Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

We can't find in the rules if the minibots must stay at the top of the pole or simply press it and then fall down. Does anyone know?

Also, how much force is required to push the minibot goal?

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I see nothing in the rules indicating that Minibots must stay at the top of the pole once it is reached. That would be a good Q&A question when it opens.

Contact force is approximately 2-4 Newtons:

From section 2.2.5

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I would be inclined to agree.

From everything we have seen, the minibot hits a switch at the top, and once that switch has been hit the bonus for reaching the top is scored. Thus after hitting that switch, minibots can do whatever.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Thinking along these same lines, interested in the answer.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

based on the results of the GDC ruling on this, i foresee two possible outcomes: either a lot of broken polycarb plates from minibots running into them too quickly, or minibots exiting the arena after blasting through the scoring plate, if they dont need to remain in contact with them. one idea we had was to use springs to jettison something very light and more of just a mechanism than a "minibot" which would hit the plate.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

good ? to ask GDC imm conccern with the plates breaking too

and 2-4 netwons to push the plate

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

but does that now mean that is not a viable minibot? thus illegal

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

well it looks like, based on section 4.3.14 (not 3.4.14 as is indicated in the definition of a MINIBOT, that section does not exist) there are no minimum requirements for what the minibot must be. at least, that is my understanding of the rules. There is a big list of everything that can be used on it, but i dont see anywhere saying that you have to use the NXT/motors/batteries for it. I could be quite wrong about this though.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

There is a penalty for letting the field team retrieve it.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Based on <R92> the only materials you could use to jettison something to the top are rubber bands or surgical tubing. So i think a sling shot type mechanism might be possible.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

You have to use the batteries/motors/NXT controller.

The Mini bot must be 12' x 12' x 12' and cannot be more than 15 pounds

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

We cannot use springs for the minibot we have to use a motor (maximum is 2)
(law of gravity) perhaps something different to work with motor!
Hopefully this helps!

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I can't see anything that says we HAVE to use the battery and motors. I do see the list of parts that we are allowed to use. I don't see anything that says that, out of those parts, something in particular is required for it to be a legal minibot. As long as the propulsion device is on that list (even if it's a rubber band or surgical tubing), it looks like we can use it.

If there is a rule that explains this further, I seemed to have missed it, and I'd appreciate it if it was cited :/

We were wondering if the minibot had to stay at the top as well. Everyone was asking, and I just kept responding "NOBODY KNOWS." and that it was a great Q&A question.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I think we are required to use a battery, but that is all:

<R92> The following items are the only permitted materials for use on the MINIBOTS: [...]
C. exactly one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057)
[Robot, page 30]

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

That just means that it's permitted, and that we can't use more than one. Just because it's included doesn't mean that it's required unless stated otherwise. What I'm trying to get at is that it's not like 2009, where the rover wheels were included and REQUIRED, and it was clearly stated.

Another question for the Q&A.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

In terms of it staying at the top of the pole:

TRIGGERED – the act of pushing the bottom disk of the TARGET so that the sensors are tripped and a signal is sent to the Field Management System (FMS). When a TARGET is TRIGGERED, the MINIBOT RACE on that TOWER is complete.

Page 12, Section 1

By this definition, it doesn't seem that it needs to remain there, it just needs to touch the top.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I agree with that, because it also states in the manual that the scoring is based on the number of lights illuminated at the top of the pole.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

We were thinking about launch our MINIBOT vertically to the top of tower. But the rule <G19> provide something interesting:

<G19> After DEPLOYMENT, MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous.

I think that if you store some energy (like elastic through rubbers i.e.) on your ROBOT to launch your MINIBOT, it won't be autonomous.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

The launching thought has come up SO many times, but the ruling as far as minibots after being deployed states that:

<G46> MINIBOTS may only be used to climb the TOWER.

So it's dependent on whatever GDC defines 'climb' as.

Also:

<R92> Does not necessarily rule out springs. Part J says that you can have:

non-metallic rope or cord.

But yeah, refer to <R92> for all the FTC bot components that are usable.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

The limits are what is in the specific kits. There are no springs in the list, so if you use a spring it would be on your host robot, and would need to conform to safety and envelope rules regarding that bot. You want to use stored force you're going to need to use the rubber bands or surgical tubing route.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

You could potentially use surgical tubing/rubber bands to launch the minibot part of the way up as well.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

If I read correctly though, you must deploy below the marked section of the pole which from the base is an 18" zone.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Yes, but I believe what he is saying, is to use those to give it a boost.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Well what if you created a "jumping bean" minibot. You set it, and it uses rubber bands or surgical tubing to "jump" to the top without necessarily gripping the pole.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

"MINIBOT RACE – a competition in which MINIBOTS are DEPLOYED, climb the TOWER, and TRIGGER the TARGET. The MINIBOT RACE begins at the start of the END GAME."

