Catapulting minibot
 

Assuming that this is possible to aim/trajectory correctly, is this legal:

Your robot is 30 inches tall (the exact height of the deployment line). Recessed in it, is the minibot, which is catapulted, with whatever method from the robot up to the height of 60 inches, and then continues to the top.

Is this legal?

The reason I ask this, is that I can't find any rule that states that it is not. Although "deploy" is clearly defined, it is never defined that a robot must deploy the minibot in the deployment zone.

<G20> ROBOTS/HOSTBOTS may not contact their own TOWERS above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.
Violation: PENALTY for contact. TOWER is disabled if MINIBOT is DEPLOYED above the
DEPLOYMENT LINE.

But does this mean deployed if it is not touching the robot when it touches the area above the line?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I really can't see this being legal. Its implied that the minibot is an extension of the main robot, and thus must be deployed below the deployment line

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

From section 1

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb).

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Just realized a way to get around that rule. Throw out a string, and detatch it at the bottom of the tower, THEN you catapult out the minibot.

Would that be against the rules?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Is the string part of your HOSTBOT, or part of the MINIBOT?

If part of the HOSTBOT, then you haven't deployed the MINIBOT properly.

If part of the MINIBOT, then the MINIBOT is bigger than 12" ^3.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I'm fairly confident that any free-flying mini-bots will be deemed a safety hazard.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

i would agree with this ....flying projectiles are hard to control and could harm a robot or person also the defenition of deployment says that you must place the minibot on the tower and if you dont deploy the minibot it would not count

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

What if the minibot is wraped around the pole? could you then catapult it? What if the catapult is connected to the Hostbot and rests on the platform?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I thought about this too. Although this type of thing is nearly always (from other similar situations) covered in the first rules update. So, it may just be best to hang on for that.
Although my guess is that is will be disallowed.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Firstly:

Your catapult would have to have a lever that would stop with the top of the minibot below the deployment line, because:

DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)

<G22> HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE’S MINIBOT once it has climbed above the DEPLOYMENT LINE. Violation: TOWER is disabled

So yeah, don't try it.

Also:

When reading these rules, please use technical commonsense (engineering thinking) rather than "lawyering" the interpretation and splitting hairs over the precise wording in an attempt to find loopholes. Try to understand the reasoning behind a rule.

Don't mix up innovation with wanting to beat the system. As long as you understand that, keep ideaing away! :D

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Coupled with the loophole that allows a robot to have multiple minirobots, could you deploy a minirobot that has the sole purpose of shooting another minibot up the pole? (the projectile minibot being a sort of carabiner-like object that latches onto the pole)

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I am not trying to beat the system or anything I just don't see what in the rules prevents you from launching the minibot from the base. You wouldn't have to make your minbot break the plane while touching it, you have 18 inches. I have asked in the Q&A and that will give the official answer. I personally don't think it will be legal, but who knows.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I would imagine that they are going to eventually clarify deployment further and say that it ends when the minibot eventually grabs the tower or hits the top. If that were that case, it would be considered deploying above the deployment line to launch it at all. At least that is the impression I've been getting while I read the rules.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

im pretty sure the reason we cant catapult the minibot is becuase of people like me. my first thought was to strap a small rocket engine on the thing and forget about it. right now im shooting (no pun intended) for building a scaled down air cannon and turning it upside down so the air jetisons the bot into space.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I had a similar idea, but to deploy the minibot legally and then launch it to the top with a spring/pneumatic system of some kind. Nothing in the rules against that XD This is gonna be fun....

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Good luck finding a small air cannon in the FTC kit of parts :P

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

use the pvc pipe to make a barrel and a holding tank. the stuff can take a lot of pressure, so as long as you charged it on the host bot it will be fine. besides my team doesnt feel like putting a hole in the roof of the shop we are using, so it probably wont happen.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

PVC air tanks are prohibited as they are not pneumatic components.

All of you are going about wrong. Store the energy in the minibot...

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

<G26> If at any time a ROBOT'S operation or design is deemed unsafe, the ROBOT will be disabled for the remainder of the MATCH. If the safety violation is due to the ROBOT design, the Head Referee has the option to not allow the ROBOT back onto the FIELD until the design has been corrected. Violation: PENALTY and Disablement

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

What I was wondering was what constituted a robot, and what the minimum definition of a mini-bot was, because if it is just any extension to the robot that can latch onto the pole and/or detach from the robot, then I could just build a little box that houses a lot of pre-tensioned surgical tubing, clipped to the pole with a carabiner or something similar, positioned so that when it detached to released all of the Potential Energy at once, launching the cube upwards at a very high velocity, I could even add a foam layer so that it wouldn't hurt the field. I honestly cant think of a faster way to get from point A to B. and input on the legality of it or the minimum requirements of a mini-bot (i.e. a brain, batteries, motors, ect.) would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

