A Corrupt FIRST?
 

This in now way reflect on my team. These are my opinions and mine alone.
I have begun to notice some corruption in the FIRST organization.

First off in FTC the rules support one company, Lego, more specifically TETRIX. The rules limit what you can use to mainly TETRIX products , no lookalikes, teams are only aloud certain amounts of things like square tubing or other metal unless it is made and bought from TETRIX.

Second in FRC, I can only speculate where our outrageous fee of $5000 goes. Dose first release this information? Its not the kit, there is little of value in there. Its not the places the events take place, those are schools or sponsors of FIRST. Where dose this money, that to frequently destroys teams, go?

Any thoughts? Please no negative comments or unsupported "Facts".

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Isn't your entire post an unsupported "fact"?

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Quick suggestion: Before making unsubstantiated claims and wondering where the registration fee goes, look at http://usfirst.org/aboutus/content.aspx?id=78 for annual reports going back to 2003. You will notice that the first item is an audited financial report.


And as for claiming the KOP has little of value: Motors aren't exactly cheap. The Kitbot isn't exactly cheap. The software in the KOP is NOT cheap, especially in non-student versions. With the prices of copper these days, the wire isn't exactly cheap. I'm not sure I want to know how much the batteries cost.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I dont think so. The part about FTC is clearly written in the rules. The second part about FRC is more a question.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

For what it's worth, the FTC competition has always restricted parts to one vendor, even before Tetrix was involved. The intent of this is that the parts are supposed to be relatively inexpensive and standardized, so all teams have an even and accessible playing field. This is the primary draw of FTC and similar competitions - machining resources aren't needed and the only constraint relative to other teams is your critical thinking skills.

So FTC forces a monopoly by design. It definitely is a valid way to execute the above goal - in my experience with the program (granted, back in 2008) it worked pretty well!

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Actually, before looking up any information regarding FIRST's use of the funds and material support that they may receive, your time would probably be even better spent looking up the formal definitions of "libel." Because if you are going to make inflammatory unsubstantiated charges of corruption and implicit accusations of criminal activity, you are going to find yourself on the wrong end of discussions with some lawyers on that topic pretty quickly.

-dave



.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

It's in the rules. Why not use that same argument about FLL? After all, their rules are much more restrictive: Thou shalt only use LEGO parts, nothing more, nothing less (with minimal marking/string exceptions). Clearly, that's a sign of a corrupt partnership existing to make money.*


Or maybe it's that way so that everyone has an even playing field, and teams with $20K and a 3-D printer and/or a CNC can't build special adapters to attach stuff that teams with the entry fee and kit money can only dream about.



*Not my actual opinion, in case you were wondering. I much prefer the other alternative I presented.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Your claim of the KoP being "cheap" financially has already been discussed, but what the important thing about the KoP is that each piece of equipment we pull out of their is used in the real world. The knowledge gained from using these items at all (which would most likely not even be available to you if it weren't for FIRST) is nothing close to cheap, it's priceless.

EDIT:
Example, over the summer I interned at the University of Miami using LabView and the skills I gained from FRC programming to analyze blood vessels as they contract and expand.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

While I in no way want to give credence to the idea that FRC is subject to financial mismanagment, it is worth noting that the financial reports get no more specific than showing several million dollars poured into FRC. My point is not that they should or shouldn't be more specific than that, but that the average student wouldn't learn anything of value by looking at those resources.

It's worth noting that at least some amount of the Kit of Parts is donated. The KoP has an estimated value greater than its price tag, however.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I was afraid of this...

I feel FLL is not a major "issue" because of the age group and the small cost lego parts are.

I think "leveling the playing filed" is more of and excuse for first then a legitimate reason to allow mainly only tetrix. And it is definitely not cheaper to buy tetrix the to make your own parts and limits the creative process.