"climb" would be the operative word here, I think... Rational engineering understanding would not try to lawyer that into fly, toss, etc. It's a climbing race, pure and simple.

"DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)"

"positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER"... I would also interpret that as disallowing applying any momentum to the minibot. "Positioning on" clearly implies simple placement (on the climbing pole).

Finally, the POLE is 10 feet tall; if the minibot doesn't climb back down on its own, you will either have to have a retrieval pole or have the field reset people get it down for you (not good).

I think any attempt to do anything other than climb the tower and come back down (without damaging the target!) will either be explicitly disallowed by Q&A or result in yellow/red flag...

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

based on my understanding of the game manual and others' posts, the minibot must trigger a plate system, requiring 2-4 newtons for the lower plate to raise at least 1/4". The upper plate is probably for stability and compression purposes (2.2.5, 4th paragraph).

As was stated earlier (definition of Triggered, ch.1):
"When as target is triggered, the minibot race on that tower is complete."

Once the sensor is tripped, it is irrelevant what the minibot does, as long as it doesn't break tele-op rules and can get down so referees don't have to and possibly penalize you for it <G59>: One thought is to have a limit switch on the top of your minibot, triggering a downward climb of the minibot.

be careful of <G42> which says "Robots, minibots, or hostbots may not intentionally detach parts or leave mechanisms on the field (with the exception of appropriate deployment of the minibot)." No parachute jump off.

As for the energy equivalent. Energy can only be stored as follows <R01>:

Electrical Energy
Compressed Air (120PSI max)
Change in altitude of robot center of gravity
storage achieved by deformation of robot parts. (i.e. spring compression)

End Game rule <G19> says:
" After deployment, minibots must remain completely autonomous."

Again, as <G42> states, you can only detach pieces as per appropriate Deployment of a minibot, which is defined as:
"Act of positioning a minibot on a tower. deployment starts when the minibot breaks the vertical projection of the tower base circumference."

FIRST
has made clear when deployment starts, but not when deployment ends. IF deployment has not ended until the hostbot and minibot have separated, then using springs or pneumatics to launch the minibot (with stored energy) is perfectly legal (as long as they're safe). The energy transferred to the minibot will be from storage of the hostbot springs, and will be autonomous ONLY AFTER separation. From an energy standpoint, launching a minibot is legally autonomous. In essence, the question to be addressed is specifically when deployment ends. If climbing the tower seems to include "jumping bean bots" that don't actually touch the tower, then a bot that is launched up the tower is also "climbing."

I like the idea of launching the minibot from the hostbot: However, we just completed our projectile launchers from physics class. The most powerful device was an air cannon using pneumatics and a cylindrical shooter, it shot a racquetball over 70 horizontal feet. Just some ideas..

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Deployment "ends" when the minibot is "positioned on" the tower, by definition. Autonomous for the minibot starts immediately, you can't do anything after that to help it out. My take....:cool:

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Launching the mini bot from the hostbot is a little.. erm sketch. I was more referring to the mini bot having its own energy storage device and using that somehow to propel itself up.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Quoting Violation for rule <G20>, not the rule itself. "TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the DEPLOYMENT LINE."

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Yes but what if the minibot can jump under it's own power by means of stretched tubing?

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Your take means nothing. Either cite the manual or an official source.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

<R101>If a MINIBOT is rejected by inspectors due to a safety issue or concern related to the team’s method of storing energy, the concerned items must be disabled or removed from the MINIBOT before it can compete in a MATCH. The team bears the burden of proof that such a rejection is not valid. Teams should be prepared to provide justifiable test data or calculations during inspection to support their design.

I'm sure they can easily use that rule to disqualify any robot using "unsafe" methods of energy storage.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

hey everyone im sitting here a day after kick off reading ppls posts and i cant help but notice, you guys are worrying about how much force it takes once the minibot reaches the top of the post. 2 - 4 newtons is only like a half pound to a pound of force for it to register. All your minibot has to to is just touch it and it'll register! If its got enough force to climb the post, its got plenty of torque to register. lol


Nemisis
Team 2389

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I'm sure you simply meant that my opinion doesn't count any more than anyone else's, and I would completely agree. I did cite the manual in a slightly earlier post in this thread (and in a couple of other related threads), and did not wish to paste in yet again. Clearly, the only opinions that count are the rulings of the GDC, but the point here is to share/discuss our opinions until we can get clarification. Otherwise, why bother with the thread at all?

