The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Hi all,

As we begin to repeat ourselves in the 1st Official Game Hint thread for 2011, I thought it might be interesting for archival purposes and as a reference - to discuss the differences between the unofficial hints/clues and the Official Game Hints.

Would anyone like to give this one a try? First of all, when did we start receiving Official Game Hints directly from FRC? How far back do the official ones go and what were they? Before that, the hints/clues were unofficial and Dave Lavery was behind most of them, right? We also have had some FIRSTers/CD members who created their own hints/hoaxes/chaos, right? What were those and who were the pranksters?

This might be information that will help new members who try to make sense of the excitement and anticipation leading up to Kick off. It will also give us something to do.

I've enjoyed the hints as far back as I go which is not far enough and I sure don't know the history behind any of it.

Thanks for any input and help.

Jane

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Official hints began for the 2003 season, Stack Attack, IIRC.

2003: the quadratic formula, used as the scoring formula. (not quite sure if that was official or unofficial via Dave's signature)
2004: Lines from the song, "Stairway to Heaven". (Same note as 2003)
2005: Riddle.
2006: Riddle.
2007: Picture of a scored game piece--up close, so only the inside edge of the game piece and the diamond-plate circle with the number 5 on it showed.
2008: 3 hints: IR receiver board, GPS coordinates of the Tortoise and Hare statue in Boston, and "Vets Hurdling First Tetras", which was an anagram of the password to the manual, minus punctuation.
2009: First a picture of an opah, or moonfish, then a riddle.
2010: 2 CAD models of field parts
2011: See hint thread; reversed album cover.

Fakes: Various rumors that turned out not to be true, but there is one classic one that was fairly close in some aspects: A leak was claimed before the 2001 game.
Greg Needel's hoaxes were the sort of "it's out! Ha, ha, fooled you"; 2009/2010.

Lavery red herrings: Numerous. Random sayings, faked pictures, comments about whack the Billfred being the game, you name it. Epic red herring was the morse-code signature spacing for the 2010 season. And yes, some herrings are red when Dave posts them. Typically 3-4 or more per season.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

The real question is has anybody ever learned anything actionable from a game hint or red herring.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

In my experience, no.

I always advise teams I'm associated with to ignore them and have a safe and restful holiday season. However, I also include the link to those hints and discussions in the same email because the sadistic side of my loves the fact that some people just can't help themselves. I get a kick out of seeing the self-torture despite having my best advice right in front of them.

Wrong to do, I know. But exceedingly amusing for me.

Enjoy the holiday herring, no matter what part of the RGB spectrum you observe this time of year. :)

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

There is one thing that occurred to me this morning... With such a huge history of "unofficial" hints and clues, and the amount of attention everyone here pays to Dave's posts and Bill's blog, it would be incredibly easy for them to drop something innocuous in their posts that would completely twist the way people look at the official game clues. For example, I've heard a lot of speculation around stairs after the official clue, linking the fact that the backup singers were standing on stairs to various statements/pictures made over the past few months. That could be a complete red herring, designed to keep us from figuring out what the clue really means.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

No.

Their just for fun. At best they give the game name or some part of the field that really tells you nothing about the game.

I love every year watching people try to figure out the game from them. The wild speculation is amazing and never correct.

I miss the riddles, they were always the most fun.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Oh bah humbug, guys. It is a terrible thing to enjoy silliness, cleverness, and fun. Especially during the holidays. That's why I never ever think about, quote, or watch any Monty Python movies after the 21st.

Seriously.

Jane

P.S. Thanks, Eric. If anyone has any specifics to add, that would be awesome.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

But it's not got much Spam in it...




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Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I think the closest to do this was Madison K in 2006 who figured out the Shovel's Show part of the clue (David Spade - Just Shoot Me) and inferred a game dealing with projectiles.

I recall that Dave explicitly mentioned this during the kickoff.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

That, sir, is a sketch. Not a movie.
Thus, the intended irony has gone awry.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

That, sir, is the meaning of life.

Going awry.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I always thought songs from Steely Dan should have more irony in them. In FRC 'bots, we find mostly aluminy along with the going awry parts.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Actually, in 2002 FIRST gave us the BOM for the raw materials to build the goal in advance of the 2002 game. They did not say it was a goal, but we figured out what it was from the purchasing list. We did not build it of course and had no idea what would go in these goals. But it sure was fun thinking about what it could be.

So in the end, even that giant hint did not really help prior to receiving the full game. It was just fun.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Possibly....

