Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

First off, a note on the tower sensor. I have been told by someone who was at the FIRST NH Kickoff and went down to look on the field, is that the "sensor" is 3 limit switches, connected in series, positioned equally around the circumference of the target. What does this mean? It means your bot needs to be applying pressure to most of the plate so that all 3 switches trigger. Since it's in series, if one doesn't trigger, the light doesn't trigger/you don't get endgame points.

THIS being said. Although a launcher may be faster (completely ignoring the fact they're most likely ILLEGAL), it seems a launcher may have a greater percentage of error when achieving endgame points. For instance:

• If you have a launcher, it's a one and done deal, hope it hits everything with the right amount of force AND THE TARGET DOESN'T TILT IN ANYWAY and if anything goes wrong, you're screwed and you can't retry (because the bot has already touched the pole and is after deployment/can't get touched by the hostbot without a penalty).

• If you have something that physically climbs it (ie Wheels, Grabber, etc), you can continuously provide pressure from all areas of the tower until time expires (EVEN AFTER TIME EXPIRES IF YOU SO CHOOSE :p ). This results in maybe a SLOWER bot but with GREATER chances of completing the task at hand. So with a robot that can cover at least half, if not more of the target, and continually applies force by driving up it even after it's hit it, it has a MUCH bigger chance of activating it EVERY TIME.

Now, as to why I think it's illegal and/or not worth your time...

Okay so I'm pretty sure almost every team has talked about this idea but I still think the Q&A will vote these "launching" ideas as illegal. Based on the rules already provided in this thread:

Deployment ENDS when your robot contacts the pole. The instant deployment ends, the robot must be fully autonomous (No help from the host bot or controls). So first off, this cancels all ideas of launching it after it's latched onto the pole. Now the other problem is the definition of "climb", if based on this, the minibot must propel itself, all launching is a no go.

Now, a reason why launching might not be as good of an idea as you first thought. Let's say you get your deployment mechanism out and surrounding the pole in the last 10 seconds and your minibot still hasn't touched the pole. You need to:

A) Launch the minibot with enough force to make sure it hits the target on its first try
B) Close around the pole in some way so it doesn't fly off into space
C) Make sure the minibot accomplishes task B before the release line
D) Get the hostbot out of the way so that when the minibot comes hurtling down after, it doesn't hit the hostbot and incur a penalty (making contact after deployment).

I feel like with all the speculation on rules and everything that HAS to go your way in order to make it work, gearing up some TETRIX wheels to shoot skyward doesn't seem like an awful idea after all...


But for the love of god, if you decide to build a physical climbing robot, make it go in reverse after 10 seconds to make your life and the volunteers life easy. :rolleyes:

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Interesting... Was your contact at kick-off certain that the limit switches were wired in a normally open setting? Maybe they are normally closed so any one of them will act as a trigger? If not, then that means that minibots must account for any off-center force vector, or (more likely) at least provide enough margin through trial and error.

BTW, the field drawings show that the sensor assembly does not include any springs, so it looks like its mostly the weight of the 1/4 inch polycarb plate that has to be overcome to get to the limit switches. So the 2-4 newtons number is probably just due to that. But 2.2.5 also says the force depends on where you contact the plate. So somebody (not me) might be able to do enough calculations to determine whether all three switches have to be triggered...

Note also, there are (less forgiving) bolts/nuts/fender washers under the bottom sensor plate centered on a 7 inch square that minibots will probably want to avoid hitting directly.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I will contact her tomorrow Randy and get the sensor specifics answered.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Maybe. Another interpretation could be that DEPLOYMENT ends when the MINIBOT loses contact with the HOSTBOT. It's not defined in the rules.


Teams, don't forget this!


Please, please, please! At least have a switch somewhere on the bottom of your MINIBOT that can be used to reverse the motors after the match ends. Bring a pole to hit the switch.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Since deploymnet is defined as the act of positioning the minibot on the tower, then when the minibot is so positioned, deployment is complete.

Note: many of us have been using pole/tower interchangeably when speaking of deployment, but I don't see any point in setting a minibot on the base and having to figure out how to get itself on the pole.

Um, if a minibot is designed to simply keep climbing forever, won't it spend most of its short life stalling out its motors at the top of the tower? Or at least wearing ruts in its wheels? Or both? Teams won't be allowed to just jump on the field when the match is over, it could be a minute or two while refs confer.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

If you are limited to a 12" high minibot, how would you be able to pass another one if it is close to that dimension?

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Here is the Image of the Tower Trigger if anyone is still wondering (sorry missed the end of this thread).

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Just wondering... if the minibots don't need to stay at the top of the poles, do they have to get back down by themselves, or can use use a ladder or something of the sort to retrieve them?

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I have been searching the Q&A site to see if anyone has posted the question of whether the minibot has to stay at the top of the pole, but can't find it. I am concerned, based on the damage stalling these motors does, about trying to keep the bot at the top of the pole. Our team is having trouble posting questions so I was hoping some one here might have asked. Any help would be appreciated.:confused:

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Weird, I found an answer in the Q/A fine.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16121

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

You cannot have any device with "Stored energy" in your mini bot, this does not include the battery, but eliminates springs and rubber bands and whatnot. This is what my mentor told me so I hope this helps.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Rubber bands are on the allowed list of materials. However, slingshot-ing a robot up the pole is not allowed (Team Update 1).

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

You cannot use a ladder or other device

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16331

I just posted a follow up question
1) can we stand on the base
2) can we design a feature on the operator console to retrieve the minibot

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Darknight,
That is an incorrect interpretation of the rule... Vertical motion on the minibot can come from the battery and motors only.
TU#1
<G19> After DEPLOYMENT, MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous and move up the POST solely through electric energy provided after DEPLOYMENT by the permitted, unaltered battery and converted to mechanical energy by the permitted unaltered motors (and associated, appropriate circuitry).
The allowed parts list can be used for other things.

If the switches at the top of the post are in fact wired in series, activating any switch should trigger the response. It would be the way I would design/wire it to give the quickest response to minibot contact.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

This is in the rules...?

I read the definition of Deployment to mean that the "deployment" ends when you are no longer in contact with the minibot.

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference. DEPLOYMENT ends when the HOSTBOT is no longer in contact with the MINIBOT. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)

<G19> MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous and move up the POST solely through electric energy provided after DEPLOYMENT by the permitted, unaltered battery and converted to mechanical energy by the permitted unaltered motors (and associated, appropriate circuitry).

Thus G19 says you cannot transfer electric energy from your minibot battery into your motors until "deployment" is complete...."deployment" is not complete until you are no longer touching your minibot. We're spending quite a bit of time and energy making sure we are no longer touching minibot when the juice starts flowing......have I read too much into this?

Does G22 really mean that after you trip the switch, and your mini comes down, that it cannot touch your hostbot with incurring a penalty?

<G22> HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE‟S MINIBOT once any part of it has climbed above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.