Welding Advice
 

Hello All,

Our team recently was the recipient of a very generous grant, and I'd like to put it to use by adding some bigger pieces to our workshop. I've looked into welding, but have no expience with it. So, if you could provide some feedback, I'd appreciate it.

I've done some searching on Chief Delphi, and it seems that a TIG welder may be the best option because of the ability to weld aluminum, and to teach students to do the work. I've put together a list of my best estimation of what to get. Any feedback on whether this would be worth the investment, and feasible to learn how to use effectively would be fantastic. Keep in mind that we have one staff member who has a small amount of stick welding experience, and that's as far as our welding knowledge goes.

Here's the list all from Cyberweld
http://store.cyberweld.com/mitigwedi180.html

Miller TIG Welder Diverson 180
Cover for welder
welding gloves
running gear cylinder rack
40 cu.ft. Gas Tank
Argon Gas
archer tig pen
harris al welding wire 3#
welding helmet
cloth apron
capesleeve


Thanks,

Team 2709 Chicago IL

Re: Welding Advice
 

Do you have a way to screen off the area/corner where the welding will take place?

Re: Welding Advice
 

You'll want more than one helmet (especially considering you want to teach others). Try for auto-darkening, you'll thank yourself later. And I would try to find someone with some solid experience, even if they can only come a few times. Local machine shops, etc might be a good place to start.

My only experience is with MIG welding, and nothing spectacular at that, but think of basic cleaning tools as well. At the least some steel wool and a chipping hammer would start you off. I'd think you'll want an angle grinder at some point, though we waited a bit to get ours. And of course the ever-necessary C-clamps and jig materials, which you probably already have. If you were going MIG you'd have to deal with slag on them, but I don't think TIG has any similar problems.

TIG has some consumables too, stuff like lenses and collets, though I don't know much about them. Not horribly expensive, but something to keep in mind price-wise if you're not already.

Good luck and stay safe! It should be a good time.

Re: Welding Advice
 

Take a look at your local Tech Colleges (2 year) and see if they offer night classes for TIG welding. Find a high school student and/or mentor to take that. Might be late now for 2011 build but good for next year.

Otherwise ask your welding shop about a person that could teach for a Saturday to the students. Small fee to the instructor?

The worst thing would be buying a welder and having damage or safety issues.

Troy

Re: Welding Advice
 

Hmmm.....I'd spend some time thinking about what equipment you could use with your current knowledge/skills/abilities? There's a kind of steep learning curve with TIG welding, or maybe I just say that because I never got very good at it, and have found plenty of other ways to build robots.

Without knowing what other stuff you have in your shop, it's kind of hard for us to help you prioritize.

Re: Welding Advice
 

You may need a couple different size Tungstens and will need a dedicated wheel or belt to sharpen them. Also some TIG nozzles (gas cup) and collets of the appropriate size for your torch and Tungsten size. It looks like one 3/32" collet and gas cup come with the unit. I'd consider an 80 C.F. Argon tank at least.

There's some info here and links to other resources:

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...ints_tips.html

More info: http://www.thefabricator.com/article...right-tungsten

I've had this seller (Tungsten-Direct) recommended for Tungstens:

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/tungsten-direct


Were you going to get the 4043 filler rod? Have a size in mind?

Here's a link to the Miller manuals in case you want to read up. Page 31 has more info on the Tungstens and sharpening.

http://www.millerwelds.com/service/o...uals.php?model

Edit: If you want to weld Aluminum (and have 240v power available) another choice would be a Hobart Handler 210 with spoolgun. It's available in a package for under $900. To do both steel and Aluminum you'd need two gas cylinders - Argon and Argon/CO2 mix, but overall cost would be less. MIG is easier to learn than TIG.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...2663_200392663

Re: Welding Advice
 

If you are serious about tig welding I would suggest teaming up with a local welding supply company and see if they can help with training and supplies. Our longest current sponsor is our local welding supply company. They have been an awesome partner. They provide us argon re-fills, tungsten, welding rod, and collets. See if there is a local company that also teaches classes. Every couple of years we team up with other local teams and teach a welding class there. It has worked out for the welding company, our sponsor purchased 2 welders from them and we have had other teams that have attended the trainings buy welding machines. We also do buy some things every couple of years. We purchased a second small tank for argon because you don't want to be welding on a Saturday night and have your tank run out. Welding helmets do need replacing after many years of use. We have had our Miller welder since 2004 and it still runs great.

It has been a nice relationship because I have helped send many qualified welders thier way to work in the shop and help teach thier welding classes. They like cheap young employees and the kids like the work.

As for the difficulty in tig welding... For some people practice makes perfect, classes help. For some (very few) it just comes naturally, I just discovered a sophomore on our team who is a natural. For many, you will never be a great welder, no big deal I'm sure you are good a something.