The corruption was a question not an accusation. And I am not a lawyer nor do I care much what one would think.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

It's that estimated value that I was getting at. If you were to buy the KOP off the shelf, it's worth a lot of money. Are parts donated? Sure. This keeps cost down. But some parts need to be bought (or are bought at a discounted price), and for 1800 kits, that's a lot of money even for one or two items.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

The only thing I find a little odd is how when dealing with FIRST in Michigan $5,000 registers my team for a KOP and 2 Michigan District events. However when dealing with FIRST $5,000 only covers a State Championship.

I've heard from the powers-at-be that the astronomical cost had something to do with Unions - something along the lines that all the audio/video people were from one union that signed a contract with FIRST.

I agree though, transparency is always a good thing - especially with non-profits.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I think what OP is asking for is for someone to disprove what appears to be the situation from his experience. Instead of instantly denouncing everything OP has observed why not instead show OP where he has gone wrong. Showing someone where they have gone wrong is much more useful than accusing them of making outlandish accusations.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Heres another question. Why do we have to buy the kit? How many veteran teams use a majority of whats in the kit. I know we didn't.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Ya and to go to that Michigan state champion ship you have to pay another $4000, and then first national competiton another $5000. Thats over $14,000 when you include the cost of the robot and gas. food, and hotels. A lot to ask a team to fundraise.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

The posts' title and accusations in the original post is over the edge, but I still think this post can be turned around in to fruitful discussion.

Glancing through (read: scan through, not a in-depth reading) the audited report, it feels just like a tax return form. Just a lot of numbers and a lot of room for things to "hide" under.

For instance the operating cost of FRC in 2009 was $25,259,844. The revenue from "Program Registration Fees" was $15,535,666. "Contributions and Grants" were $15,900,906. The surplus at the bottom of that table was $506,264, which is a WHOLE lot less than 2010's figure.

Those seem like valid numbers, and then I read on page 8 "Unrestricted Contributions recorded as program expenses" which for FRC in 2010 was nearing $4 million. That could be anything. Lobbying, bribing, corrupting. :ahh: (sarcasm, please)

I'm not on the same boat as the original poster as to say that the way FIRST uses money is in any way sketchy, but I think we could allow for some imagination and "creativity" (non-slander and non-libel!) and use it as an opportunity for discussion. FIRST does handle a lot of money.

I know that they have tried to help the teams out every year, by lowering the registration fees by a $1000 for example from the past. I don't really think FIRST is in any way corrupt. I also have no basis of reason to believe or even imagine so.

But this discussion is interesting! Like those price breakdowns lists of iPods/Wiis/etc they have online, maybe we could go through the KOP and price how much FIRST pays/(gets donations) for them and investigate?

Whatever it is, I guess the most important thing is to keep it all straight in facts and keept it free of libel.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

It is possible to ask a question in such a way that it is an accusation rather than a question. This can be done in a number of ways, including language that can easily make the blood boil (i.e., "outrageous").

As for not caring much what a lawyer would think, let's assume for a moment that FIRST saw this thread. Let's also assume that they took it as an accusation, more specifically, a false and damaging accusation. Let's also assume that they don't just go after you, but they decide (in spite of your disclaimer) that the team thinks the same way, and name them as well in any lawsuit. What's a slander/libel lawsuit award run these days, $50K easily? Plus legal fees? That's why you'd want to care what a lawyer would think.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

How does this post and the title of this thread not reflect on your team, Jacob? You are reflecting on your team. What do you think a team is? Is a team something that you step away from or push aside anytime you choose to voice an opinion? If that is your idea of what a team is, you might want to spend some time thinking about and evaluating that mindset. You might also consider asking your mentors to help you out with questions like this before you state your opinions in Chief Delphi that draw a response from Dave Lavery in the manner in which you have done. Mentors are excellent resources and usually have a bigger picture/understanding of FIRST or can find knowledgeable people who do.

Jane

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I would like to know where you got those figures from?

It seems as if you are being quite critical of the Michigan system for money. While it does have it's ups and downs, I can tell you as an outside team, your getting to go to 2 districts, while I as a NE Team am only going to 1 regional for what I believe is the same prices (I apologize if this statement is wrong in advance).

