Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

From Bills Blog....

• AC power at drivers station.
• Use any PC instead of classmate

One character at a time


Good Afternoon Teams,

I’m typing slowly with my left hand because I had carpal tunnel surgery yesterday, but the show must go on (and this is much more interesting than recuperating at home).

News from the GDC who are writing the Game Manual right now:

• The 2011 game field will have powered AC adapters for the Classmate in each driver station. The adapter may only be used to power the Classmate and the power outlet dedicated to the AC adapter may not be used for any other purpose.
• Teams will not be restricted to the Classmate as their driver station in 2011 assuming that certain criteria are met and all relevant rules are followed. More details on this rule will be available in the Game Manual when it is released.
• The 2011 Driver Station software will support Windows 7 and XP. Other operating systems have not been tested.

FRC is launching the Beta version of a Virtual Technical Advisor (VTA) system this week. Everyone is invited to visit https://my.usfirst.org/FIRSTPortal/L...ual_login.aspx where teams may request help and adults with technical skills can offer assistance. The system will match teams with technical advisors who are then encouraged to communicate through whatever means best suits them (skype, email, live chat, etc.).

The Chairman’s Award, Woodie Flowers Award, and Website Award submission systems open in STIMS tomorrow Thursday, November 11th and close Thursday, February 17th. The FIRST Dean’s List Award submission system, originally scheduled to open tomorrow, will be delayed until the award criteria for 2011 is finalized. I’ll let you know when it’s ready.

New this year, Team Main and Alternate Contacts will be able to see in TIMS when the student submitters have submitted awards. (The Main and Alternate Contacts will not be able to see the award submission itself, just that it is complete.) If your team has not yet assigned student award submitters, now is a good time to take care of that.

My congratulations to team 3132 Thunder Down Under who have been accepted into the TEDx Youth @ Sydney ideas conference where they will spread the word about FIRST. You can see their submission video here.

My congratulations and best wishes to Tony and Samantha Norman who were married this past weekend. Tony has been a supporter and contributor to FRC for many years.

Please note that AMEX/Take Part voting for FIRST officially closes at 11:59pm ET on Sunday, November 21st. Get your votes in.

59 days to Kickoff
See you then!

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Very awesome news! I can think of quite a few models (depending on the requirements) that have much better battery and performance than the Classmate.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

It would be awesome to use a good laptop, and run a 3d model of the robot on the dashboard. Where it thinks it is, where it wants to be, what it is doing, everything represented in a nice visual model (Although numbers are still nice for tweaking). This would only be required if the robot had an arm or something of the like, since a ball shooter wouldn't require much 3d representation.

The way he worded it, it sounds as though you have to use the provided laptop to get AC power. More info in January, I guess.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I was thinking the same thing. It only says "Classmate". In the current wording (and not necessarily what may be legal in a few months), it would appear that you're on your own for battery power. But then again, if you're using a different machine, battery power may not be an issue.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

This makes me very very happy.

Soon to be gone are the days of running around trying to borrow a battery during eliminations!

-Nick

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

SO HAPPY!

The Classmate is a great, cheap little laptop (with its own charm and set of nuisances). But nothing tops freedom!

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Allowing teams to use something other than the classmate just makes sense.

The classmates add a decent amount of cost to the kits, and while they do their job well, a couple of years from now some of these classmates will be hanging by a thread. It just makes sense to allow teams to use any laptop they have, especially if teams lose/break/forget their classmate.

Good Job FIRST.

-Brando

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

That's awesome. No more worrying about the battery. Whew.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Bill,
Thanks for the great early Christmas Present!
Al

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Well it's about time!

I'm pretty happy about this change!

For me, I never really hated the classmates, and 1071 never really had problems with it. What I am happy about now though is that if you need a replacement laptop, or a 2nd one for a backup robot, you don't have to go through the hassle of getting an official FIRST one.

Let's just hope the official rules with the power outlets get realized soon so we can figure out if it is classmate exclusive or not.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

(emphasis mine)

A powered AC adapter is NOT the same as AC Power. The post means that the same kind of adapter that teams use to charge their Classmate - delivering DC power - will be at the drivers station for teams to use.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Just wondering: Does anyone have (and can share) insight into the factors that led to this decision?

If limiting power was the primary concern, why not just put a fuse (or breaker) on each AC outlet? That couldn't be any more expensive than purchasing a bunch of Classmate chargers, could it?

I'll take a stab at answering my own question. Chargers for standard-size laptops require more power than a Classmate charger? And they didn't want a bunch of complaints about popping fuses and/or tripping breakers?

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I can tell you why I lobbied for backup power at the driver's stations. If a team fails in a match because the power on the Classmate failed then that is problem. I saw it on more than one occasion throughout the season and I know that in the finals on Einstein at least one team had to be backed up with a battery and inverter to keep the team playing. This measure should go a long way to keep that from happening.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

The decision I was referring to is this decision:

... any other purpose... like powering a laptop instead of a Classmate

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

The way I understood it was that at each station, there will likely be at least two 120V standard slots like there would be in a normal house. One is dedicated to the classmate adapter and the other is empty and ready for general use. That was the way I understood it, but then again, I'm just theory crafting. What can I know for sure? :rolleyes:

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Yay, now I don't have to speedhack Classmates anymore...not that anyone ever allowed me anywhere NEAR a Classmate to begin with...