If you disagree with my take on an issue, that's great. I'd like to hear your reasoning if you want to elaborate. Maybe you can change my mind, maybe I can change yours, maybe we can come up with an approach that includes both our viewpoints, or maybe we'll both turn out to be partially right and wrong... :)

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Reading also the definition of DEPLOYMENT:

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)

It seems that it could be possible to launch a minibot outside the vertical projection of the tower base and above the deployment line as long as the hostbot lets go of the minibot before the minibot breaks the projection. If this is true, then I figure it would much easier to launch the minibot at top of the hostbot since the distance to the sensor would be much less.

Does this seem legal? I feel this is not in the spirit in the game but as far as I can tell it seems legal but perhaps technically difficult to achieve.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

The way i saw things was that you can only use certain items as specified in the rule book and you cant use certain other items but i believe that the rules did state that a minibot needed exactly one battery ie no more no less

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I believe the line that you are thinking of states that are you allowed only one battery. This is to ensure that one does not use more than one power source on their minibot, and I do not believe that any team is obligated to have one.

One could've argued that redirecting balls off the overpass wasn't in the "spirit" of the game, but the spirit of the game, and the game are essentially two different things.

- Sunny

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I like this interpretation and agree with it.
Is storing energy with rubber any different from storing energy chemically (i.e., a battery)?
If the second assertion were true - deployment takes place the instant the robot touches the plane of the base - then my Hostbot's pushing it the rest of the way TO the tower pole wouldn't be allowed, because it's not autonomous on the part of the minibot. Right?

OK, so let's theorize that we CAN in fact continue to push Minibot to the pole. As soon as we RELEASE minibot, it must be autonomous.

What if I release it with a huge spring? It's moving up at 10 m/s, hostbot isn't touching it...and when it slows down enough, the motors take over, propelling minibot the rest of the way to the top.

Does that sound illegal?

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

what would you make the spring out of as there is not a spring in the list of parts you can use for the minibot

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

On the minibots, you could manipulate rubber bands or surgical tubing to store energy. Just an idea.

I don't think that we're sure about the legality of it, but we could also have springs on the hostbots that could make the minibot spring up.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

could you make the your minibot climb over th other minibot:confused:

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

As in making your robot climb over an opponent's robot to beat them up? No. See <G21>.
::rtm::

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Definitely not the opposing alliance's minibot, but as for your own alliance's minibot, such as in the case it stopped working, I don't know...the Q&A opens on Wednesday ;)

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

First off, a note on the tower sensor. I have been told by someone who was at the FIRST NH Kickoff and went down to look on the field, is that the "sensor" is 3 limit switches, connected in series, positioned equally around the circumference of the target. What does this mean? It means your bot needs to be applying pressure to most of the plate so that all 3 switches trigger. Since it's in series, if one doesn't trigger, the light doesn't trigger/you don't get endgame points.

THIS being said. Although a launcher may be faster (completely ignoring the fact they're most likely ILLEGAL), it seems a launcher may have a greater percentage of error when achieving endgame points. For instance:

• If you have a launcher, it's a one and done deal, hope it hits everything with the right amount of force AND THE TARGET DOESN'T TILT IN ANYWAY and if anything goes wrong, you're screwed and you can't retry (because the bot has already touched the pole and is after deployment/can't get touched by the hostbot without a penalty).

• If you have something that physically climbs it (ie Wheels, Grabber, etc), you can continuously provide pressure from all areas of the tower until time expires (EVEN AFTER TIME EXPIRES IF YOU SO CHOOSE :p ). This results in maybe a SLOWER bot but with GREATER chances of completing the task at hand. So with a robot that can cover at least half, if not more of the target, and continually applies force by driving up it even after it's hit it, it has a MUCH bigger chance of activating it EVERY TIME.

Now, as to why I think it's illegal and/or not worth your time...

Okay so I'm pretty sure almost every team has talked about this idea but I still think the Q&A will vote these "launching" ideas as illegal. Based on the rules already provided in this thread:

Deployment ENDS when your robot contacts the pole. The instant deployment ends, the robot must be fully autonomous (No help from the host bot or controls). So first off, this cancels all ideas of launching it after it's latched onto the pole. Now the other problem is the definition of "climb", if based on this, the minibot must propel itself, all launching is a no go.

Now, a reason why launching might not be as good of an idea as you first thought. Let's say you get your deployment mechanism out and surrounding the pole in the last 10 seconds and your minibot still hasn't touched the pole. You need to:

A) Launch the minibot with enough force to make sure it hits the target on its first try
B) Close around the pole in some way so it doesn't fly off into space
C) Make sure the minibot accomplishes task B before the release line
D) Get the hostbot out of the way so that when the minibot comes hurtling down after, it doesn't hit the hostbot and incur a penalty (making contact after deployment).