I'm not putting you down for the point your trying to make, everyone is entitled to there own opinion and free speech, and if you want to say FIRST is corrupt that is your own right. But please try to back it up with actual facts at least. I don't think I would have as big of a problem with this argument as I do right now if both sides were using actual cold hard facts and good numbers/statistics.

My $0.02

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

In that case i would have to destroy first. If it comes to that I am sorry to those, my self included, who have enjoyed first.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

You're not going to get very far unless you work on improving your communication skills, punctuation, and spelling errors.

Jane

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

You shold know that i no longer have mentors due to the unavalability of money to our past frc program. Are you sugesting that I am not entitled to my opinion? Dose every idea i have belong or represent my team? If so then we have all done things, thought thoughts, and other wise disrespected our teams.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

How much dose it cost you to attend an not state event?

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

YES.

By affiliating yourself with a team, you are representing them at all times, as you are a member and part of that team. You can't quit your team to say something, then join back on it. The words are tied to you, and you're tying yourself to your team.

If you have ideas you don't want to be affiliated with your team, either don't say them or don't be on that team. You are a constant representative of your team.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Sure - I have a blunt thought:

I have better things to do with my time than engage in an online debate with a trolling nincompoop.

Blake

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

With regards to the KOP questions asked, there are two ways to answer.

The first is, why do they choose to give us a pile of parts that otherwise we'd have to track down for ourselves, thereby making their lives harder and ours easier?

The second is, so that teams who do use substantial amounts of the KOP can get those parts easily, rather than spending lots of time to look around for money or parts.

And I know that a lot of teams use a lot of parts from the KOP, whether they show up in competition or not. 330 tends to build practice robots with kit frame for use as testbeds, and I know we aren't the only ones. Those air storage cylinders are KOP, and quite useful.

The KOP is not required to be used on the competition robot; rather, it is allowed to be used to the extent that a team wishes to use it. (Think about it--motors must be from the KOP, but you don't have to use any particular motor. The cRIO and whatever makes it work electrically is about the only required part.)

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Plus, keep in mind, that regionals aren't cheap. Not only is there a rental fee, to the venue, for the event, but you also have to hire a full staff of support personnel ( ushers, vendors, janitorial, etc. ) which more than likely is receiving union wages. Plus you have the cost of any advertising.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Wow well developed argument thanks for your support...

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

$5k, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, you mention earlier that going to districts, state champs, and championships would cost you 14k. Remember that no one is asking you to raise 14k. To participate in FRC, you need 5k. That gets you a kit and a regional (or two district events). Any expenses past that are your team's choice. And if 5k is too much, FIRST offers a lower-cost robotics competition: FTC.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Jacob,

No, I don't know this. You will have to explain what has happened to your team.

Yes, I am suggesting that as a member of an FRC team and of the FIRST community, when posting in CD, I am very aware of how my posts will impact, affect, or reflect on my team and on the FIRST community. It is part of the bigger picture thinking, Jacob.

FRC is very expensive. Travel to distant competitions is very expensive. Building a sustainable team is difficult and takes much more work than building a robot that will compete for one FRC season. It's not glamorous but it is what will keep the team together and able to compete. If FRC is too expensive due to finances, there are other robotics programs that are available to compete in. If a team is struggling financially and/or with sustainability issues, that does not make FIRST corrupt - it just makes it more difficult to compete in.

Jane

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

To Chris, Jane and everyone else in that camp - I respond with a polite but firm NO

Individuallity does exist, in addition to group affiliations

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Yes, it does, but not when he affiliates himself with a specific team on CD. Whenever anyone usually looks at someone's name on here, they look to see which team they are apart of...at least I do.

Also, changing your profile to not show your team underneath your name doesn't take away the fact that you are a part of that team.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

If you would like to yell at Chris, Blake, fine. Please don't use bolded and enlarged lettering when addressing me in a serious discussion.