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=79

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

The field BOM definitely continued after that as well. I know I've looked over a few, and my first year was 2004. I want to say the last one was in 2007 because I remember there being a carriage bolt on the list, and I know we used those to attach the plates to the end of the spiders. :)

(We were never smart enough to figure out what we were supposed to build though.)

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

a few people figured out the game was soccer from one of the hints last year, many people figured out moon-fish, also some people figured out the tubes in 07. Based on the 07 speculation I even saw some hypothetical robot designs thrown around before the game was even released!

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I believe this one was revealed by Woodie, a few days before Kickoff. FIRST posted some kind of news post about the upcoming kickoff, and it had a quote from Woodie in it, where he mentioned the Quadratic formula.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

And that is why I long for riddles again. They actually have solutions unlike the picture clues we've received lately. They are really hard riddles, but there is more substance to discuss rather then the randomness we get from pictures. I'm not saying there wasn't randomness from riddles(it was still FIRST) but at least we came somewhat close on the riddles even if we didn't know who got close.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Official hints began for the 2003 season, Stack Attack, IIRC.


AHHH.. Stack Attack was my favorite game ever.
I used to get excited to see the clues and trying to figure them out. The kids always bugging me if it had come out yet. Now.. it is fun no doubt but I find the over analizing it to death crazy. I enjoy reading for a couple hours for the amuzement but after that I tend to forget all about it.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Ahem. "Parrot Sketch Not Included"

(and before you go running off to gather the Spanish Inquisition with charges of falsehood and heresy, please note that IMDB.com and several other resources [including the VHS tape box that I am looking at right now] identify this piece as a "compilation movie" of MPFC work). Say no more.


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Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

[quote=dlavery;987729]Ahem. "Parrot Sketch Not Included"

(...a "compilation movie" of MPFS work)./QUOTE]

Monty Python's Flying Saywhatnow?

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Monty Python's Flying SERCOS? [/machine control humor]

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

The best prank that I ever saw, I think was before 2000. Dr. Joe Johnson of Chief Delphi made a post in the Rumor Mill in which he stated that he had received an e-mail that was intended to go to FIRST but instead ended up going to him. He then went on to show the contents of the letter in which it explained the game in pretty heavy detail. The amazing thing is that there was such chaos/outrage over the post, that tons of people were calling up FIRST HQ complaining. From what I heard, they had no idea it was coming, and Dr. Joe had to eventually go on the boards to apologize and explain to everyone that it was just a hoax to try to get people thinking. Its actually very possible that this was the very first hoax in FIRST history.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Andy,
Didn't you make some excellent guesses in past games?

I'm thinking of Lunacy, maybe? Nope, now I'm thinking Overdrive...

Jane

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Hmmm an extra picture on Dave's post? And what do you know its a train. Wasn't there yesterday when the discussion of the sign came about.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Arizona,
That's for the game hint thread.

But hey ... while you are here - can you explain the difference between an official hint and a red herring clue?

It seems that no one is able to explain that to me.

Jane

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I've seen two Dave posts that were clearly hidden hints.

One dated from 2004 tells people to work on their autonomy and the "vision / encoder / something pyramid" along with various other tetra references in post.

One post in 2006 was a reply to a post praising FVC for having a ball bigger than the robot, where he implied that something of that nature would come to FRC eventually... (2008)

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I've definitely made guesses, but I'm not sure I was ever accurate. I did once hoax that I saw a Slinky truck making a delivery to FIRST...people decided to not pay any attention to the slinky part (my intention) and actually started steering towards the fact that it was made by Poof, thus sparking conversation about it possibly being Poof footballs or basketballs. Oddly enough, a couple of years later we would find ourselves scouring Wal-Mart for the ever elusive Poof Basketball.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I'm going to go look around a bit. It was around the time of the tortoise and the hare but I seem to want to remember something else, too.

Oh! I didn't get very far before I found a really cool thread. Check it out. Dave posted his links to his animations in it and it has some of the hints - hahaha!

Yah - no, this isn't it.

Ah man! This was the best thread ever! And, if you read it, you will see that a few folks nailed some stuff about the game, Overdrive.

This isn't it either but it is just.so.cool! I remember thinking that it was amazing and would love to see it. And lookey - train tracks, haha!

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

In my opinion Jane,

A official game hint has a lot of thought put into it. It has to relate to the game, designed (on it's own) to now make you get away from the actual game, but still make you think. Plus it has most of the GDC involved

Red Herrings: They could be anywhere from outright obvious, to not at all close to the game. These are made to screw with us, and get us in the wrong direction. For example, the whole multi level train track theory wouldn't exist without the herrings, and tennis balls wouldn't be even though of without these.

