2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

http://usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/....aspx?id=18713

A low resolution picture of the FIRST logo.
There was a post on the game hint 1 thread about the dimensions of the picture (the Comic Sans post :P)

Hmmmm :confused:

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

1. Either all three shapes will be used in the game OR:

2. Something from the 1st FIRST game will be used.

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Were playing Triple-Play, but hanging upside down from tracks.

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20th year anniversary, right? Maybe they're just reminding us this. Or are they telling us that we haven't remembered this in our interpretations of the 1st clue?

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Notice how the shapes are linked together? Kind of like train cars....

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I suspect 3 different shaped game pieces :ahh:

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IDK if it's just me but the triangle looks more emphasized in this logo. Maybe we are going back to tetras or some form of triangles for game pieces???

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This was my first thought.

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That'd kind of would surprise me. I thought the GDC wanted games that were super simple to understand and decided to use a few game pieces all of which are the same.

Has anyone analyzed the image for hidden content or anything? Any significance that it appears to be a lower resolution?

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Has there been any previous games with multiple game pieces of different shapes?

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Lower resolution may mean faster camera throughput to the driver's station by lowering the resolution of the camera.

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If you're talking about different shaped game pieces, none come to mind. However, there have been game pieces worth different values - like in Lunacy.

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Game pieces are my vote. Even though that does seem a bit too straight forward...

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My guess is recycled game!

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Sometimes the best hiding places are in plain sight.

EDIT: I like the three game pieces. It covers all the games throughout the year with first.

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Hmm. Very interesting. Has anybody found the size out yet? 336x237 I think. 336-237=99. 99 game pieces maybe? Many possibilities.

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Outstanding. I've been looking forward to a game that uses multi-shape game objects. They finally took my advice. Good on ya, mates!
Edit: There have been multiple-sized elements - FIRST Frenzy: Raising The Bar, and a couple VRC games.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

I'm going to guess it's something related to the Archimedes-inspired origins of the FIRST logo that they talked about at championships last year.

Displacement?
Levers?
Archimedes screws?

Hm, 2 out of 3 seem to point to water game...

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With what we know from the 1st hint, assuming "locomotion", I think we can look at a couple of possibilities:
1. Trains - we see these symbols linked together
2. FIRST logo - definitely a game celebrating the history of FIRST.
- question - I know there were some minor changes made to the logo that Dean's father originally put together - if so, what year did this particular logo appear.
3. Shapes - multiple game pieces
4. Floor - perhaps not game pieces, but varied surface bumps and obstacles? Certainly would cause "loco" motion driving over them.

Side note- is there a way to change the thread title to say - Hint #2 - read the first 5 pages - so we don't get 250 "beating a dead horse" posts? :)

Steve

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

Connections.

---
Yay! We have another game hint! Yay!

A tote, a trackball, and a tetra! That would be so funny.

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Tennis balls and Water game?

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/blog/...urn=ten-302793

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That is a fantastic idea

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Probably means that this year's game will be brought to us by FIRST.

Might as well go for the obvious :yikes:

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How about three surfaces on the playing field? Or maybe two surfaces and a circle in the center spinning slowly? Driving onto the circle woud definately cause 'Loco-Motion'. Or maybe two circles in the gaps of a wall so that the bots have to enter the spinning circle to get past the wall?

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Multiple game pieces = cargo.

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Lets combine two thoughts here.

Game Hint #1 and Game Hint #2. Maybe its that simple. This could verify the concept of having to link to our alliance, due to the fact that the FIRST logo is linking a triangle and square.

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Kind of agree with the multiple game pieces as cargo. Even the rotating center field would be awesome!

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I doubt FIRST would hide data inside the image, but I'll have a go at it anyway.

It was created in Photoshop CS3, and has a resolution of 336x237 @ 100dpi when printed. It was created on December 16th, 2010 at 11:51:07. Other than that, there is no other EXIF or IPTC or JFIF metadata. No attached keywords. Raising the contrast and brightness don't really do anything out of the ordinary. Also, compared to other FIRST logos, none of the shapes are any larger or smaller than normal. I don't think any of this is really important.

And somewhat off topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography

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Million-dollar idea right here.

We might act as trains, having to load up our bots, then dumping them at a target. Going further with the "locomotion/train" idea, the bots may only be restricted to certain "tracks" or "lanes", depending on criteria.

