We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Howdy FIRSTers,

Im the president of a team that has participated in BEST for the past two years and is signed up to participate in FIRST for the first time in 2011. We received a grant from JC Penney to cover the cost of whatever it was that we owed FIRST, but also received a $6500 check from the Texas Governor's Office that we can spend how we like. Since FIRST is quickly approaching, we figure that we need to order whatever it is that we need to buy ASAP.

So...what should we do with the money?

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

At this point, the only thing I'd recommend buying is aluminum stock and tools. See, we don't know what the game is yet, so I'd rather not buy parts for a complete robot only to find that I've got to store them for a year or three.

Tools:
Cordless drill (2+)
Drill index
power saw (chop, jig)
2x sets of hex keys (both English and Metric)
Assorted screwdrivers
Safety glasses
Other assorted tools
(unless, of course, you have said tools from BEST use)

Aluminum stock: some 1x1x1/8" wall should do for starters.

Once FIRST Choice opens up a bit tomorrow, see what's available. If CIM motors are available, get a couple; if past years are anything to go by (they aren't in some--read, most--cases), you'll want them.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

New equipment, pool noodles, bribing Dave into givin us game hints.. Mainly the first two. You pretty much just need to make sure you're prepared for the season. Not sure how many robot-building things are really FRC-specific besides the pool noodles for bumpers..

That said, saving for next year is perfectly acceptable. I don't know if the Texas/JCP grants are 1-year only, but if so you'll certainly need the money.
Otherwise you'll want to consider things like upgrading your machine shop

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

That answers a lot of my question...so besides tooling, will we need any of the money to purchase things that actually end up on the robot?

We already have a pretty nice shop, but were considering purchasing a CNC mill. What are your thoughts on that?

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

If you can arrange it, maybe find another FRC team in the Dallas area and get a tour of their shop. That should help you get a handle on what's needed.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Buy a laptop, or more depending on how many programmers are on your team. You will not be able to stand coding on the class mate they provide, its too small. It does not even have to be all fancy, just a 15.6 inch screen should do fine.

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I would assume somebody has a laptop to lend. On our team, we use my laptop and Jim's laptop, and that is fine for all of our programming and CAD.

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Thanks for the advice, guys.

We already have a laptop and a shop full of basic tools, so it sounds like we'll be fine.

Should we be equipped to weld? Or will nuts and bolts be fine for that?

A fairly successful FIRST team is nearby (JJ Pearce), so we'll head over there and take a look at their shop. We were actually very close to teaming up with them for this first year, but we have a lot of female team members, they have none, and were grossly inappropriate at times.

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This is extremely disturbing and I hope you don't just let that go.

One of the most important things FIRST teaches is appropriate behavior and people skills (maybe the most important thing for many.)

Sounds like they would benefit a lot more from working with your team than you could learn from them. Please don't give up on these young men, they need help.

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How much should we allot for parts that we'll need that aren't in the KOP?

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

In prior years there has been a monetary limit of $3500 worth of parts not included in the KOP. A successful robot can be built with far less than this, however. In addition, many teams that do document $3500 of additional parts actually spend less than that because some of the parts or raw materials may be in-kind donations.

If you have the funds, it may be wise to reserve a full $3500, but if you have other things that you want to purchase you can certainly get by with $1000 or maybe less if you have donations of materials.

Welding is by no means required. If you have the facilities you may decide that it is a good frame construction method, but in my experience the majority of teams use either nuts and bolts or rivets for the majority of their robot construction.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

You're allowed to spend $3500 on robot parts not on the KoP. Unlike BEST, the majority of your robot will be made up of parts not in the KoP (though the KoP makes a GREAT drive base).

I would see what you can do to quickly get a FIRST team to mentor you guys, it sounds like you have a lot to learn in very little time.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

I would recommend you come up with a business plan looking at sustainability over the next 3 years before you spend down all your funds.