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

That answer will come with the manual unless we get another blog post from Bill. If that is a rule that the power outlet can ONLY power the classmate, that would be one of the weirdest rules ever. But before we jump to conclusions, I'll wait for kickoff and the manual. ;)

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Hopefully FIRST has common sense and will write the rules to allow all laptops access to power. I'm sure Bill was just trying to get the point across that you shouldn't being adding components that require access to power besides your laptop of choice for the Driver's station.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

This sounds like a pretty standard FRC HQ move: hilariously cautious but in the right direction.

I'm happy with it even if the most conservative interpretation ("we provide power for classmates and classmates only") is what ends up happening. I'd be more happy with more liberal interpretations, but it is always easier for HQ to loosen restrictions than it is for them to tighten them.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

It's also easier and arguably more accurate to take what HQ says at face value until further interpretation, rather than trying to break it down like a Dave Lavery game hint.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I see this as FIRST seeing the problems with the hardware they gave us and making an effort to resolve one of the issues. They gave us a part the is supposed to last more than one season and the battery does not last. I would be surprised if FIRST allowed any other use for the power.

Given the dimensions of the drivers station shelf and the abuse the drivers station wall gets, I would hesitate using any laptop that I wanted to keep. That we can use a backup laptop if needed is quite a bonus.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I'm glad to see the classmates becoming a thing of the past. I can't wait to be able to use a real laptop in the driver's station.

I'm a bit upset that we (FRC Community) must read into statements like "The adapter may only be used to power the Classmate and the power outlet dedicated to the AC adapter may not be used for any other purpose." and try to figure out how literally it is meant. In most cases I would read something like that and assume that any laptop used as part of the controls would be able to use this outlet and thus be refereed to as a "Classmate", but knowing FIRST they wouldn't think this way.

I really hope they allow any laptop used in place of a classmate to use this outlet.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

My guess is that the socket is not in an easily accessible location. They can run the classmate adapters when the field is set up, however it might take to long if teams were constantly trying to plug and unplug their laptops between matches.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I really hope the power location is readily accessible. Honestly if I was the big man making all the descions, just have the power done like many invitationals this year did with little boxes on the dash of every station, and just have refs do a quick check to make sure nothing but the laptop/netbook of choice is the only thing drawing power directly (nothing formal just take a peek as the bots are being loaded onto the field).

As said before though, we can shoot ideas back and forth all day (just like what the games gonna be) but it's one of those things we won't know until Januraryish)

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

The best solution is to provide a single a single mains power outlet at each of the three driver stations for powering any operator interface laptop. A relatively inexpensive COTS part to provide this exact functionality already exists; it can simply be zip tied into inside corner between the shelf and the vertical shield.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Thanks for the suggestion....perhaps something we can get for BASH next year!

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

It never ceases to amaze me how a simple statement in Bill's blog can cause such rancor and debate.

Can't we wait to see what is actually provided at the drivers station before we go nuts?


I would have no problem with FIRST providing a power connector for the classmates like they used to do for the old drivers station. If you chose to use a different notebook you're on your own.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Whoa. I don't sense any rancor. Nobody's going nuts. It's a friendly discussion.


It would certainly be better than nothing.

Can't we wait to see what is actually provided at the drivers station before we make that conclusion? :)

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

What Bill has said:

1. There will be Classmate power adapters at every driver's station.
2. Classmates will not be the only legal driver's station; other computers will also be legal pending further rule decisions.
3. No other computer can use the Classmate supply, or the AC power port. (implied/stated)

What Bill has not said:

1. They won't change their minds on #3 above.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Bill made that post partly to generate discussion and see what we as competitors thought about it, and if we had any input.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

If you happen to draw from the same size and voltage of DC plug you could just plug your eee pc or whatever in....

Just sayin.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I don't have the Classmate charger specs handy (perhaps someone does?) but I suspect it's not designed to provide the current required for a full size laptop.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

That piece just cracks me up, this is ChiefDelphi after all. How could we not have input galore :D

I wonder if they are going to run the power from the same power that runs the SCC (the computer at each end of the field). Or if they are going to run another power source.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I'm getting grumpy in my old age :)

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Old age? Yikes! I'll trade birthdays with you :)

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

THANK YOU!!! That classmate is CRAP. During the competition last year the battery fell out of ours and we have to hold in with tape now, and it only has about 300 MB of hard drive space left. What a relief!

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

Just going to throw a wild idea out here:

----A device that can be attached to the outside of a classmate power supply that uses the inductive nature of the power supply to power another device. In other words, build an alternative output coil for the input coil already in the power supply (power supplies still use transformers, don't they?) to power other devices without needing to directly connect to the power outlet or the output from the power supply.

also, look for a really efficient PC because I can't imagine this delivering too much power, considering the loss that would likely occur through the power supply's 'shell'.

Re: Bills Blog - Classmate announcement
 

I know I'm late, but if you go back and lisen to the Senior Mentor Call for FRC/Control System/Driver’s Station & Beta Test Observations, they mention about NEW Classmates for 2011 with bigger screens, better battery, and a bigger hard drive.

Meeting Outline
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...emCall2010.pdf

Recorded Call
http://www2.usfirst.org/ftpdoc/FRCControlSystem.mp3