Both though do an excellent job at getting our brains thinking and trying to solve them, which is what the GDC wants us doing. They are designed to help us. They may not give us an early hint at what the game is, but they help us prepare our minds for the busy season up-ahead that is full of nothing but thinking.

If you need me to clarify any thing let me know.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

This is awesome.

Just one question, does that make red herring clues - official? (This is all getting Twilight Zone-ish, I realize.)

Thank you,
Jane

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Once again in my opinion,

Thats a pretty tough question. As clues themself, I wouldn't consider them offical, as the relation they have to the game could be right out obvius, or the tiniest relation at all (Just like those who somehow got a water game from 2011 Hint 1:rolleyes: ). However I still consider them Official from FIRST, as I'm sure Dave, and Bill, the rest of the GDC want these planted to help stir us up a bit and to get us to think.

I hope it makes sense, but getting my thoughts into writing isn't my strongest point.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

A bit off topic but..

I have a horrible feeling if I ever met Dave in real life, I'd think every word he'd say is a clue to next years game.

Continue on!

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I know this is old, but I want Aham on awry, with amustard please.:D
I've met Dave a few times. Every word he said to or near me was indeed a game hint.

Jane, the problem with herrings (of any color) and official game hints is that even if someone guessed the exact game perfectly...who would know?

The bottom line is we all* still have to wait for Kickoff.


*GDC members and possibly some insiders excepted.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Just don't ask him about apples and oranges.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I consider clues "official" if they're posted on the FIRST website, or if Bill EXPLICITLY says "this is a hint" in his blog.

However, I do expect something truthful to come out of some of Dave's posts. There's no way of knowing when he's right, but it will happen eventually. We'll just all go "D'OH" after kickoff. Same goes with the red herrings that everyone seems to think that Bill is dropping in his blog.

Also, two boxes of KKs and a 2-year subscription to CD says that Dave changed his avatar just to satisfy the game hint thread. :rolleyes:


Yes and no, in my opinion. The 2008 anagram, vet hurdling FIRST tetra, when solved, read "drive straight turn left" -- exactly what we had to do for the game. Of course, nobody figured it out until AFTER kickoff, but, had we solved it before, we would have known exactly what half of the game involved.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I prefer to use the whole training bloodhounds story of how we came to use the phrase "red herring".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

According to it, the hounds were trained how to follow a scent by following a red herring. After they could do that, they learned how to follow a real foxes scent. After that they were trained to follow a real fox scent while ignoring the scent of the red herring.

I think that is what FIRST intends to do with us. It is important to be able to gather information and decide whether it is leading you to your goal or away from it. Even following the red herring can teach different ways of thinking. However, the goal is to be able to tell the difference. I'm sure that I might be putting more faith in FIRST having a purpose then I probably should. Perhaps they don't have a purpose. Either way, just because its a red herring doesn't mean it is unofficial. And just because its unofficial, doesn't mean its a red herring. Sometimes the GDC is trying to mislead the public. Other times someone(dlavery) might actually be giving out information in an unofficial capacity.

Hope that clears things up a bit,
Jason

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

You are doing pretty well!

If you ever wonder why JaneYoung asks questions or makes posts or creates threads - all you have to do is think about that statement. It applies to all of us. Writing down our thoughts, opinions, suggestions, wisdom, and/or knowledge - and conveying them in a manner that can be informative, efficient, humorous, gracious, and/or insightful - is good stuff.

If you think this thread is bad, you should have seen me ask our Spirit lead to get all of his thoughts in his head out on the whiteboard for the BEST competition. He did an amazing job but I think he was ready to throw things at me by the time he finished. Hey, he had it all in his head. :)

Thank you!
Jane

P.S. I need a bloodhound to help me track down the old clue that I'm looking for...

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Its actually kinda funny to look through some of those posts. In particular, this one where I am kicking the Overdrive Turtle. About half way down the responses, Mr. Lavery pipes in and says that I shouldn't hurt my foot, I would need it in the future. The very next post vivek16 states 2009: Soccer Showdown?

In hindsight, that is pretty funny considering Breakaway. I believe they said once that Breakaway was originally supposed to be the 2009 game too. Good stuff!

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Yup.

And in the current thread, I think there is chatter about footballs or rugby. I'll have to check - I may be hallucinating over too many game hint threads and too many years. Some folks call the ball in rugby, a football, right? Wouldn't it be awesome if someday you got to see a football as an FRC game piece? Yup, it would be.