"MINIBOT – an autonomous vehicle designed and built to perform specific tasks when competing in the 2011 competition LogoMotion. The MINIBOT must obviously follow a design approach intended to play the 2011 FRC END GAME and must be compliant with all MINIBOT rules defined in Section 3.4.14. [sic s/b 4.3.14]"

An "autonomous vehicle", not a projectile/wind-up toy. Build a TETRIX robot, or don't bother... My take :)

Also I and others said in other threads, the autonomous requirement kicks in as soon as the minibot is deployed (positioned) on the tower/pole. And, its a climbing race. The Host cannot impart momentum without violating autonomy or the definition of climbing. :cool:

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I still think a small block designed to sling upwards would fit the definition of a MINIBOT. No where in the manual does it state that the MINIBOT must contain electronics, or motors.

And what if our "deployment" is not finished until AFTER we release our surgical tubing/spring?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I completely disagree. Autonomous simply means acting independently. It never says intelligently. Who's to say we even need to use the brick. I saw a team, while judging at the state FLL competition this year, who had their robot hit a lever for a large box. The robot never left the base for this program. Within this box was a spring loaded mechanical arm that placed the bone bridge (I think that's what it was called) exactly in the right location every time. Why build a complicated minibot with an FTC kit instead of just a box that fires itself off.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

"DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME. (Related form, DEPLOY, verb)"

Positioning means locating at a point, not applying force. Once you haver positioned the minibot, it must be autonomous (fully self-controlled) Climbing implies continuous non-sliding contact, as opposed to jumping. sliding. slinging, or flying using a pole as a trajectory constraint/guide.

You probably can use elastic energy stored on the minibot (assuming it passes safety inspection) but I think you will still not be able to just slide along the pole; you need traction of some sort to qualify as climbing IMHO.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I love a good techie debate ;)

Not sure I said "intelligently" anywhere. And I believe it would still be a legal minibot without a brick/brain. I just don't think you will get very far without one if you think about the whole problem (e.g. intentionally free-falling back down after you hit the target is probably gonna get you a flag). And if the mini touches the host after it climbs above the deployment line, that would violate <G22>, so you'd have to pull the host out of the way, which means the minibot would slam into the base. Autonomous means "self-control", not "no control" :cool:

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

the way i read this was that according to this rule:
<G19> After DEPLOYMENT, MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous.
the minibots only have to be autonomous (in my opinion means not being acted upon by other objects such as the hostbot) AFTER deployment. the definition for deployment only definitively states when it starts.
therefore with some more nitpicking of the rules (this is how loop bot, i believe it was team 469, dominated most of last years competition) i came across this rule
<G22> HOSTBOTS may not contact their ALLIANCE’S MINIBOT once it has climbed above the DEPLOYMENT LINE.
these two rules and the shabby definition of deployment lead me to believe that until it gets stated otherwise, one can "shoot" the minibot off of the host bot in endgame
and also i don't see how climbing implies continuous non-sliding contact.
tl;dr i read you can "shoot" minibots up the pole in endgame

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

No part of the rules says this at all.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

and all you need to do in order to pad your landing would be to line the bottom of your robot with surgical tubing. and ya there is no rule against that^^^

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Even if you need to have non-sliding contact, you can just put a wheel on the robot so that it might touch the pole on the way up.

But has anyone done the projectile motion calculations to figure out how hard we have to propel an object upwards in order for it to exert 2-4 newtons at the top?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

True, no rule. I'm just thinking if the mini has enough momentum on the way up to overcome the pole friction and target switch force, you probably have a good bit of mass and so a good bit (even tho probably somewhat less) on the way down. Which might be considered "damaging" to the base. especially if they let everybody do it all the time. Maybe like kornjones said, some well placed padding might save the day...

But its all moot if climbing requires traction, which I'm betting on. The GDC wants a climbing race, not a shoot-em-up-in-the-air, so I think they will either interpret or clarify the existing rules in that direction.

But I could be wrong. That would be oh, 6 or 7 times today... that I know of ;)

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

During our discussions today, 449 reached the somewhat tentative conclusion that as the rules are currently written there is nothing explicitly forbidding a minibot that is launched up the pole as a projectile as long as it clamps to the pole in some way and your robot is no longer touching it when it passes the deployment line (which limits the possible displacement of whatever spring mechanism you use to shoot it), however it is more likely than not the rules will be clarified/revised fairly soon to make this illegal, as it completely bypasses what seems to be the intent of the minibot in the first place (i.e. seeking the help of local FTC teams, unifying the various branches of first, etc).