There are some great team handbooks out there that you could look at. Some are posted here: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr....aspx?id=14036
358 & 1511 have terrific planning for example. I also recommend 234 continuity plan posted in the white papers on this forum. And I'm sure there are lots of other great examples.
Travel eats up a lot of budgets.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Welcome to FRC and to ChiefDelphi, Kdabr. (Your username is clever. :))

You are receiving (and will continue to receive) excellent advice here in this thread. Be sure to share it with your mentors and the rest of your team. Do look at the business plans in the links that Jenny Beatty provided for you - it will be worth the effort.

Because you have had 2 years in the BEST program, your team should have a pretty sound foundation in what it takes to be a team and develop a plan. I look forward to meeting you and your team this season.

One word of caution and one personal request:

- Be very careful when talking about other teams. The concern that you have mentioned is a valid one and IndySam shared great wisdom with how one team can help another team grow and develop in areas they are weak in. But be careful with the mention of teams' names in a negative light.

- Request: if you can, encourage other team members and other FRC teams in your area to register and post in ChiefDelphi. It would be nice to see more good ole Texas folk representing our regions here in CD.

Again, welcome! Please let me know if I can be of any help to you. Good luck, 3626!

Jane

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

What do you have in the shop? If you've got a drill press and a lathe and/or a manual mill, you probably don't need a CNC mill. Besides the cost of the mill, you also have to consider tooling, which eats up a lot of the budget pretty quickly. There's a couple threads about stocking a shop with $X, I think it's $10K and $1K, that I'd look at.

OTOH, if you don't have any form of mill/drill press/lathe, I'd get a reasonably nice manual mill and tooling. You can use a mill as a drill press, but using a drill press as a mill is not repeat not recommended. (Use of a drill press as a light lathe may be possible, but also not recommended. With a mill, you'd be more able to get away with that.)

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Excellent idea!

While you have the time, please try to create a business plan, showing most expenses, funds, and fundraiser profits. 103's business plan has been a work in progress for years because we never actually finish it. The second we update it, we buy something else. We have, however, won many entrepreneurship awards because of our constantly improving business plan.

I would say that the most important knowledge we have for the continuity of our team is within our business plan. It allows us to see how we are doing compared to previous years, make changes to the way we are doing things, and improve on our spending habits every year.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Keep in mind that you'll probably want a rather basic robot design for the first year. If you get into designs which require complex machining you may run out of time.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

No you don't have cash to burn.

Save it. You'll spend it sooner or later. If you really think you have a budget surplus, buy the team pizza. Or just save it for a Saturday during the build season. Also, if you want to take your robot to the next level and don't want to drop a couple thousand on a CNC (and that's before you factor the time and material it takes to set up and use), consider some of the aftermarket robot parts that are popular in first, like my personal favorite, AndyMark.

6500 isn't that much money especially in this competition, maybe consider going to a second regional? More competitions are great if you can afford the time and the money.

Overall if you got anything to take away from this, wait until kickoff, AND KEEP FUNDRAISING!!!

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

It may also be advisable to purchase a few extra jags/speed controllers, it's always good to have at least a few of these handy for backup purposes. Also keep a transportation budget in mind for attending the events.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

One thing that would be wise in this situation would be to document how the money is spent and why it is spent. If it (or any part of it) is saved as Conor suggests (and I agree with), document the reasons the team felt that was important and what the short term and long term plans are/would be for the monies. When sending a thank you for the generous donation(s), some of this info could be included, showing the donor(s) that they have made a good decision in supporting a team that uses wise judgment and good business sense.

Documentation in every area strengthens the team and can later be used for archival and historical research/reference purposes.

Jane

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

$6500 is not enough money to even consider purchasing machine tools.

I would purchase a small bandsaw, a small drill press, a small combo belt/disk sander a quality 1/2" chuck cordless drill (will be one of your most used tools. Don't skimp out on quality if you can afford it), and probably a cheap corded jigsaw and circular saw. Plus a full complement of screwdrivers, t-handle allen wrenches, l handle allen wrenches, straight allen wrench drivers, box/end wrenches, sockets/socket wrenches, pliers, vise grips, wire cutters/strippers/crimpers, drill bits, taps, etc. The list goes on and on. For a good start on the machinery the earlier referenced thread on the $1k/10k machine shop is a good resource.

