Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Take neither of them seriously! Or both of them! Or assign one of them heads and the other tails, and flip a coin! It's not like it makes much of a difference... :rolleyes:

18 days...

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

They would if games were combined or interconnected in some way.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Grand conjunction = planets = spherical game pieces.

(Note: When it comes to figuring out hints, I'm 0/6.)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Guessing games I'm 2/3 but my brother is 1/1.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

My wife may be right because you folks certainly have a lot more imagination than I do.

It's all very straightforward. It is well known that the GDC uses people as stand-ins for robots when developing the game. We just need to consider Little Eva as a robot stand-in. What is she doing? Hanging onto a column. So we have a robot hanging onto a column.

Now let's go back to what we thought was a red herring from Dave back in November, a tennis ball. This new information makes it obvious.

My official game prediction:
The scoring object this year will be tennis balls. It could be the oversize tennis balls some mentioned in the red herring thread. On the field will be a four inch diameter pipe (column), probably eight to ten feet tall. Or maybe two pipes, one for each alliance. The GDC is good with these details. The top of the pipe will be covered with a spring loaded cover attached to a sleeve around the top 18 inches of the pipe. Scoring is accomplished by dropping the tennis balls down the pipe. But before you can do this a robot has to climb the pipe, grab the sleeve and put enough weight on the sleeve to open the cover.

I've been waiting for this game for years. This'll be awesome.

Greg

P.S. Humor has been attempted in this post. Sometimes my attempts at humor don't work so well.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Also, weren't the early 'bots small, like VEX?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I think this game is somehow based off that eclipse last night.. its a once in a lifetime thing that wont happen for another 500 years or more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunc...d_astrology%29

When they get even closer.. its called an appulse.. and even closer than that.. an occulation.. it has to do with eclipses though.. which of one we had last night.. maybe there really is a link?

think of a game like this.. stairs in the middle going to a platform with vase like structiures.. (it goes back to the roman-greek times of astronomy).. we start at the bottoms and have to go all the way to the otherside.. (up and down the stairs) to grab our pieces and put them on the vases in the correct order.. but the order is what makes it more complicated..

food for thought :yikes:

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I'm really skeptical of another space themed game. I think the reoccurring theme here is railroads/chains. Maybe the poll, but I think that's a red herring of sorts.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

never thought of that.. goes good with the 20th anniversary thing

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

A lot of teams did this in 2002. For the home zone scoring, you only needed to touch the zone, not be completely inside of it. Many teams had a small robot that drove off their robot, connected by the AC/control wires as a tether, and drove it back to their home zone in the last 15 or so seconds to score the bonus points.

/edit
This is in reference to the "mini-bot" discussion

Also of interest here, is that many of these small robots got run over by the larger robots, or crushed in between goals, or between a goal and the player station wall. A great example of this is team 329's 2002 robot at the SBPLI Long Island Regional. I may be able to dig up a video of this somewhere later on.
/edit

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

i need to research the old games more.. this is my 3rd year aha..

Offtopic: Rob, is Team Spyder coming to the Vegas regional again? You guys are awesome, incredibly impressed me last year.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I know I'm posting a little.. but for some more food for thought.. here's a list of all the historical events in 1991.. 20 years ago when FRC began.. any ideas? enjoy reading!

http://www.hisdates.com/years/1991-h...al-events.html ::rtm::

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

can we brainstorm what game pieces would go good with stairs?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Don't even get me started on the Woodie Flowers "Well even though it's against the rules, we'll allow it because they put so much effort into it" debate from 2002.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

well.. knowing the GDC always wants to make it as hard as possible.. it would likely be a ball.. they dont usually sit well on stairs :) boxes on the otherhand do work..

opinion depends on your level of optimism

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

That one is easy! Cubes! When pushed together and stacked correctly, they make the stairs! We have to make the stairs, climb up, and do something (perhaps drop a tennis ball down a vertical tube) to score.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

We need to think about what would be exciting for our audience (a group of non-nerds) to watch. Personally, I don't think watching robots build stairs is an exciting spectator sport.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

that one actually makes a ton of sense.. it even adds in the "jumping" part someone mentioned from locamotion.. this would probably make for bigger game alliances (the idea of a train having several cars) which follows what first has been trying to do which is to have more games in a regional.. my ADD mind is already thinking about how bonus points would be part of this one :)

edit/ I'm really flipflopping everytime someone makes ideas.. hmm.. /edit

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

However climbing and playing on an elevated field or something would be.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

If for some reason the mirror-image does play a role in the game...