I feel like with all the speculation on rules and everything that HAS to go your way in order to make it work, gearing up some TETRIX wheels to shoot skyward doesn't seem like an awful idea after all...


But for the love of god, if you decide to build a physical climbing robot, make it go in reverse after 10 seconds to make your life and the volunteers life easy. :rolleyes:

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Interesting... Was your contact at kick-off certain that the limit switches were wired in a normally open setting? Maybe they are normally closed so any one of them will act as a trigger? If not, then that means that minibots must account for any off-center force vector, or (more likely) at least provide enough margin through trial and error.

BTW, the field drawings show that the sensor assembly does not include any springs, so it looks like its mostly the weight of the 1/4 inch polycarb plate that has to be overcome to get to the limit switches. So the 2-4 newtons number is probably just due to that. But 2.2.5 also says the force depends on where you contact the plate. So somebody (not me) might be able to do enough calculations to determine whether all three switches have to be triggered...

Note also, there are (less forgiving) bolts/nuts/fender washers under the bottom sensor plate centered on a 7 inch square that minibots will probably want to avoid hitting directly.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I will contact her tomorrow Randy and get the sensor specifics answered.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Maybe. Another interpretation could be that DEPLOYMENT ends when the MINIBOT loses contact with the HOSTBOT. It's not defined in the rules.


Teams, don't forget this!


Please, please, please! At least have a switch somewhere on the bottom of your MINIBOT that can be used to reverse the motors after the match ends. Bring a pole to hit the switch.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Since deploymnet is defined as the act of positioning the minibot on the tower, then when the minibot is so positioned, deployment is complete.

Note: many of us have been using pole/tower interchangeably when speaking of deployment, but I don't see any point in setting a minibot on the base and having to figure out how to get itself on the pole.

Um, if a minibot is designed to simply keep climbing forever, won't it spend most of its short life stalling out its motors at the top of the tower? Or at least wearing ruts in its wheels? Or both? Teams won't be allowed to just jump on the field when the match is over, it could be a minute or two while refs confer.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

If you are limited to a 12" high minibot, how would you be able to pass another one if it is close to that dimension?

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Here is the Image of the Tower Trigger if anyone is still wondering (sorry missed the end of this thread).

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Just wondering... if the minibots don't need to stay at the top of the poles, do they have to get back down by themselves, or can use use a ladder or something of the sort to retrieve them?

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

I have been searching the Q&A site to see if anyone has posted the question of whether the minibot has to stay at the top of the pole, but can't find it. I am concerned, based on the damage stalling these motors does, about trying to keep the bot at the top of the pole. Our team is having trouble posting questions so I was hoping some one here might have asked. Any help would be appreciated.:confused:

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Weird, I found an answer in the Q/A fine.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16121

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

You cannot have any device with "Stored energy" in your mini bot, this does not include the battery, but eliminates springs and rubber bands and whatnot. This is what my mentor told me so I hope this helps.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Rubber bands are on the allowed list of materials. However, slingshot-ing a robot up the pole is not allowed (Team Update 1).

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

You cannot use a ladder or other device

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16331

I just posted a follow up question
1) can we stand on the base
2) can we design a feature on the operator console to retrieve the minibot

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Darknight,
That is an incorrect interpretation of the rule... Vertical motion on the minibot can come from the battery and motors only.
TU#1
<G19> After DEPLOYMENT, MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous and move up the POST solely through electric energy provided after DEPLOYMENT by the permitted, unaltered battery and converted to mechanical energy by the permitted unaltered motors (and associated, appropriate circuitry).
The allowed parts list can be used for other things.

If the switches at the top of the post are in fact wired in series, activating any switch should trigger the response. It would be the way I would design/wire it to give the quickest response to minibot contact.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

This is in the rules...?

I read the definition of Deployment to mean that the "deployment" ends when you are no longer in contact with the minibot.

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference. DEPLOYMENT ends when the HOSTBOT is no longer in contact with the MINIBOT. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)

<G19> MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous and move up the POST solely through electric energy provided after DEPLOYMENT by the permitted, unaltered battery and converted to mechanical energy by the permitted unaltered motors (and associated, appropriate circuitry).

Thus G19 says you cannot transfer electric energy from your minibot battery into your motors until "deployment" is complete...."deployment" is not complete until you are no longer touching your minibot. We're spending quite a bit of time and energy making sure we are no longer touching minibot when the juice starts flowing......have I read too much into this?

Does G22 really mean that after you trip the switch, and your mini comes down, that it cannot touch your hostbot with incurring a penalty?

<G22> HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE‟S MINIBOT once any part of it has climbed above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

Re: Do minibots need to stay at the top of the pole?
 

Suggest you shoot this one to Q and A asap! And share the outcome on CD for those who don't check the Q and A religiously...