You're going to want to purchase fasteners and other small parts that the kit inadequately supplies or doesn't include at all. You're going to need to build a crate. You're going to need to purchase t shirts, buy food/snacks for work sessions, potentially pay for a bus to/from events, etc. Maybe you qualify for championships at your regional and decide you want to go-there's $5,000 right there. There are literally endless ways that you will find to spend money down the road that are not easily seen in advance when thinking about what needs to be done to construct the robot.

In short, buy as many tools and supplies as you need to be able to build a robot competently and then save the rest for everything else that comes up sooner or later. Eventually if you still have a surplus you could start looking at adding machine tools such as a mill or lathe, but even then CNC is a big leap to take unless you really know what you're doing and are willing to put down a good chunk of money.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Do you have a website for your team? It's not a big expense, but if you don't already have a site you can start building one now. We found that using "free" space from our school board didn't work out that well as they were not willing to give us free reign to install the forum and hosting software we wanted, so we went with a commercial hosting service.

Many teams have flags or banners, and you might want to think about your pit area. You may already have a team uniform or team shirt (that recognizes your sponsors, of course!) but you can think about how you want to organize that if you don't. One of the cool things about FRC is the work that goes in to the "look" of the events, and there are no time contstraints on when you can purchase, design, or build the stuff that will mean that you can help contribute to making your regional (and sponsors) look great. It is also fun to have some inexpensive "give aways" such as buttons to help promote your team at events and community presentations.

I know I'm only talking about a hundred dollars here, and a hundred there... but it adds up... and none of it is "game dependent" so you can actually commit to a lot of these decisions now.

Jason

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

What she said !!!! Don't move...Don't breath....Don't do anything until you have a 3 year business plan

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Thanks for all of the advice, guys

While we do not necessarily predict financial issues year to year, we will definitely consider saving this money for incidentals rather than snazzy new CNC gadgetry. We already own a top-notch bandsaw, as well as a pretty decent drill press and micro-mill. We have a pretty nice little shop

Thanks to overzealous fundraising for BEST, we have quite a bit of cash saved up, although we certainly would rather keep it saved than blow it on nonsense.
The reason I created this thread was just to make sure that we weren't seriously lacking in anything (besides experience ;) ). The first year that we did BEST, our shop was little more than a closet in a section of the school that probably still had asbestos in it. We were seriously restricted by our lack of any real power tools besides a cordless drill. I just want to make sure that we are not grossly underequipped.

Thanks for convincing me and my team-mates not to go out and play "keeping up with the jones's"



Oh, also-

Regarding this whole business plan thing, how necessary is this if we already will most likely get our FRC entry fees paid for by JC Penney and if our school throws another 5k at us?

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

There is one other thing I didn't see listed is another rainyday fund.

Depending on how you do during the on-season events, you may Merit-Based qualify for the World Championships in St. Louis (ex. Rookie-All Star). If your team was to recive such an honhor and decied to go, you have alot of costs up ahead (registration, shipping, travel costs, etc.). If you have the extra cash after your budget, that something you might want to keep aside for (as a BS always Be Prepared!)

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

It's still necessary, if anything moreso because you have money coming in from multiple sources. Figure out an overall operating budget, figure out how much the school and JC Penny cover, and the remainder is what you need to fundraise.

It's very good for making longer term plans; what if JC Penney gives you less money next year? What if the school cuts your funding? Plan for that.

If you have any long term purchases to consider (mills, welding equipment, lathes) you can figure out how much you need to raise in order to afford the equipment in X years.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

I think the question to be asked is, do you want to make the most educated decisions possible to ensure the continued sustenance of your team? Do you want to recreate a business-like organisation out of your robotics team? Do you want to impress potential sponsors with your teams' professionalism?

Most teams don't do it, but in all honesty it really should be more common. There's no reason not to, except for laziness..

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

A business plan is much more than just a list of income and planned expenses.