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I'm going with skebhners2 here. Robots linked together. The fun question:

Are you linked to your partner, or to your opponent? :yikes:

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Yeah im gonna have to say this one seems like its a linkage clue....

just going obvious here, these one seems to be the most blunt clue yet

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Cones have a square base, a rounded shape, and a triangular side-profile view.

And they stack.

Lord help us all...

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also, the triangle is red and the square is blue, possibly representing the red and blue alliances, so maybe the game is a huge game of chasing the opponent around and attempting to link onto them. However that doesn't seem like the most high scoring/exciting game, so maybe that's just the end game.

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That or a cargo clue. BTW, When this thing gets to 5 pages, someone should do a summary of all the activity.

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Answering my own question. This style logo appeared in 2005, with Triple Play - which was also released on January 8th.

Maybe an updated version of that game. 3D tic-tac-toe was certainly easy for audiences to comprehend!

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The image on the hint page has dimensions 315x223 while the actual image that is only labeled as logo.jpg has dimension 336x237.

I don't know if that means anything just seems odd that they would specifically change it and only make it a tad smaller on the hint page.

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I do like the opponents being linked together idea. The logo has red linked with blue/a triangle linked with a square. Now "linked" could be taken a few ways: linked like 2009, linked with a long rope, maybe even a bungee cord, or the game field could be split in 3 sections and alliances are 3v3 but pitted against another team 1v1.

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Red and blue next to eachother reminds me of 3D glasses. ::safety::

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Or what if we have to put the cargo into certain containers (train cars) and then link them together. Points for types of cargo in the cars times how many cars are connected together.

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I'm sure I speak for a majority of the teams, volunteers, and spectators, when I say: I hope not!!!

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Also, It could represent our alliances linking together. Maybe witht he though of each team in the alliance performs a different task to let the other robot continue.

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Perhaps a reference to coopertition? Your alliance cannot do something till the other alliance has done something? That way the play is linked together.

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Exactly what I just stated above. It makes perfect sense.

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How would scoring work?

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How can we work in locomotion?

IMO cones are a great game piece, they also fit in the 20th anniversary, with the stack attack reference.

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And there are two traffic cones visible in this picture of Dave's summer vacation...

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Hint #1: Locomotion
Hint #2: A Logo

#1 + #2 = Logomotion

My guess: It's a shooting game but with moving FIRST Logo targets.

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"Cargo" was a newly-defined term in FLL rules this year.

It seems to me that they have violated their own logo rules here. Maybe a game with no rules penalties? :ahh: We could only hope.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

I was thinking the same thing :) Something along those lines would be possible. It would maybe be some recreation of the 1st FIRST game since it is their anniversairy. Another thing is that it could be a linakge game because of "Little Eva" and her song "Loco - Motion". Possibly all teams on the alliance's robots are connected together to do some sort of race, or an obstacle course, considering Robot locomotion is the study of how to design robot appendages and control mechanisms to allow robots to move fluidly and efficiently.



Hope to give some people ideas :D

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Introducing the White alliance

actually I am going to go with the game piece idea

Tetras, totes and tubes-Balls

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Scoring could be based on teamwork, until a divided end game begins.

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In the first hint of little Eva, her face, shoulder and pole make a triangle. Her buttons are circles and the picture is itself is almost square.

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And now we're flying somewhere...

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Maybe it has to do with Coopertition? Maybe you have to work with the opposite alliance?

Or maybe linking and unlinking to a rail?

Linking to another robot? Meaning some part(s) of the robot may extend outside the bumper zone?

A third alliance...? (Don't think so)

Hmm...

EDIT: By the time I typed and posted this, it seems a bunch of other people also posted my ideas. Sorry if I repeated things.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

Though, a 3rd Alliance-White Alliance, would be quite interesting...

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Haha! The two plastic totes we get with the kit could be a game piece! :rolleyes: :p

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For example, there is a ball dispenser in the middle of the field. One set of red balls and one set of blue balls. Neither set of balls is released until a red button and a blue button is pushed unless one of them is pushed in autonomous mode, then the both drop. I am sure others will have better ideas, but this is just spur of the moment.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

I doubt that they would ever actively link robots, considering how many simply end up not working, possibly crippling an alliance. Maybe the linking is metaphorical--your score is tied to that of your opponents:

An extremely coopertition heavy game.

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Linking field objects is an idea.

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Crap. There was a second hint after all, looks like I was wrong... :o

I really, really, really hope this means that there are going to be multiple scoring objects or objectives. That would be too cool.

Or another Alliance. That'd be cool too.

