Minibot
 

Hypothetically, if one wanted to use a spring-loaded fulcrum to launch their minibot up the tower, would that be legal? Would the minibot then be considered a projectile? Does the minibot have to use a motor?
Would this be considered a safety hazard?
Could this (or a variation of this concept) be legal?
::rtm::

Re: Minibot
 

<G20> ROBOTS/HOSTBOTS may not contact their own TOWERS above the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: PENALTY for contact. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

In my interpretation that would amount to deploying it above the Deployment line.

Re: Minibot
 

Please start by reading the rules.::rtm::

Safety: I'd personally regard this as a major safety violation. You're throwing something of significant mass (15 lbs) up something like 10 feet vertically. If you miss and hit a ref, you can expect not to ever be allowed to use it again--assuming you pass inspection in the first place.
Legality: There is a deployment line on the poles. Contact above that by the robots is prohibited (minibots excepted, but they must be free of the robot--See Game Section 3.1.5 for details). Also <G20> applies.

I don't see any rule that the minibot must use a motor--Game Section 4.3.14--but you'll need to latch on somehow.

Re: Minibot
 

But if the minibot is essentially a projectile, then it wouldn't need to be very heavy, maybe a few pounds max, and if it is latched on well enough, it should be quite safe.

But another thing the think about is whether there is a maximum force which you can hit the target, just in case the target gets broken by the minibot.

Re: Minibot
 

Regarding the comment about it weighing 15 pounds, there is no requirement that it weighs that much. If it was a project alone, it need not weigh very much at all.
I've read the rules, I just was wondering if there was anything further on the subject, and what other's interpretations where.
It says contact with the minibot above the deployment line is not allowed.
Given that there is an eighteen inch space for this spring fulcrum to launch the minibot, there may even be space for sufficient acceleration of this bot.
Further ideas?

Re: Minibot
 

If it misses, it's very dangerous. Then you throw in the deployment line rules.

Poof balls and soccer balls are meant to deform when they hit something or something hits them. If you threw a metal ball of similar weight, it would hurt more. And there is very little padding allowed by the Minibot rules. Imagine a latching device-say 1/2 lb--launched upwards to the target. That's some significant force (must be dealt with on the robot), plus if you miss, you not only have velocity but all the KE you have from the altitude. If you miss and there's a ref or robot right there, they'll probably move out of the way to avoid getting hit--if they can. Now your minibot hits the floor. It better be sturdy, and under <G46> and <G42>, you're liable to penalty as well.

If you miss, and I'm the head ref at the event, I'm probably going to call you on safety, too.

The risk ain't worth it.

Re: Minibot
 

Deploying above the deployment line is not allowed.

If the minibot crosses that projection above the line, no good. If I'm reading the definition right, the launching and the latching would both be parts of deployment, so if you latch higher than the line, no good.

Also see the safety notes I've suggested.

Re: Minibot
 

can we just shoot the mini robot up to the top of the pole or does it have to stay at the top for an amount of time? [i dont have the rules yet :/]

Re: Minibot
 

Those of us that downloaded the encrypted manual haven't been able to find an answer either. Q&A opens on Wednesday, by tradition.

However, I would advise against shooting one, due to reasons I've already discussed.

FYI: after you post, you can edit posts for a certain period of time. The edit button is at the bottom right corner of the post.

Re: Minibot
 

I don't see any rule that requires the MINIBOT to stay at the top of the pole, if that was what your question was.

Re: Minibot
 

how tall is the pole?

Re: Minibot
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephie
can we just shoot the mini robot up to the top of the pole or does it have to stay at the top for an amount of time? [i dont have the rules yet :/]


yes thats what i wanted to know and thanx!!

Re: Minibot
 

From Section 2, about 122 inches up. And, before you ask, depending exactly where you hit it, you'll need about 2-4 N to trip it.

BTW, as Gary pointed out, there is no rule saying that the minibot must stay up. However, the first Update may change that, and if not, the Q&A will probably be asked. In other words, it may or may not stay that way.