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

What if to solve the problem of uncontrolled free-fall the minibot had wheels with a ratchet mechanism. The wheels when going up can spin freely, but when going down the wheels are stuck and provide enough friction for a safe fall

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Please, PLEASE don't make design decisions on what you assume the rules meant to be. The Manual is the Manual. Follow the rules, but don't assume FIRST had one robot design in mind.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

It's not a design decision so much as a development strategy - if it's reasonably likely that a certain approach to a game task despite its seeming innate superiority and comparative simplicity to the alternatives will be deemed illegal, then it's good strategy to plan on designing an alternative so that you're not stranded without a mechanism if the rules are changed (or in this case clarified, as arguments can and have already been made that the wording of "positioning" already rules out launchers).

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

There are an awful lot of words being used here which have no definition in the rules, only in the poster's minds. We need to use GDC definitions; where something is not defined it has to be asked in Q&A.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

As a physics teacher the solution seems obvious. Have the HOSTBOT wrap many coils of wire around the steel pole. Clip the MINIBOT, which is basically just an aluminum ring, around the pole and then just run a large AC current through the coils of wire. The MINIBOT shoots up the pole by electromagnetic induction.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

AC Current inside a DC-controlled robot. Is there anything in the Rules against a DC to AC Inverter?

I like the concept. This post gave me a good chuckle:}

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Or since you are allowed polycarb and aluminum plate you can make pretty big capacitor bank to allow the single pulse to push the "Minibot" up the pole. Railgun anyone?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

This is a cool idea.

However, it might run afoul of <G19>, because the ring would not jump autonomously after deployment. See the Manual, Section 1.6 LogoMotion Glossary: DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME.

I'd like to try it in the shop anyway, just for fun. :)

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Oh, I forgot to mention - the MINIBOT would ideally be dipped in liquid nitrogen just before DEPLOYMENT.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

But how exactly would you wrap the coils around the pole?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

FIRST will often often ask you to use accepted definitions, sometimes explicitly in the Q&A. Remember the "active mechanism" fiasco last year? If you apply a more generally accepted definition of autonomous (more than just the context of our "autonomous mode") and then:

• Consider <G19> After DEPLOYMENT, MINIBOTS must remain completely autonomous.
• Consider the definition: DEPLOYMENT – the act of positioning a MINIBOT on a TOWER. DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference during the END GAME.

In a broader sense of the word, something that is pushed is not autonomous. Therefore, if it is pushed after it crosses the platform, it is not acting autonomously during DEPLOYMENT.

I imagine someone will get the GDC to clarify after enough prodding, just like they eventually did for "active mechanism" last year.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Are you serious?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Not even slightly, just having fun. Check out <R92>

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I just so happen to have a tank of liquid nitrogen lying around in the shop! :ahh: XD being a curious person who doesnt know physics, y would u dip it in liquid nitrogen?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Something that is pushed is not autonomous? Have you ever seen a mini-sumo robot competition?

I don't see how the HOSTBOT acting on the MINIBOT with a force external two the MINIBOT creates a condition where the MINIBOT is no longer autonomous. They are separate entities. It says MINIBOTS must remain autonomous. There is no rule regarding interaction from non-autonomous external forces.

Think of a small autonomous robot driving along a table. Say it doesn't stop, and it falls off the edge, because the normal force upward on it is suddenly removed. At no point in this process did the small autonomous robot cease to be autonomous. Say the table it is driving on suddenly raises, before the small robot falls off. The small robot is still autonomous.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

I'm talking about autonomy in the broader sense, not strictly the robot sense.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

What about:

It is true that this rule deals mostly with removing sharp edges, but it does say that projectiles are a danger, and should be removed. And this rule would at least put a mini-bot/projectile under heavy inspection for dangers to the ARENA, GAME PIECES or people.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

This could possibly be interpreted as "rules lawyering" but if the minibot deployment device deployed from the side or rear then it would not be subject to that rule. Also, I think by projectiles they mean free-flying ones, so if your minibot latches onto the pole before it is launched then it would not be subject.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

Wasn't there a post not 10 posts ago saying to stick to the GDC's definition of words rather than what you think the words imply?

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

The GDC (rightly) does not define every word, only those which are new or used in a novel or unique manner in the manual. It becomes a never-ending process, as all definitions must at some point rely on (agreed-upon) undefined words.

I doubt they will ever define "autonomous", "position", and other commonly used words except indirectly through elaboration of other rule details. For example, I think rules questions are most often answered by clarifying the GDC interpretation in the Q&A, much less often by introducing new/changed definitions or rules.

Interpretation is unavoidable; the goal should be to get at the underlying motivation/spirit of the game designers intentions. Here, I think their goal is to have a standard race of traditional autonomous robots with start/finish lines and a starting gun; violate that spirit and you'll probably get a negative ruling. Proceed with that spirit over the next few days until clarifications come out, and it will probably be time well spent. If it turns out to be something very much different, we would all be justified in claiming to be highly misled.

Re: Catapulting minibot
 

This is the only definition we have. We don't yet know whether the "act of positioning" can include any upward impetus. I certainly hope it can - because I would hate to have to decide whether your robot did or didn't position the robot exactly parallel to the ground.