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also theres the white circle in between so maybe thats a common link between red and blue alliance.....

one blue and one red link up?

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The problem with three alliances is that two of the alliances tend to team up against the third, especially if the third is a real good alliance. I don't think FIRST really wants this. Unless, of course, the game is designed to prevent that in some way.

EDIT: Of course, they may do it for one year just to get us out of our comfort zone.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

Lets assume that there are three different game pieces. would they be worth the same amount of points? Would one be a multiplier? Would one be used only in autonomous mode, What would the Human Players do?

One human player on each alliance handles balls, totes, and triangles.

Would they have separate scoring areas, or one container, or we would need to score them in the opposing alliances tailor...

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

this is not my idea but it needs to be passed along, it actually belongs to a teammate named Michael K.

stack cones on top of a pillar, maybe even as an end game

or the more you stack on top the more points, also gives descoring a possibility

just fueling the fire

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

I was thinking along the Idea of 3 alliances myself, I find it unlikely but it could be where there are 3 periods, red + blue, then blue + white, then white + red

Where each alliance links up, for part of the match, down side is it may become confusing and we’ll have to make another set of bumpers :p

Like a 3 legged robot race :p

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

Opposite alliance cooperation is unlikely because the GDC is trying to make FIRST more sport-like.

The first game hint was the cover of Little Eva's greatest hits album.
The second game hint is the logo of FIRST.

My vote goes to the GDC reusing old game functions.
It's going to be one "loco" game!

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

i think the 1st one is a possibility becuase they have used it in FTC games with goals and those types of things though it could be game pieces

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isnt this year the 20th anniversary so arent they trying to celebrate or whatever?

maybe the three pieces (triangle circle square) are old pieces?

circle = tubes from Rack N' Roll
triangle = tetras from Triple Play
squares = Goal from breakaway or maybe even the tower

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

I love the traffic cone idea! Although, they would probably be crushed after a few qualification rounds.

How about another obstacle course game. That would definitely give us some "loco" motion!

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WOW i like this connection! LogoMotion would mean that field elements shaped like the logo are movable. Pushing the "LOGOS" into a scoring zone would get the points. With more logos than robots, it will be tough to hang onto a single piece. Simple scoring by counting the pieces in each zone. Simple setup.
Lots of pushing!!!

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

That's what was said in 2007 with the inner tubes. It was true, too -- many a tube was demolished. Yet the tubes were cheap enough to enable having spares, as are most cones.

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If you look closely at the picture, there is no white circle, only shadows that alludes to a circle being there. Maybe the absence of the circle means no balls this year.

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well they have a habit of switching from a ball to a non-ball piece every other year and i am thinking we have the three differnet game pieces with three different shaped goals and possibly in order to goal you must put a red triangle in first than a circle then a square or some order that must make an alliance plan combine their efforts

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

An upside down cone could be a funnel. Maybe the game piece is small cubes and the goal is a round funnel. The trick is to get a square through a round hole.

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This one doesn't give me much to overanalyze - it fits in with my previous theory that this year's game will pay tribute to previous years as FIRST celebrates its 20th season. Or the linked aspect of the logo is related to the first hint which we got "Locomotion" out of.

Maybe I've just realized that I'm never going to guess the game from the game hint and that even if I did guess the whole thing, it wouldn't make that much of a difference. I did guess the date of the release of the second hint correctly, though!

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maybe they will take an idea from an FTC game two years ago with three levels (each one of the three shapes) and the lowest is the least points highest is the most. they might also take it up a notch and instead of just using the same piece (hockey pucks in FTCs case) and make us put the different shaped pieces in their corressponding goal.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

Also the circle could represent a ball as in trackball from overdrive, moon rock from lunacy, or an aim high ball.

I also think that the square would have to be a game piece rather than gust a tower, maybe has something to do with the train idea.

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the first game had tennis balls and a sand box:ahh:
tethered robots
and you had to collect the tennis balls and hold them

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Balls, Tetras, and Bins.

Bring it on!

(Goes to design some new games in sketchup)

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Anyone else have a severe headache right now?

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I will say it because no one else has. Red, white, and blue alliance. 2 v 2 v 2.

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i know i am just spitting out ideas but maybe the piece will be the actual first logo and you have to put it in a slot that is a track or conveyor that pulls it back to the human player who can give it back to a robot ( think lunacy and breakaway combined)

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If you aren't overanalyzing the second hint, you aren't trying hard enough! :D

Granted, it doesn't do much good, other than reving up your brain cells for kick off, but its still fun!