Re: Minibot
 

We are very interested in this too. Obviously the minibot would have to be very light to be thrown, and since it appears that the minibot (might) not have to stay at the top of the pole, and that the switch does not take much force to activate, I don't see why it would pose a safety violation...although whether it is legal or not is another question...

Re: Minibot
 

i have a couple of other questions, my team n i dont have the rules yet due to the rest of the world try'n to get the rules all @ the same timeP:

*can we use external power for the minibot?
*what is the pole made out of?
*can you take only one minibot into the arena?
*is there a floor line that leads to the pole so we can line up a minibot?
*can we control the minibot via remote once released from the large robot?

if u can answer these questions for me that would b AWSOME!!!!

Re: Minibot
 

If the minibot is connected to the tower the same way the ones at the kickoff were, but were deployed with the spring system, it would not detach from the tower, therefore eliminating all safety issues. If it is really light, it will not break the top.

Re: Minibot
 

We were debating this, and we raised this question; however, we came to the conclusion that if anything were left at the bottom at all, it would definitely exceed the 12" dimensions on the minibot. Good luck!

EDIT: Just found this in the rules:
<R101> If a MINIBOT is rejected by inspectors due to a safety issue or concern related to the team’s method of storing energy, the concerned items must be disabled or removed from the MINIBOT before it can compete in a MATCH. The team bears the burden of proof that such a rejection is not valid. Teams should be prepared to provide justifiable test data or calculations during inspection to support their design.

Storing energy in the form of pneumatic pressure or a spring to launch it is probably considered, as someone said before, a safety violation

Re: Minibot
 

This is why the encrypted manual is released. It's so that you download it ahead of time and avoid the rush. Guess a lot of people missed that memo this year.

The answers can be found in Game Section 4, Game Section 2, unknown, Game Section 2, and Game Section 3.

In order, No attachment, but there is a battery allowed, Steel, unknown, Yes, Not if you want to get points, and there is a risk of hurting your entire alliance (Short version: If you don't get to the top, the first pole on your alliance is not counted)

Re: Minibot
 

I think the biggest problem with spring loaded minibots are that there are no springs in the FTC KOP.

Re: Minibot
 

Sorry for having so many posts, but I just found a rule that PROHIBITS ANY LAUNCHING MECHANISM WITH STORED ENERGY INCLUDING PNEUMATICS, SPRINGS, AND OTHERS NOT MENTIONED!!!

Re: Minibot
 

Really? Then why are there rules about stored energy devices? (Blue box on <R01>, <R90>)

You should quote or cite any rules that support any conclusions you make.

Re: Minibot
 

I don't see that rule.

The only rules that mention springs, explicitly allow them, unless deemed unsafe.

Re: Minibot
 

In the introduction section of the manual, the definition of DEPLOYMENT is :

"DEPLOYMENT-- the act of positioning a MINIBOT on the TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME."

This seems to say that once it enters the platform, the minibot counts as being deployed if it is "positioned" or attached to the tower somehow. So if you interpret it that way, it means you can't shoot a minibot at the sensor, because it wouldn't get positioned on the tower. Just my $0.02. Someone on my team also suggested popping a little minibot out at the sensor, like a tennis ball machine, and this was my rebuttal.

Re: Minibot
 

If it passes the whole pole up and just merely touches the sensor at the top, is that considered deployment? If it isn't, then won't we able to just launch at the sensor, considering they can withstand the force?

Re: Minibot
 

What if you had a very, very light minibot that was clamped to the tower pole and launched upwards through some spring-based launcher on your hostbot. It would fly upward, connected to the pole, and then contact and trigger the top. Then it would fall back down the pole. Is that legal?

Re: Minibot
 

Quick hint: deployment above the deployment line is strictly illegal. So is intentionally detaching parts from your robot. So is doing unsafe things, quite possibly including launching hard metal/plastic objects 10 feet in the air.

Re: Minibot
 

I think some people are confused. The robot is not launching the minibot from the ground to the top of the pole, merely from the bottom of the poll (after being attached) up to the top. I really don't see how this would be a safety issue and i can't find anything that says the minibot needs to climb the pole under its own power, instead of kinetic energy given to it from the now Hostbot.