A solid business plan will identify your team, your mission and your goals. It can describe how your team will operate and what an "organization chart" looks like.

It will describe rules / requirements for team membership, if you have a parent club.

And, it will include how you raise funds, how they are managed, what your expected expenses will be.

There are several good examples posted here on CD and on the FIRST website. Find some good examples and then modify what is there to fit your particular team.

Also, proceed with caution. There are many teams that assumed a major sponsor would "always be there". That isn't true for companies or for schools. Always assume one of those big supporters will go away, always plan on how you will survive if they do go away. Build a strong sponsor base and always hold some money back for "next year".

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Get to know AndyMark very well.
http://www.andymark.com/

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Thanks for all of the insight, FIRSTers!

Now that the whole organizational aspect of the business plan has been brought up, I think it could be a very good idea. Of course, we'd also include financial planning in there too. I'll see if I cant get some of my teammates help me put one together in the next few weeks!

Do you guys have any additional hints for a first year team? For me personally as a leader of a first year team?

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Mentors, get them if you can.

After Kickoff, read the entire Manual.

Design your robot based on your game strategy, not the other way around.

Keep your robot as simple as you can and always keep weight in mind.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Another robot tip: make it an inch undersize in all dimensions. You don't want a sizing box "oh $*@^" moment where you figure out that your welded frame is sticking outside the box a quarter of an inch with no easy way to fix it.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

I've seen that happen to rookies before. Fortunately it was a steel frame, so a grinder took care of it. But those bolt heads sticking outside the frame can really add up.

Here is my list of hints for rookies (and veterans who need the reminder):
--Read The Manual. Sections 1-5 (non-game-specific) are already available. The rest of the Manual (game-specific) will be released in a heavily encrypted form shortly before Kickoff; download and be ready when the password is released at the end of Kickoff. ::rtm:: Read Sections 6, 7, and 8 immediately; Sections 9 and 10 can wait a day or so. (Sections referenced: Arena, Game, Robot, Tournament, Kit of Parts, respectively, at least in the last few Manuals.)

--Before you begin building, strategize. What is going to win the game? What is the sacrifice to do X? Is there a way to avoid the sacrifice? No strategy is not a good plan.

--Manage your weight. This bites more teams than anything else (except not reading the Manual). In the past, you get 120 lbs without battery and bumpers. If you were 120.1 lb on weigh-in (next to sizing), then you had to find a way to lose that 0.1 lb. If you were 150 lb on weigh-in, you had to start removing functionality. I'd find a scale that can handle that kind of weight and fit the entire robot.

--The kit drivetrain is fairly solid. It's a great system to get running quickly, say in the first couple of days, so you can do some testing.

--Find a pre-ship event near you--and show up with your robot. Often, there will be an unofficial inspection. I'm going to emphasize the "unofficial" here--I inspected a robot last year that had passed that inspection at a pre-ship. The mentor gave the "But we passed at X event" reasoning. The Lead Robot Inspector sided with my no-pass ruling--they had to rework the non-compliant system a bit to pass. But on the other hand, those unofficial inspections can catch stuff like a rotated regulator, the team number not showing up on the display, and other stuff of that nature--and they'll help you fix it at the event, or let you know what you need to work on in the shop. The competitions are great for pre-strategizing and testing out the robot.

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Besides the other great tips listed:

- Make sure besided the robot, you get people working on some other stuff that needs to be done, (busniess, chairmains, a crate if your going to a Trad.)
- Rest up now! Buildseason will be hectic, and robotics will be your life during those weeks;)
- Of course have fun and enjoy the whole process.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Have an adult mentor (could be a parent) join NEMO.
http://www.firstnemo.org/index.htm

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Use the kit chassis and try and find a veteran team that's not going to uses theirs so you can have two. Get your drivers practicing ASAP! Only think about simple upgrades like wheels.

Buy extra batteries. Minimum of two more, four more will be better. You can never have enough batteries.

As stated by Eric: Have a weight budget. Start a spreadsheet, Buy a good scale and weigh every part and mechanism. Keep updating it as you go. Teams that follow that practice don't have to spend all Thursday at comp trying to make weight instead of practicing.