Jane

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Are team was successful in the regionals we attended. Until our school told us they would no longer fund us. We all wanted to continue in FRC. We fun-rose all summer, attempted to no avail to gain sponsors. The cost was just to great. So we decided to try FTC instead. which i must say is not nearly as much fun or creative.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Ok, are there any other teams near you? Because I would bet my bottom dollar that if you and a few head mentors from your team went and asked them if you guys could combine teams, they would allow you to do so with open arms.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

If this indeed is the case, then there are other problems here.
First, the amount of money your team has should not impact the number of mentors you have. Mentors should (at least in my opinion and in my experience) be willing volunteers who show up because they want to show up. There shouldn't be a monetary incentive.

Second, your team should work with other teams in your area to learn how to find more sponsors. Sponsors do not approach teams; teams need to approach sponsors. There are great resources around CD to start you on finding sponsors.


Two quick comments about regional costs-
In answer to your question, attending a 2nd regional (regardless of location) is $4k (to FIRST), plus the cost of transportation to the event and lodging (will vary by location).

Your comment regarding how much FIRST spends on regionals was very off base. Though the locations are often on school campuses (or on a sponsor's property), FIRST does not get these locations for free. They may get a discount, but it is still pricey. Factor in the resources that go into shipping the field, shipping awards (you would be surprised!), live streaming, promotion, and even the cost of keeping everything powered for three days, and FIRST gets quite a hefty bill at every regional.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Join a team with more then 50 other people? Ya im shure ill learn a lot. But really I have no desire to join a large team nor dose anyone else that was on the team.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

There's a spotlight from Koko Ed that says, in part, (emphasis mine)

Is there individuality? Yes. But if one member of a group is acting really badly--or really nice--that behavior reflects on the entire group if that member is showing that he or she is part of that group. Disclaimer or no, it will reflect at least to some extent. There have been times on CD that I have seen someone have to try to mend damage caused by someone else on their team, because they know that if somebody doesn't present the other side, the team will gain a reputation that they don't want to have.

Reputations, particularly team reputations, are tough to build and very easy to destroy.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I don't agree with the OP at all, but the idea that FIRST is helping teams out by lowering the entry fee is ridiculous.

They have artificially inflated entry fees while simultaneously drastically cutting the value of the KOP and certain aspects of the event itself (absolutely pathetic trophies, for example).

We used to get a ton of useful stuff every year worth a lot of money that we no longer get, mostly including control system/electronics stuff.

So FIRST may be "helping" us in the sense we're paying $5k for the KOP and first entry instead of $6k, but the fact remains that we used to pay $4k and get a lot more for our money than we do now. I realize that the economy has been very weak lately and it is difficult to even continue to provide the same level of resources in the kit without increasing cost, but even prior to the recession we saw increased entry fees.

This becomes even more unpalatable when you look at FiM where one set of teams gets to pay essentially half as much as the rest of FRC for the same product. I understand that this is due to a subsidy not funded by FIRST, but that doesn't make everyone else not lucky enough to live in Michigan feel better about the fact that we're paying more for less.


While you are right about how it is very expensive to run an event, regional events are responsible for covering the costs of their event independently of FIRST.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Beggers can't be choosers. If you cannot come to some agreement to join with another team, ask if you can use any help or space available to sustain your team for another year till you guys can get back on your feet.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I think you misunderstood what i meant. We no longer have an FRC team because of money. And FTC doesn't have mentors.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

We had no desire to "borrow" money from another team. knowing we couldn't pay them back at all, or for a large amount of time.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Never said "borrow" money. I said that you could become sister-teams and co-exist with each other while being different teams. Think 254/968 but working under the same roof.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I apologize if I misunderstood that part. Though I am sure you could find engineers willing to mentor an FTC team as well.