Re: Minibot
 

Launching while clamped to the pole would probably be legal.

Practicality, however, depends on whether a) the launching method can get about 4N of force at the top and b) the minibot has to stay at the top or not.

Re: Minibot
 

I hope they allow it. I mean, they probably didn't anticipate this but I hope they see the innovation here and allow. Plus, the way technology is going, we'll have flying parts soon enough anyway. Might as well start now.

Re: Minibot
 

Literally throwing the robot in the air, uncontrolled, is not going to work.

That being said.. :)

Re: Minibot
 

That's not something you want to say. There are a number of folks who saw a major rule change in 2002, when tape measures could not be used for a particular part of the robot until a GDC member saw innovation and allowed the use of tape measures for that part...

...at a competition...

...Making all the people who'd done it right the first time really, really mad.

At this point, it's not clear whether it is or is not legal. I'd figure that by Tuesday or Wednesday, when the first Update comes out, we'll know for certain.

Re: Minibot
 

are servos allowed to be used on the minibot?

Re: Minibot
 

Are they on the list in <R92>? If so, yes. If not, no. ::rtm::

Re: Minibot
 

The following items are the only permitted materials for use on the MINIBOTS:
A. TETRIX components,
B. no more than two motors (PN W739083),
C. exactly one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057)
D. No more than one HiTechnic DC motor controllers,
E. No more than one NXT controller with the Bluetooth functionality disabled,
F. Polycarbonate,
G. Polycarbonate glue,
H. Aluminum sheet, 90° angle, u-channel, tube, bar,
I. rivets,
J. non-metallic rope or cord,
K. wire nuts,
L. cable ties,
M. limit switches,
N. no more than two common household light switches,
O. wire of appropriate gauge (see Rule <R40>),
P. non-slip pad,
Q. PVC or CPVC pipe,
R. PVC cement or cleaner,
S. Mechanical hardware (i.e. screws, bolts, etc) ,
T. Loctite or similar thread-locking product,
U. Rubber bands,
V. Surgical tubing,
W. Electrical tape and shrink tubing,
X. PWM extension cables,
Y. Universal security clips to hold the PWM connectors together,
Z. Hook and loop fastener (may not be used as tape), and
AA. Magnets.

Re: Minibot
 

Hey guys with no rules or video cause site's down, here you go: http://rcrobotics.org/2011-game-manual/
^rules
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSc8FWfJQlU
^animation
:D

Re: Minibot
 

[quote=Duke461;993678]
U. Rubber bands,
V. Surgical tubing,

^Hey guys, those of you asking about springs, you make something like that out of these and I'll give you a medal. :D

Re: Minibot
 

[quote=SashaKuznetsov;993683]Who says the spring mechanism needs to be built into the minibot?

Edit: My team had the exact same idea as the original poster of the thread. If it is legal in any way, i'm sure we (and many other teams) will go for it.

Re: Minibot
 

[quote=Sean Raia;993699]Watch you do, if the spring is still connected to the minibot once it crosses deployment line, you're sunk.

HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE’S MINIBOT once it has climbed above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.

That's a very small window of firing room. You would probably have to put something in place to stop your spring after a point.

Re: Minibot
 

[quote=SashaKuznetsov;993683]Forget that, I'd go for AA. Magnets. That'll be fun to see.

Re: Minibot
 

In the rules, it says we're allowed to use TETRIX parts. Does that include NXT sensors, as they're a part of the FTC BOM? It would make sense, as otherwise the NXT controller would be useless. And if not, what sensors can we use for the minibot?

Re: Minibot
 

"MINIBOT RACE – a competition in which MINIBOTS are DEPLOYED, climb the TOWER, and TRIGGER the TARGET. The MINIBOT RACE begins at the start of the END GAME."

"MINIBOT – an autonomous vehicle designed and built to perform specific tasks when competing in the 2011 competition LogoMotion. The MINIBOT must obviously follow a design approach intended to play the 2011 FRC END GAME and must be compliant with all MINIBOT rules defined in Section 3.4.14."