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

i dont have a headache it actually went away because i got so happy and excited about the new game hint
and to andy grady- i dont think they would do that becuase that would make the whole alliance thing into just a pair thing and plus it would screw up the field (try and fit a triangular field into most places and still have room to put stands) also if they are saluting first they wont switch a thing that has been around for quite a while

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

I've got a million other things going on this week so I'm saving up as many brain cells for Kickoff as possible :p

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

Close - The field wasn't a Sand Box, it was covered with Corn.

Still would like to see a re-make of Maize Craze though.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

Ahhh, minutes to late to have this be an original suggestion, but still. Even if all three shapes are significant to the game, game pieces aren't the only important parts of the field. Just look at the BUMPs. I'm horrible at predictions, though, so here are some random ideas:

Circles: balls, rods, tall hollow cylinders, racetracks(ish)(again?), discs/frisbees
Triangles: pyramids, funnels, upside down pyramid goals, ramps, teeter-totter ramps, aerobees
Squares: blocks, boxes, steps/stairs, bricks,

Or.... A load of really funny shaped inner tubes or PVC rings that look exactly like the logo.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is we're not doing balls again, though. We've done balls three years in a row now, so I think the GDC has played that out for a little while.

<--------Pointless unrelated rambling below this point-------->

Actually, I like pyramid goals and balls. Different size balls. And maybe you get a multiplier based on how full or empty the goal is, so packing efficiency and the order you put things in is important. A vibratory robot to settle the balls in the goal might be important.

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What if tennis balls were scattered across the field similar to corn of the first FRC game. Then there could be other game elements which would act like the tennis balls of the first FRC game. That could be very challenging.

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I think this would be interesting from a strategy point too; what if one from each of the 3 alliances was on each side? So a red, white and blue on one side, red white and blue on the other.
Mixin up the strategies and everything. ("Things are not as they appear")

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

How would that work as in placement?

Or... could the 3rd alliance serve a different purpose? Same goals, same game, different purpose?

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I'm not sure what year the FIRST Logo was created but looking at the game history page it was not used on the game manuals until 1998 Ladder Logic, not sure if that is actually relevant either

EDIT: I see the logo was used the 1st year but it was black and white, wasn't used again and in color until 1998 Ladder Logic

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Hey... wasn't this image first used in 2005? ;)

Note: if anyone posted something like this, sorry for the double post.

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The FRC version of the Prisoner's Dilemma? I like it.

----

The Red button is accessible to the Blue alliance; the Blue button is accessible to the Red alliance. If the Red button is pressed during auto, all Red game pieces are released at the start of teleop. If the Blue button is pressed during auto, all Blue pieces are released at the start of teleop. If both are pressed, all game pieces are instantly released.
Otherwise, the game pieces are inaccessible until 30 seconds after the start of teleop.

Re: 2011 FRC Game Hint #2
 

maybe not three alliances but three zones (possibly levels) and each robot has to do a differnet task on each and there would be limits on how many robots in each zone ( like last year) and in each zone there is a different shaped goal and maybe the middle zone raised so if you score there its more points

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White Blue Red
| Field |
| Field |
| Field |
| Field |
White Blue Red

Maybe each of the 6 teams are working together, but they score points seperate into their Alliance? Kinda Diabolical Dynamics.

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Or what if there is still 6 robots on the field and still distinguishable red and blue alliances but there are 2 robots that are like the white/invisible circle in the logo and they arent part of either alliance but can play and score for both. Wouldnt that be a change from the norm? lol. Red+/-White vs. Blue+/-White! And if they kept the scoring close to the same system as last year, the White/free-lancers would get the combined score. This would make the competition alot higher because the red and blues would want to win and the white/free-lancers would want the highest score possible.

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interesting maybe during auto they make it so there are two drops one for each alliance and the opposing allilance robots goal in that zone is to block the other robot (last year blocking goals)

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Maybe there are no alliances, maybe three different fields with three robots.

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Teams would have to have fewer qualification rounds to compensate for the additional strain on the schedule that fewer concurrent matches would cause. We already get too few chances to have iterative success, in my opinion.

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I really doubt they'll decrease the 3 teams per alliance structure. One of the best ways to promote an activity or sport is to have a lot of success. Sending 3 champions (plus chairman's plus rookie all-star) home after every event helps raise visibility in the schools & communities; also the automatic invites for 5 teams from each regional to the Championships helps boost the number of quality participants, and by extension, excitement level.