Also keep in mind that local teams are good for quite a number of things. Though merging with another team may not be optimal, chances are there are teams near you with quite a bit of experience gaining sponsors. Judging by the fact that your are from Michigan, I would guess that there are probably at least 10 teams within driving distance that would be willing to lend you a hand.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Ok so trying to start a team back up 7 or 8 days before kick off is not what i started this thread for, nor do i desire to attempt this.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

When someone on a team does something wrong they don't say "Uh oh! Jimmy was rude to that judge. They say" Check out that kid on (insert team name here) acting nasty to that judge. People identify you by your affiliation first and foremost. One thing we always tell our kids if you are planning on doing something stupid while wearing our team shirt do us a favor and remove it and withdraw from the team because not only are you disrespecting our team and our long and illustrious history and the hard work of the members who worked so hard and so long to build this team's reputation but you are also disrespecting Wilson Magnet High School, Xerox Corporation, Rochester, New York and own family and friends.
So if you are going to pop off about something as volatile as this make sure you have your facts straight so you are not just sullying more than just your own reputation.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I seem to recall, several years ago, at the Wisconsin Regional, there was a team from Muskegon, here, and they barely had enough mouney to pay for their entry fee, much less for transportation and hotel. Their team was small, say abour 6 or 8 students. I spoke to their adult coach, and he told me that they couldn't generate enough local, financial support, for the team. I'm not certain, if this was your team, or not, or even if they survived to compete again. It's very unfortunate, when you can't even get minimum financial support ( or even volunteer mentor support ) for your team. I know the old adage, " If you can move, you can compete ", but as we all know, if all you can do, " is move " you'll be competing to stay out of last place.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Which is perfectly reasonable.

However the people here are providing these suggestions because we very strongly believe in this program and do not want to see teams disbanding. We do all we can to help keep teams together. Though you may need this year to get back on your feet, having your team back together for next year is a perfectly reasonable goal.

As Keehun and a few others have stated, we may actually have something to gain by examining FIRST's financial records. Financial information is very relevant to teams, especially with the economy going the way it has been. However, I (and it seems a number of others here) believe that the root of the problem is not what FIRST is doing with the money, but your team's sustainability.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Jacob, posts like these, e-mails, etc. often come across sounding more harsh than was actually intended. I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you didn't really mean to sound the way we took it.

I'm guessing you were looking for some ideas on how to proceed but the negative tone of your post got in the way.

One thought I had - I have no idea if this is possible or not - is to follow the FRC season in unofficially. Build a robot that is designed for the game but don't register and don't attend any regionals. Maybe you can find off-season events to compete in.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I really just want to know where the money actually goes. I want to know what the kit cost, where first spends its money, and who gives money to first. Such a lego.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Chris, that's a little outlandish.

Given, he did not put a disclaimer that none of his views are associated with his team, but I think we can let that one go.

A lot of the things I put on here are my personal views and not necessarily of my team. I don't confer with my team mentors about everything I put on here. (Probably close to none, if not a post-fact discussion)

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

a) Your lack of "understanding" of how the expense structure works does NOT equate to corruption, merely your lack of corruption.

b) If there is any corruption here it is a moral corruption on your part to do due diligence research before filing libelous claims, without "Facts" in hand.

There are many threads on CD about this subject. It has been covered before. And there are more threads about the "cost" versus the "value" of the program. There is a thread that was done nearly a year ago on this very subject.

Have you read the financial statements of FIRST ? Do you know how the read statement ? Do you know how to create a costed BOM ? Do you understand the difference between cost and value.

Professor Charles W. Kingsfield Jr. would be "delighted" to have you in his class !!

A libelous bomb is thrown into the middle of CD and you then ask for no "negative comments".

I'm stunned...

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

There actually was a disclaimer. First post.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

In response to this and every other thread similar to this one in existence, you do not realize how good you have it. Let me put a few things in perspective for you, from someone who has been in this thing for 17 years.

When I was a student...