What if the game were mirror-imaged? Autonomous mode last, AFTER the 2 minutes of teleoperation?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

That sounds actually very intruiging! Build the field in your favor to reach something.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

What if there was a sort of train car with an open top that you have to load a ball int?

could circle the field overdrive style but on train tracks outlining the field

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

My head hurts thinking about trying to program that one!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I doubt that climbing stairs would be the entire game. But keep in mind that one of Dean's inventions is the iBOT, a wheelchair that can climb stairs. There's no reason it couldn't be one aspect of the 20th anniversary game, just like it was one aspect of the 2004 game!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

having autonomous after would put in a need for the camera they tried to implement before.....

just saying it would add to the bring in aspects from every year 20th anniversary thing

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

For all those who have suggested loco-motion to mean something to do with trains, Amtrak started in May of 1971. That would mean that 2011 is Amtrak's 40 year anniversary

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

There is another picture of Little Eva with a column, so I don't think that the column itself is as important as Little Eva is:
http://katiehann.files.wordpress.com...ittle-eva2.jpg
Maybe it is a field element, but I don't want to speculate on that right now >.>

The image being flipped probably does have something to do with the game, though I don't know what. Maybe the two sides of the field are flipped versions of each other? I'm just saying this because they DID give us a pretty-much-straight-off-of-Google picture of the Opah two years ago, and they would be kind of ignorant to not expect us to figure out any picture (that wasn't generated by them) hint really quickly, no matter what state it's in.

What I find kind of interesting is that the picture covers a longer area than the one that is on the record cover. Look - in the image provided by FIRST, you can see from her right elbow down. I wonder where they got this picture from? I doubt it's important, but now I'm rather curious.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Yeah, I doubt that the image itself has much to do with the game, i feel like FIRST in the past more likes to do whats IN the image (Ie Moon fish...)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I notice that the column seems cut off right at about her height. Maybe part of the reason she's in the picture is to show that the poles are only about 5'6"? The pole also seems kind of reflective.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Maybe they are saying that we are going to show you more but we are going to be deceptive of the direction we are sending you. Also, another #5 reference, the record cover has 5 L's.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

So after reading through many of the posts in this thread, I came to a sort of muddy idea.

The hint seems to be pointing at "Locomotion" and possibly stairs. To me, this says rails, cargo and climbing. Others mentioned how it might be a mish-mash of some previous game components to create this one, so here's what I've got:

Stairs could mean anything really. It doesn't have to necessarily be exact stairs, it could be a series of steps that aren't exactly the same height from each other, and aren't even going in the same direction. This would be difficult to pull off in mass to create a field, but it's something to keep in mind when you think about stairs. Stairs have also been seen in other games, so it adds to the combination of things from the past theory.

Rails can be seen in the 1998 FRC game Ladder Logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladder_Logic). What if you have to climb up a staircase, or a column or anything really to put the game piece on a set of rails? Could be very interesting. The rails also tie directly back to the past year's game for transporting the game piece back onto the field. What if this year, it takes it off?

This brings me to the last part, I saw where people had mentioned "STAND by" and that made me think of Triple Play from 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Play_(FIRST)). I was a volunteer that year, and it was probably the scariest game to volunteer for in my opinion, especially if you were the "automated loader" person haha. But for this year's game, what if the human player for the teams was in the stand by box to catch the game piece? After they've got it, they probably have to do something more than just throw it back onto the field, but it's a thought.

Karibou -- I was looking through google images and came across the exact game hint picture (but reversed) when I did a search for Little Eva, so I imagine that the GDC grabbed it from there or another similar place.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

That was only on the tape measures, IIRC. A number of the mini-bots were built before that ruling, and built not to entangle. I know 330's had a scissors lift protecting the power cord--until that debate, when most of that lift came off.

Back to the matter at hand: I think the important parts are a) that the picture was reversed and b) who is in the picture. The other part is album name/song name, because there are easier ways to get the person.

The column doesn't factor in here, yet. (Until hint #2, that is.)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I hate to be a party-pooper, but couldn't it just be a hint at the name, probably locomotion. Didn't Bill mention something in a recent blog about finally figuring out a name for the game, and wasnt there a hint only for the name in the past(don't know the year but remember someone mentioning it)

Aside from that I can't see us having to build stairs because the first image that comes to mind is a robot on collapsing stairs landing on another robot.