Re: Welding Advice
 

We opted for MIG, rather than TIG. Cost of equipment was the major deciding factor. We weld Al with MIG. We did not benefit from professional instruction (wish we had).

I'd love to do TIG, but in defense of MIG, the learning curve is not so steep and in our 2nd year of welding, we only broken two welds. Pretty good considering the severety of BREAKAWAY competition. Our robot has been through 7 competitions so far (one to go - Ramp Riot) and a goodly number of demos, so it's gotten a lot of abuse.

Two welding helmets are a must. Self darkening (electrochromic). Expensive but essential.

You'll need isolation. Welding curtains will do.

Make certain the welding area is absolutely cleared of easily flammable material (sawdust, paper,...) before welding.

Keep a fire extinguisher, bucket of water and bucket of sand (to quench burning Al) handy. Safety should be first-of-mind while welding.

We have found the benefits of welding to be substantial. It allows more freedom of design and is an enormous help in weight management.

Re: Welding Advice
 

I was/am one of those welders. I echo what Rees just said in all ways. Miller Welders seem to be reliable machines. Partnering with a local welding company has helped in huge ways.


TIG welding is a skill that takes lots of practice to get decent at. Consistent practice helps a lot. Good luck and let us know if you need anything!

Re: Welding Advice
 

TIG does a great job on aluminum but it takes skill and skill takes practice- lots of practice. I took a 20 hour TIG class where we spent almost every hour welding. Now I can weld 0.125 inch aluminum fairly consistently, 0.090 is questionable and 0.062 is out of the question. Perhaps some students will quickly master the skill of simultaniously controling the torch, the filler rod and the power pedal but that's a lot to expect.

Re: Welding Advice
 

Irrespective of the type of welder, make sure that proper protective gear is worn. No skin should ever be exposed due to the intense UV light levels (especially TIG). Thin clothing and synthetics are unacceptable. I heard of a guy who ended up with a "sunburned" logo on his chest because the shirt passed the UV except where the logo was silkscreened on the shirt! A treated cotton welding jacket is cheap.

Aluminum must be absolutely clean for successful welding. Sanding or grinding should be done with a tool dedicated to Aluminum only. Degrease with a solvent but DO NOT use anything containing a chlorinated hydrocarbon! (Read this: http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm ) Brush away any oxides just prior to welding using a stainless steel brush that is dedicated for use on Aluminum only.

Here's a bit more on TIG welding Aluminum:

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...nt/tigalum.asp

My young one turned out to be a natural with TIG, after taking various community college welding classes. He started out with Oxy/Acetylene which helped with the filler-torch coordination needed for TIG. He even got a 3 month job reconditioning Inconel steam turbine blades at Alstom while he was still taking classes. The downside is that we now have 5 different welding rigs cluttering up the garage. :ahh:

Re: Welding Advice
 

Having used a Miller Diversion 165 and having experience TIG welding and teaching TIG welding I have some suggestions:

-Skip the Diversion unless you plan also buying a foot pedal. The finger control is handy for out-of-position welding, but is awkward to learn with. I would consider something from Everlast which is lighter-duty than the Miller, but a lower cost with more handy features.

-Spend extra money getting one or two good auto-tint helmets. I would get one with at least three light sensors (it sucks if all of the sensors become blocked for whatever reason, never happened with my 3-sensor lens but did with my 2-sensor lens). Observers/instructors can use solid lens helmets with no detriment.

-Get gloves with long cuffs, preferably a cuff that can be cinched over jacket sleeves. I really like my BSX welding jacket and gloves, best I've ever used but not the most expensive. $30 for the jacket and $20 for the gloves IIRC.

-If you're welding aluminum get 50Ar/50He mixed gas, makes TIG welding aluminum much easier than straight argon, worth every penny many times over. Get Ar as well if you plan to do steel welding.

-4340 AL rod will comfortably weld most aluminum alloys, this is your bread-and-butter welding rod. Be careful to ask for TIG rod, not to be confused with wire which usually refers to MIG wire.

-With TIG a welding apron isn't typically needed because there are no sparks or spatter.

-Get lanthanated or zirconated tungsten electrode packs (orange band and white band respectively). Pure tungsten is pure garbage and thoriated tungsten is radioactive :eek: . Get lots (1-2 packs of each size) of spare electrodes and nozzles, especially since your team is learning.

-Get a bench grinder to ONLY use for sharpening tungsten electrodes.

-Get an angle grinder with a flap sanding disc, this will make weld prep go very quickly.

-www.weldingtipsandtricks.com is just about the best website for practical welding advice. Jody, the guy who operates the site, is happy to answer questions via email and is very responsive. Read the pages on learning how to TIG weld aluminum, they are very useful.

Good luck! TIG welding is a great skill and not terribly difficult to learn. Just practice practice practice with bead on plate and you'll figure it out!

Feel free to PM or email me (jamesch13[at]gmail) with any questions as well!