Six weeks go by fast, plan to have your first robot done in 4. That way if your are a week late you still have a week for break/fix, programming and practice.

Don't forget to have fun!

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2 years in BEST should help with this. The team knows the drill regarding the build deadline. Aspects of it, such as ship/bag and tag, will be new but the basic understanding should be there.

Aside: That's one good thing for any rookie FRC teams that have participated in BEST. It is a demanding competition in its own right and requires a lot of thought/strategic planning in how to play the game each year. FRC is a bigger robot and presents different challenges but teams who have participated in other robotic events already know that they enjoy problem solving and competing.
--
Kdabr - one thing that is very different is the mentor/student opportunity to build and compete together. BEST can encourage teams to think about being student centric and student driven. FRC offers the opportunity to understand that working along side skilled technical mentors and non-technical mentors makes a huge impact on the team both on and off the field and that it is a good thing. Take some time to talk with each other about those differences. The FIRST website can help with that and it provides valuable resources.

Also, keeping up with the Jones is not something you want to focus on as a rookie - you want to focus on: who is 3626, not who is 3626 compared to others. Determine your team's strengths and weaknesses and work on them. Build on the strengths and strengthen the weaknesses, realistically and with a common sense approach.

Jane

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Buy an extra cRio.

While you don't need to be able to weld, it will open up many doors to you. I am biased I admit, but I would definitely get a TIG welder.

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

... and do it before the end of the year:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=22

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Having run a BEST team, you do have a good start at team dynamics and project management, both equally as important to a good team as the proper tools and engineering skills. But also check out the rookie resources out there, such as MOEmentum (of course, I have to put that first) and Team in a Box.

http://moe365.org/moementum/moementum.php
http://www.team341.com/tiab/

Also look around at the FIRST web site, particularly this link for new teams:

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...t.aspx?id=5504

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

Second, that is what my rookie team is doing with some of the extra funds since we would like to have a practice robot and keep our first robot alive!

One recommendation is to always have a simple fall back plan in case your main, extravagant design is not working as expected or you know you won't finish in time. Something simple that will still play a portion of the game effectively and take minimal time to execute.

Getting your drivers behind the wheel sooner into the build season rather than later/practice day of your competition is a great idea.

Good luck 3626!

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

If you don't feel you can afford a cRIO and just want a test bed to drive some motors around (i.e. not programming after ship) you can use a Vex PIC with Victors. Saves you a few hundred dollars that way.

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How many Jaguars should we order?

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You should wait to order them until Build season, when you know how many you will need.

(in general, 4 for the drivetrain, several more for manipulators)

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Shouldn't we order a few before everyone accross america starts buying them like mad?

Also, Im interested in learning how to program with the camera included in the KOP. Is there some sort of FIRSTer friendly "quick start guide" or tutorial about
A. Using this camera with the cRIO
B. Generally interpreting the output of a camera

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

You will receive 4 Jaguars and 1 Victor 884 speed controller in your Kit of Parts which should be plenty for testing during the first weeks of build. In previous years Digikey has had ample stock of the controllers to satisfy the demands of FRC teams without significant delays.

The biggest reason to hold off on purchasing Jaguars is that each of the past two years, there has been a discounted price available for FRC teams.

I would agree with Chris's suggestion to wait until after kickoff. Get an idea of how many motors your robot will be using and figure out how many will be powered by speed controllers (some may be powered by Spike relays). I would recommend adding 2 to that number for spares in case one fails or if you decide to add a last minute mechanism.

EDIT: Speak of the devil. It looks like the FRC discount for Jaguars for this year has been posted:
http://ordering.digikey.com/promotio...mpetition.aspx

Re: We have cash to burn...or do we?
 

save the money you will need it to buy nuts bolts rivets drill bits etc. take it from team 2606 save your money

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Put it in the bank. That kind of money would be a dream come true for our team. Save it for next year's registration as you might not be as lucky, or maybe pay $4,000 to go to an extra regional this year?