With the chained-together idea, what if it means working together and its another 4v0 type game, or a single alliance

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Now this is gonna be my 5th year in FIRST but 1st as a mentor, but I dont really remember many game hints but whats the average time period between game hints being released?

Identified!!!
 

I have identified the woman as Eva Narcissus Boyd or "Little Eva".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Eva
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000024VI6

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Off-topic: THIS IS THE REASON WHY I LOVE FIRST!

Anyway, either way you spin it, it's looking like an interesting season for the drive train teams! Looks like team 662 will finally get rid of the tank drive this year!

What if the alliances had to retrieve small carts or train pieces from various levels of the field and put a train together? Certain colors were certain points? Just fueling the fire here people... Although it's quite the bonfire now :)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

What if the game is like snake, where the point is to attach all the game pieces in a large train and trail them behind you. Though that ignores many other clues.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Prior to 2003: zero hints.
2003-2007: 1 hint per season.
2008: 3 hints, 1st mailed to teams, 2nd a couple weeks later, 3rd a couple weeks after that.
2009: 2 hints, probably about 1-2 weeks apart.
2010: 2 hints, same timespan.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

We also have to keep in mind that the GDC has to create a game that everyone can play. That means rookies can play too, which probably means that "no wheels" is not an option (I saw that mentioned earlier in the thread).

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I think I may have to block chief delphi on my computer for the day.. so many thoughts are going to drive me bonkers :ahh: .. nvm. I give up.. I'll keep thinking!

18 days til kickoff guys!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I wouldn't rule out tank drive yet - we still don't know what the terrain is or how the robots have to interact for each other. Save that speculation for after kickoff!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

We've played without wheels in BEST before. It was a stationary robot. I liked some of the elements of the game but we were all happy to see wheels again.

And - I would never ever underestimate a rookie. Ever.

Jane

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I'll give you 2 perfect examples: 2056 and 3357

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

so if you do not use wheels you start with an additional 5 points

or every game piece you score counts for 2 points instead of 1

or an endgame bonus: Robots not supported by wheels, other robots or field elements get an additional 20 points.

The kit could be a simple walking design kind of like a hex bug

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Who? Me? :rolleyes:





.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Dave, don't you have an animation to be working on?

pandamonium, I don't think there was ever a bonus for using the RCX over the NXT.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Of course, you! Who else is so fiendishly evil to twist our poor little minds like you so love to do?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Ohhh boy here we go... Take it away Dave!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Yes, you! Dave stole the cookies from the cookie jar...or, rather, the KKs from the box sitting on the table.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

maybe we shouldn't blame Dave anymore. :) It seems to me that Bill has taken over as the new mastermind, dropping hints about stairs and the view at 3000ft. Other than a tennis ball Dave hasn't been too diabolical recently.

-I may regret saying this though-

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

How about his references to Paisley and Green?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Messengers can be very important. Bill Miller is directly connected to FRC - and can connect the official game hint (and perhaps drop hints with unofficial ones) all the while being the messenger via the blog. I wouldn't necessarily call that a mastermind. Those guys (the masterminds) are still dwelling in the GDC and they are alive and well. They all work together on this.

Jane

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Maybe we're looking at it too in-depth. Look at what last year's game hint turned out to be. Maybe the black-and-white photo here is hinting at something old-school or old-fashioned. This could mean a recreation of one of the original FRC games.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Hey Dave,

Send me that game animation and I'll proof it for ya' LOL:D :ahh:

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Although I really don't have any clues, I am thinking that smaller bots may be the way of the future, although maybe not this year. They can be cheaper, easier to transport, and miniturization is the way to go in the future.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

How small? VEX small? FTC small? BEST small? 2 difference size options small?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I'm with R2D2, I think it's just a hint for the game name.

Welcome to the 2011 FIRST Robotics competition and this year's game Locomotion!

I think "loco" (Crazy) being the important part, They don't usually select game names that don't tie in some how. So I see lots of movement around the field not unlike 2008, also the lyrics 'Jump Up, Jump Back' are intriguing.