Psst, Andy - did you notice the Yah - no? That was me imitating you with your, 'ya know...' and then letting us have it. Bahahaha!

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Yes sir, Mr. Lavery sir. No more saying, sir.
(No offense, but I think imdb has their Monty Python's Flying Sircus a bit off...)
(Also, I like the train avatar. Classy.)
(I love typing :) )

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Footballs have come up often in the hint threads over the years as it's one of the only major sports balls that hasn't been incorporated into an FRC game yet.

As for other hint thread guesses, I recall the 2005 hint thread nailing the game name Triple Play and the importance of three in that game. The advance BOM released before games used to be good source of guessing as well. Once (probably four or five years ago), I remember IFI updating their website the night before the Kickoff and coming across screenshots of Kitbot parts.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Don't even get me started on this one...

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Game hints- the GDC being evil about giving hints about the coming game

Red Herrings [or whatever shade or pattern you choose]- anyone non GDC being evil about the coming game

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

What about baseballs? Basketballs? Golf balls? Bowling balls? Cricket balls? Croquet balls? Billiard balls? Volleyballs?

Lots of sports have balls. There are many that have not been used yet.

Hmmmm. We may have to remember this list for the 2014 game....

-dave



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Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

WATER GAME


I'd like to see tennis balls as this years..

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Javelins, armadillos, and rhubarb pie haven't been used as game pieces yet, either. Just sayin'. [/irreverent]

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Neither have frisbees, boomerangs, or Jell-o...

I think that the reason that footballs come up often is because of their different shape. Everything else that Dave just listed off is spherical, and footballs are not.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

I'm rooting for something square. When was the last time we had something with sides?

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

This is pretty much a definitive red herring. It presents some plausible information, yet does so obscurely so we can't tell whether it is valid information about the game or not. We won't know until kickoff whether the information applies or not.

As opposed to an official clue, which presents some valid information about the game, but in an obscure fashion so that we can't discern anything definitive about the game. We might decode the clue, but we won't know until kickoff.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Right, so when new members of new teams join CD and wonder about this, as happened in the Game Hint thread, we can provide this as an example and say it all connects?

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Just wondering, why 2014 Dave? :rolleyes:

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

2012 and 2013 were designed before Championships came around. Thought everyone knew that.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Dave's locomotive is am image from lastfm.de's video of CCR's song "The Midnight Special". To me this means I'll often be up until midnight in the near future, and whatever it is, it's "special".

How does he DO that, predicting the future and all?

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

The 2003 tote game pieces.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Dave doesn't predict the future. He creates it.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

You forgot hockey pucks...

Other than footballs, I don't care what they have for a game piece. I just want there to be something on the side of the field for me to lean on in between matches. My feet hurt from those long days.

Maybe we can convince the GDC to incorporate La-Z-Boy chairs into the playing field. That would be awesome.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

water polo ball

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

That was the game where I learned a very powerful lesson in Gracious Professionalism and what it was and what it meant. After I learned the lesson, I wanted to learn more about Gracious Professionalism and about Dr. Woodie Flowers. It's been an amazing journey, starting with that one lesson.

Jane

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Nope, they weren't forgotten, just intentionally excluded from the answer. The preceding question was specifically about sports with balls. Hockey pucks, no matter how intriguing as a game piece, did not fit the original criteria.

In the mean time, the idea of La-Z-Boy chairs as part of the play field is very intriguing. I am sure such an idea will require a long and very arduous test phase to determine exactly which model of chair is most appropriate as both a field element and referee station. As part of this test phase, I would expect to see Aidan sleeping on the job for most of the upcoming season. :)

-dave



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Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Hey, Dave, make Aidan sit on an Outpost seat from Lunacy to sleep. Might work better than a La-Z-Boy, plus saves the cost of one chair for the GDC...

*ducks mob of angry outpost-based human players*

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Don Rickles is on the GDC?
Two words: Business Hammocks.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Those are actually quite comfy. I have one. An official one. Human players in the outpost in 2009 didn't have it too bad - they got to sit the entire match, AND the chair was somewhat comfortable!
However, a La-Z-Boy has cushioning. And a footrest. Maybe if the game involved throwing the cushions around...

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

That game gave you a box to think out of didn't it :)

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

Indeed. It is a game that has kept on giving.

Re: The Difference Between Red Herring Clues And Official Game Hints
 

This is called 'Self Fullfilling Prophecy.' It does become easier to predict the future when you have some input into the form it will take.