduces use of fossil fuels. If your electricity is being generated by nuclear, then if you replace incandescents with LEDs it does not reduce fossil fuel consumption. Don't read anything more than that into it.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Maybe not all of us live in an area powered by nuke plants. San Onofre hasn't been producing in quite a while to the best of my knowledge. You could also make the same argument for hydroelectric, and to a lesser extent, wind and solar. But if most of your power comes from coal, natural gas, or oil, then it does make sense.

The part that didn't make sense was that you simply quoted the part that read, in effect, reducing dependency on fossil fuels is a good thing, then said that it didn't make sense--and the rest of the post didn't specify anything about LED bulbs reducing use of fossil fuels. It took way too much thinking to be able to make that connection easily.

Then you get the marketing part, which has a grain of truth in it. What is being pushed more than anything else right now? "Green" technology, good for the environment, stuff like that. Your average consumer might not know that most of their power comes from renewable sources or nuclear power, and would then figure that this is going to help save the planet, whether or not they eventually decide that it'll save them money. Ignorance is not always bliss...

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Demonstrably true indeed. But orthogonal to the specific point being made.

I did not say "reducing dependency on fossil fuels does not make sense". I said that the generalized argument that fossil fuel use can be reduced by using LED instead of incandescent technology "is not valid if you live in an area where electricity comes from nuclear." Nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps. I will keep that in point in mind.

To each his own, but to me this is dishonest. Vive la difference

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I was thinking the same thing, except "unethical" instead of "dishonest". It's like the lottery: a tax on people who don't understand math. Except that in this case it's more a lack of information than a lack of math understanding. I would advise teams who are thinking of using that line of marketing to check where their power typically comes from beforehand and adjust accordingly. There's already enough misinformation, deliberate or not, in commercials--why add to that misinformation just because your team needs to raise money?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

You're reading into it more than he intended. He made the post to say that the "uses less fossil fuels" argument is based on an assumption that isn't always true depending on your electricity arrangement, so the sweeping general statement is invalid (as sweeping general statements tend to be).

If you have alternate heating and want to cut down on fossil fuels, a space heater is probably a lot more efficient.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I think we worked that out amicably Chris, thanks.

FWIW: Sometimes when multiple users are posting to the same thread within a small time window, the individual posts do not always appear exactly in the order they were submitted.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

The argument about fossil fuel usage while using an LED bulb, in the context of trying to sell said LED bulbs, is irrelevant because of the fact that "Green" marketing sells. LED bulbs are on the market because they reduce consumption of electricity over time -- regardless of whether that reduces fossil fuel usage or not, the average american will see that as a "Green" thing to do. Consumers who like buying things because they're "Green" will buy the bulbs regardless of what actually happens in regards to fossil fuels. My favorite depiction of the power and ridiculousness of such marketing schemes is here.

Good points for techies though.

edit --

Ironically enough, slashdot just pointed to an article about how some regions may be 'powered' by alkali fuels rather than fossil fuels. Heh.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Two comments. First, can one of the moderators move this to the General Forum? It seems to me that it has matured out of the rumor stage and would be better served there.

Second, since I tend to be cynical and don't trust venders very much, I wouldn't feel comfortable selling these bulbs for any reason until I have tried them out for a year or two. My experience with LED lights has not been very good. I have no problem selling Worlds Finest Chocolate for a buck a bar since I have 'tested to the extreme' and found them worthy of trust. I just don't have the trust for a brand I am not familiar with and a general product I have not had success with. Sorry!

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Lowe's has 8w Sylvanias at $19.98 now

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Is that the regular price or a special sale price ?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

new lower price

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

That could be problemmatic to the fundraiser... :eek:

On the other topic:

The electrical grid in the US is all interconnected, so the aggregate energy usage of those who live in areas powered by nuclear energy still has an impact on fossil fuel usage at large.

It would also have a net effect on cost for that nuclear energy specifically.

(Of course, nothing ever being as simple as it seems, if we all switched all of our lighting to LEDs, it's quite possible that the depressed demand and resulting depressed cost of energy would result in more fossil fuels being used... I'm not an expert on the economic interconnectivity and the long-range ramifications of a switch to ultra-high efficiency lighting.)

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

You raise an excellent point, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. For example, is there a radius beyond which the transmission losses make it too inefficient to export/import power on a continuing (non-emergency) basis?

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

It always, always, always is. :)

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Sort of. The United States actually has three independent electric grids that aren't connected to each other. There have been proposals to build a super-conducting hub to connect the three to allow for better utilization of potential wind farms in the Great Plains. Other proposals have been made to build new super-conducting transmission lines along railroads; electric companies benefit from having a clear right of way and railroads benefit from electrification.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

Yeah, I know. Please refer to my previous post! ;)

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

My sister is a Girl Scout, and those cookies are a rip-off. All the money goes back to the GS HQ, and then the troop only gets back $0.50 per box. At least with these we get to set the price.

Re: FIRST Fundraiser: Selling LED "Lightbulbs"
 

I think that is OK, the spin is: For one more penny, you can support an awesome robotics team, and save the hassle of going to Lowe's to buy your bulbs. Or you can save a penny at Lowe's... your call.