What if "Jump up" didn't mean jump forward as much as it did "Up"? ;)

Other ramblings while thinking this over...
- A column could also be called a pillar, 7 Pillars of wisdom..
- In space travel an EVA is an Extra Vehicular Activity

But yeah, I think there's a good chance it's the name of the game.

2011 is almost here!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I like the VEX or two different size options small. How big were the first year's bots?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I too am getting the planetary vibe.
With last night's rare combination of lunar eclipse and winter solstice, we may be on to something but as someone else said, another space-themed game doesn't seem likely. I'm personally leaning more to the conjunction of previous games idea.

What about Dave's hint about paisley? /retro/old game elements/history.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Little Eva -> The Loco-motion -> Loco-motion

Perhaps there will be bins around the field that we constantly have to be moving pieces around in?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

locomotion came out in 1962 ... paisley shirts... connection

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Ok so dave comes in to Stir things up. Did everyone see the sign he is standing next to?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Boxcar Willie Memorial Overpass

Clue #2 (maybe)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

If there are going to be smaller robots on the field, then I think it'd be fair to say they'd be dropped off in a special section so they're not run over by the bigger bots.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

He's had that as his WAI picture for years. Nothing there that is hint-worthy.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

yes dave.. you.. though.. as someone pointed out.. bill has been a little ahead of you this year.. get back into the game

I do mean that as a double meaning.. tricking us.. and working on that game animation :rolleyes:

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

You maybe right about the smaller robots. maybe the FIRST Choice selection was a hint also. Option 1 was for the FTC Mini Kit.

Makes sense.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

http://www.last.fm/music/Little+Eva/+images/6550963

this is the image FIRST used

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

There was a bonus for using the RCX over the NXT in 2006-2008. (not sure about the end date, but I know there was one in 2006 and 07) This bonus was based on score (i.e. If they scored 100 pts, they get 5 more, 200pts, 10 more, etc.)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Did he mean the band named the "Who"?
Did little Eva write something for the Who?
Does "Me" refer to Mecanical Engineer? Do we know any engineers who were in a musical group?
Did Little Eva Sing "Yellow Submarine", which means a water game.
I could go on.....

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Hmm.. In another FWIW thought, EVA is NASA speak for Extra-Vehicular Activity (i.e., something outside the mother ship). So, the game's name is Loco-Motion and we're expected to do a little EVA to make it happen?

Mike

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

okay so eva is extravehicular activity and how do they simulate that on earth...
WATER GAME

but on a serious note can anyone find a connection to 4 as I remember there was a lot of connections to 4 with the red herring tennis ball

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Excuse me if I am wrong but there are also five buttons on her shirt and 5 enter spaces in Dave's post. Hmmm

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Hmm... Pushing tennis balls in a train outside of the robot's perimeter over steps (or into water ;-)? Geez, this is getting pretty thin on two measly pictures...

Mike

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Nice picture... 18 more days! :)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

So they did have to reverse it! That lends credibility to the "it's mirrored for a reason" theories floating around.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

You've got it all wrong, guys.... It's obviously a Minecraft game, in celebration of the beta.

The "4" hints at the rectangular nature of the terrain and world in general

The "Locomotion" hints at minecarts... maybe some sort of mining game? Mine then carry the ore away?

The column is like a mineshaft you dig straight down.

Maybe the title is "FRCraft"

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Ah I love this time of the year. It's finally hint time :).

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Just throwing some stuff out there:

1. Today is the Winter Solstice...perhaps they specifically picked today to release the game for a reason...

2. Reversing the image also seems intentional....perhaps goals can reverse/change sides without notice?

3. Locomotion: rough terrain....railroad tracks across the field to go over?

4. Eva...Wall-E...space...lots of environmental friendly stuff going on in FIRST right now....Green game somehow?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

well after having read the 12 pages finally, there is one thing that comes to my mind that doesn't seem to have been mentioned:
MOVING GAME PIECES!
maybe we have stationary robots, like someone said earlier, and somehow we have to grab the game pieces which are moving around.
or maybe our robots aren't stationary, but there are still moving game pieces
has it been done before? this is my 2nd year, so i wouldn't know...

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

The ribbing in Little Eva's sweater mimics the column.

Bumpy? That would be hard on the robot.

Edit: you use circular knitting needles to knit a ribbed pattern. The column is circular. Circular tracks. Pushing, linking, collecting?