1. The kit of parts was heavily limited. You could only use parts available from the kit itself, or Small Parts Inc.

2. THERE WAS NO FTC OR FLL

3. For the first year, there was no music playing, no lights, nothing but a large projector screen with a clock.

4. There were no resources available to buy gearbox assemblies, omni wheels, etc...

5. The control system wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is now.

6. The playing field was not standardized for ease of use from year to year.

7. There was no NASA grant. There was hardly any grants at all...which means teams had to find money the hard way, and if you think finding money is hard now, you should have seen it back then!

8. The championship was not held in a massive sports dome.

9. There was only 1 regional my first year involved...before that, there were no regionals and championships was held at a high school gym!

In essence, FIRST has grown from a small, highly restricted competition held in a high school gymnasium, to a major event held in arenas, convention centers, and ultimately a massive sports dome. The materials you can use are so wide open that you have endless creativity compared to what I had as a student. Sensors, cameras, C programing language, wifi gaming adapters...we had NONE of that. We built robots out of plywood and PVC, threw wheels on it, and drove it around a field that was half the size that you have now.

FIRST has worked hard from year one to find ways to make this program better and better for those who are involved. For all those special things that
you see at a competition these days, for the Kitbots you are handed every year (WE HAD TO BUILD EVERY DRIVE TRAIN!!!!!), for each and every upgrade that is revealed, for each game you see unveiled before your eyes, you need one thing...MONEY. Yes...FIRST is expensive and for good reason. Unless you want to see Einstein held back at the Memorial High School Gym in Manchester every year, you are going to have to shell out some cash. I live in an area so saturated by FIRST teams, that we are literally running out of companies to sponsor us. The fact of the matter is, we find a way to get the money. We have been finding a way to get money for twenty years. There are tons of grants, tons of companies willing to donate money, space, or otherwise, and tons of different fundraising methods you can use.

In short...where the money goes is right in front of your eyes, and you just don't see it. I suggest instead of complaining about what FIRST does right or what FIRST does wrong in its own business model, that you go out and take a proactive stance in trying to fund your team. If you don't like the rules that FIRST gives or don't like spending the money, I assure you that there are alternatives out there. Go find them. Otherwise...suck it up!

Just my opinion.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I did not wish to get into this discussion, but I do have one thing to say. If he did indeed say something that negatively reflects his team, making negative comments about the fact that he did that does not positively show your team as well. Please be careful that when explaining how to 'best represent your team', you do the same. We should not be rude to the original poster just because he was rude to us, although I am not saying that he was.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

Your team has difficulty raising money to compete in FRC, so your reaction is to project these shortcomings onto a third-party by making baseless/libelous accusations about them on a public forum?

Creating a sustainable FRC program is a long, time-consuming process that isn't necessarily guaranteed to succeed. Sometimes for various reasons, the critical mass of resources does not exist to create a sustainable FRC team. That's why FTC and VRC (and many other low-cost robotics competitions) were created. If you still want to be involved with FRC, build a FRC robot anyway and only compete at off-season events, merge with another team, volunteer at events, or follow the universal advice for nearly everything in life: stop whining about something that can be solved by working harder.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

This, once again, is not an accusation, mealy a thought an idea something to consider.Don't throw out an idea simply because you don't agree. I looked a the financial report and I don't understand it and i'm sure very few people do.
I'm sure somethings can easily be explained and i'm sure i'm wrong about somethings but what if there is something here that needs to be looked at. Should it be overlooked because its an unpopular idea?

If you think its a libelous claim then sue me.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I'm sure if FIRST thinks it's warranted FIRST will.
Hopefully, for your sake, FIRST won't think it's worth their time.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

The original post wasn't "rude", it was "libelous".

There is a world of difference. Making libelous accusations because of

a) you don't agree with the price of the product you are buying, or
b) you don't have the business plan to allow your team to participate

isn't too smart for a hundred reasons..

It isn't a matter of 'manners', it is a matter of 'judgement'.

Along with having good manners, having good judgement goes a long way in life.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

I invite them to try.

Re: A Corrupt FIRST?
 

...and we're taking a breather. Enjoy your Saturday night, folks.