It's a climbing race using autonomous vehicles. Deployment is "positioning on" the tower/pole. As soon as its positioned, it is autonomous, and applying any momentum from the HOST would violate that. No rule change required in my mind. Seems quite a reach to interpret this as launching inactive mass (whether on the pole or not), and if it (repeatedly, intentionally) falls back down uncontrolled, you'll undoubtedly get flagged/disqualified, if you even pass inspection...

Re: Minibot
 

[quote=Djur;993872]Does this include electromagnets?

If so, maybe people can use the magnets to walk up the pole

Re: Minibot
 

[quote=RandAlThor;994090]Maybe magnetic wheels?

Re: Minibot
 

I believe you can only have 1 minibot.

Re: Minibot
 

Can you cite a rule? I couldn't find one or a combination.

Re: Minibot
 

why would you need sensors other than maybe a touch? as soon as it hits the pole, it should go up autonomously, no?

Re: Minibot
 

See the gossary for ROBOT... ROBOT = HOSTBOT + MINIBOT.

Re: Minibot
 

I think I found the rule that would prevent a spring-loaded minibot. I may be interpreting it wrong though. If the list of parts allowed for the minibot says "C. exactly one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057)" that is exactly one, not up to one. So having a battery on board would defeat the purpose of having a spring-loaded minibot. Just saying.

Re: Minibot
 

So you mean that just using the battery as extra weight (not electrically connected to anything) prevents me from spring-shooting it up the pole?

I do read the Minobot rule C as "Exactly one" - not zero, not two or more, so I must have that battery as part of the robot. I just have not yet found any rule that requires me to draw any energy from that battery.

Re: Minibot
 

OK, that being said:
(Emphasis mine)

This may be controversial, but if I launch a minibot mechanically (e.g. with a spring), is that "uncontrolled motion that cannot be stopped by the drivers"? If so, it is "unsafe" and not allowed.

(Yes, I know that even the 'conventional' minibots shown at kickoff couldn't be stopped either).

Re: Minibot
 

That rules makes every minibot illegal, as a non autonomous minibot is against the rules.

Re: Minibot
 

I didn't mean that you couldn't make a spring-loaded minibot, I was merely remarking upon the paradox of adding dead weight to something that needs to climb (or launch and reach a specific altitude and hit a target with a specific force) fast.

Re: Minibot
 

You can also read that rule as you are permitted to have exactly one battery, or, If we use a battery it must be exactly one of this type.

For the record, there are mechanically autonomous things. For example, certain types of clocks, mousetrap cars, Rube Goldberg machines (in general).

I would suggest that any Minibot attached to the pole is not undergoing uncontrolled motion, unless it's going from top to bottom and back again at extremely high speed. The motion is perfectly constrained and all you need is something to stop it.

Re: Minibot
 

The rules say that you cant use stored energy
also the host bot itself may not deploy the minibot

Re: Minibot
 

:eek: What?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it suddenly has me very worried that I have missed something rather important!

Re: Minibot
 

Does the entire minibot have to climb the pole or can like half go up and the other half stay at the bottom?

NVM, cant grow bigger than the size limit.

Re: Minibot
 

You CAN have more than one minibot. obviously not on the bot at a time but you can have more than one. It is also to allow teams to lend them to other team for coopertition points.

Re: Minibot
 

We were thinking the same thing but we found a rule stating that the minibot must have 1 motor we think it means it must use a motor to get up to the top of the tower:eek:

Re: Minibot
 

Minibots are not required to have any motors at all.

However, climbing the pole legally without at least one of the Tetrix motors is impossible under <G19>. You are allowed 2 Tetrix motors, and no more, on a minibot.

Re: Minibot
 

Here is a short video of our minibot and we would love some positive feedback from anyone that can offer it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZvXsaTXGfI
Thank you from team 2883 F.R.E.D

Re: Minibot
 

Again as stated many times it is important to fully read the rules. <R91> "The MINIBOT may not exceed a 12"x12"x12" volume. Separating would definitely make it larger then 12"