Re: Welding Advice
 

Everyone is pretty much saying what I would've said.

As for learning to weld: aside from partnering up with local welding companies, any local technical colleges or universities (that have machine shops) should have a certified welder working with them who might be interested in helping out (my welding mentor is from the University of Wisconsin based in Milwaukee).

Also check with teams in the area and see if they can teach you guys. If you're willing to make the hike, we (1675) could probably work something out and we could do a saturday of getting you guys up to speed, but thats a distance and you seem to have plenty of resources close by.

Things to know:
Wire brushes are your friend.
Never underestimate the value in Proper Surface Preparation. Oxidation with TIG is a BIG DEAL. Too much (some might argue any) Oxidation makes welds that are both ugly and weak(er than clean welds).
If you get to "welding the robot" ready this year (but this applies always), make sure you always do a test weld on a different piece of the exact same material to dial the machine (but you'll probably learn this).
Now I'm digressing into welding tips and not general advice.

What has not been said though: Make sure you have a clean level surface of a different type of material (if you're just welding Al, a steel table does the job). If you have tables with bumps and the like, you're not going to get the piece you want.

Also, you have to have a bit bigger of tolerances with welding, because the heat warps the metal. There are "tricks" (but not really tricks) that you can do to "control" (but not really control)/minimize warping, but its important to keep in mind that you don't have absolute control over the final piece.

Re: Welding Advice
 

I too agree with everyone, but if you can't get some local help then i would vote against it, but it really does help with a lot of practice. If you don't have enough practice with the machine then you will have problems. If you are looking for a welded frame for this build season you'd better move fast. :)
-Ally

Re: Welding Advice
 

The Diversion 180 model does include a foot pedal.

If you are concerned about quality and support, I'd go with Miller (or Lincoln or ESAB or Hobart).

If you have questions, join the Hobart forum at http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/ There are some very experienced members there who are happy to help.

Re: Welding Advice
 

I see that from Miller it is not included, but from CyberWeld it is. Weird.

Re: Welding Advice
 

You must use a stainless steel brush to clean aluminum, any carbon steel brush will leave impurites.:D This is what I was told by TIG welders and also from my own experience.

Re: Welding Advice
 

It cannot be over-emphasized: ANY (any!) steel dust or even molecules will cause an Aluminum weld to be weak. ONLY Stainless steel brushes may be used, and these must never be used for any other metal. Get a small angle grinder as well.

Cleanliness is difficult but essential for welding aluminum. It oxidizes in a few seconds. Weld an inch or two, stop & clean, repeat.

Welding generates a lot of heat, and your metal will crack from thermal stress if you try to weld a long bead as one might attempt in steel. An inch at a time.

Acetone makes a suitable solvent, but of course it is dangerous and flammable.

Practice, practice, practice.

Re: Welding Advice
 

I am kinda the head mechanical mentor for team 1098. That is exactly the welder I bought personally and let the team use it. I have taught about 8 students how to use it. They have been training new students each year. I supervise this process but that welder is quite forgiving and works very well. Our students do 100% of our design, fabrication, programming, machining as well as the welding. Our expierenced welders do not use auto helmets, they as well as I hate them, but they are good teaching tool.

As a welder I think there is lots of good info here.

Re: Welding Advice
 

when you get a auto-darken hood, try to get a multi-setting one, because you will likely be using the hood for multiple welders that have different required darkness

Re: Welding Advice
 

My son uses both fixed-shade and auto-dark helmets. He says if you're running a lot of long beads that the fixed-shade is nice and more clear. If you have a lot of short welds and tacks, an auto-dark is convenient. He also likes the fixed shade helmets with the flip-down lens. Less neck strain.

Re: Welding Advice
 

Thank you all for the incredibly well thought out and thorough responses and advice. I think the best advice has been to reach out to an experienced welder locally. I'm currently hunting down a few leads with area colleges and pros, but if you have suggestions for someone from the Chicago area I'd be grateful. Again thanks for the huge response, its been really very valuable.

Re: Welding Advice
 

For the biggest bang for your buck take a look at pop rivet technology. Joining two pieces of metal with pop rivets is fast and economical and in most cases can substitute for welding. As a mentor for the team I encourage the team to try to make use of fastener technology like pem nuts, nuts and bolts, and pop rivets before resorting to welding to join metal.


Roy

Re: Welding Advice
 

In some cases, Team 975 used 10-32 cap screws to assemble a frame. Very strong and surprisingly cheap for a box of 100. Nyloc nuts were inexpensive as well. We got them at MSC.

Re: Welding Advice
 

Get a MIG. Miller has a lot of good options. It will weld aluminum much easer than TIG. Have someone help with the set up and you will have nice welds with little practice.
We have 2 mig wielders one for aluminum and one for steel. We also have a TIG but only two people can use it at all.