There's also a sense of doom if we don't wise up. Maybe green stuff there. Pollution, misuse of natural resources, not working together to problem solve/arrive to solutions - Maybe the alliances will work together differently in the competition. You know - that coopertition thing. I can definitely see that as a larger message as part of the 20th year recognition and inspiration aspect of the celebration. In other words, dig a little deeper than an empty celebration. You may find a green herring. *wanders off to find her coffee....*

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Well in 2009 the goals were attached to the robots...

I'm going to stick with my theory that to celebrate FIRST's 20th anniversary, this game is going to incorporate elements from previous years.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Bumpy terrain would be excellent. Building robust robots is something lots of teams need to work on. LOL

Perhaps combine the ideas of locomotion and stationary robots. Maybe the robots will be put on to "train tracks" and move around a predetermined course while having to collect game pieces.

I also like the idea of combining previous game elements for the 20th anniversary.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I guess I am trying to reverse engineer the clue. Would someone want to use the word "Eva" and then find her picture? I don't think so there are tons of 'Eva's out there if you just google the word. Or if they wanted to show columms would that be a pic easily found to display?

It seems to me working backwards if the name of the game has to do with "Loco Motion" then the song is an obvious choice for the clue and then the pic makes sense.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

How about "E.V.A." Extra Vehicular Activity?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I completely understand that E.V.A. makes sense for a game. What I mean is if you wanted to have a clue about E.V.A. would the singer of "The locomotion' come to mind? Could you even google EVA and come up with her name?

Im certainly not saying I am right nor would I even bet that I am right. Just my line of reasoning. I could see myself thinking about how to give a clue about "Locomotion" and coming up with her picture

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

With the hint of loco-motion it does seem that trains would be some part of it. Dave lavery's picture involves him standing next to a sign that says "boxcar". I wouldn't count that picture out as another clue for it being a train like game. EVA could be a reference to a small robot or vehicle you have to collect and add to your train. It could also be a reference to lunacy with the trailers. Maybe everyone has to have slick wheels again? Human players were known as payload specialists and there where other human players in corner fueling stations. Both terms can apply to trains. Slick wheels, trailers, bump in the middle. Maybe its a race like overdrive and it ends in lifting your robot and train up off the ground. Have I used enough games from the past? :ahh:

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Alright so coming into this late in the game, (I'm not going through 10 pages off stuff) my initial reactions

Who is that???
Does she personally have anything to do with robotics?
I think the Pillar might have something to do with it.....

If someone who been following the thread wants to do me a favor and give ne a summarization of whats going on it would be.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

That's where my money is. And the fact that the image is reversed from the original image - a recreation of an original FRC game (or multiple games) that have been "twisted" in some way. Would also fit with what most competitions do with "anniversary" type games.

-Danny

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

You should skim most of it. There is a lot their worth reading

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

To sum it up... We know nothing.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Little Eva. Sang "Locomotion". Born in 1943. Died in 2003.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

I thought someone said FIRST was gonna wait for the 25th anniversary to reuse games and twist them? I dunno if someone can back me up or knows where this originated from

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Dave has had that picture about as long as I've been on this forum. If you look at my join date, you'll see that that means there is not a hint there.

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Do not underestimate Bill's deviousness. There is no reason to expect that the picture was chosen for only one dimension. The fact that it is old, AND has a column, AND has Little Eva on it AND that there are five buttons and is the cover for Loco-Motion must all be considered. He could have chosen it for any or all of the above. (Although the five button thing seems to me to be streching it a little far.)

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Still Skimming, but after breezing through and texting with teammates things I have so far....

I seem to keep feeling that this might have to do with Transportation(themed game). Now I know theres a lot left out to be discussed, and other theories. Thinking about some of Bill's pass blog posts, I could see this working.

One thing I haven't seen discussed to much, did anyone try to make a relation between the hint and the Red Herring Dave gave us a few weeks back?

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

Yeah I know but I have to start someone and make some assumptions :rolleyes:

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

everyone is missing the obvious.....







Steam powered robots!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

If the Lord High Vacuum of Time and Common Sense ever changes his picture, then it might be a red herring. Otherwise, that picture is as old as the hills!

EDIT: Uh, Dave. Don't change it on my account!

Re: 2011 Game Hint #1
 

This is like when I play chess. I think 10 moves in advance, when really, three would be sufficient.

I like the EVA theory.