2007 in relation to 2011
 

The main part of this years game, picking up intertubes and placing them on pegs, is very similar to the game in 2007(I know there are minor differences but I do not want to discuss them in this thread). I think it would be useful to look back at 2007 for strategies for picking up and placing the intertubes that worked well back then. Because I was in 8th grade in 2007 and not involved in robotics, I was looking for advice from veterans on what did and didn't work in '07. Pictures and videos would also be great. Thanks so much!

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

There are several videos on YouTube. We watched during our design meeting today. As well as our personal videos.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

The big difference is you have to fight for your right to place tubes on the rack which also shakes all over the place. This is a static goal with no defensive interference to keep you from placing tubes on the rack (you can stop them from getting there but the more effort you put into stopping the other teams from scoring the less you yourself score. It may not work).

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

While learning from the similarities is all well and good, don't forget to pay attention to the differences either as you proceed with your design/build/engineering processes.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

maybe they ran out of ideas, so they just said, "hey lets just do this game again, wait we cant, well just make it use the logo for intertoobs, THATS BRILIANT!":ahh:

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Full wrap bumpers, the 60" cylinder rule and a 9.5" high goal make significant differences.

That all aside, a thorough review of 2007 video will be invaluable.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Mechanically, 2007 is a great source of inspiration. Strategically, there's a different game I'm looking at.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

This thread may be helpful for tracking down robots good at tube handling in '07:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ight=best+tube

I'll second Josh's suggestion to be careful. Some teams saw similarities between '06 and '09 that led them to abandon floor loading which turned out to be a major part of the game.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

There's the other quick, but incredibly important difference, in that those teams who picked up tubes in 2007 (most) might find it significantly more challenging to find a quick fix to picking up these tubes. Different diameter and different thickness for the variety of tubes will make it a bit more challenging to find that "all-in-one" solution

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

in 07 most of the best robots went for the bottom and occasionally the middle wrung, rarely the top.

in 11 the top wrung is worth 3x the bottom wrung, also autonomous scoring has different values for each wrung. I expect to see many more top hangers this year.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Offense is defense in this game. As you score more tubes, you block the other team's vision. Camera's could help but the camera that came in last year's kit of parts was too buggy.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Very true. I think some of the grabbers are good platforms, but with three different objects to pick up, it will make it harder. I am using 2007 robots as platforms to explain designs/concepts to our students since they don't know many of the concepts we speak of.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

You score in front of your own drivers station, blocking your own vision.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Offense was defense in the 07 game. It was an inherently defensive game (as I argued back in 07) and every game since has promoted offense. Since the tube scoring was exponential (tubes were scored 2^<number of tubes in a row>) you could easily block opponent's rows with your tubes. So if you put up 2 tubes in the same row on opposite ends of the rack, your opponents can only make rows of 3 for 8pts.

This new game has plenty of rules to limit defense. About 15% of the playing field (the most important scoring areas) is a effectively a "No Defense Zone". We will still see defense but the drivers will have to be careful to avoid penalties, especially the "Pinning 30pt Death Sentence":ahh:

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

One major difference in 2010 is the ability to hop between safe zones. In 2007 it looked like a robot could block you from having the time to pick up a tube while in 2010 you got two guaranteed lanes. And your robot doesn't necessarily need to be able to pick up tubes from the ground.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

It kind of is a hard thing to think about. When you score, should you score on yourself, or in front of your alliance Who know you had to be graciously professional to your own teammates!

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

In 07 there was a (infrequently used) Loading Slot, where the Human Player could feed a tube to a bot. The only difference was the slot was in a vertical orientation as opposed to the horizontal orientation this year.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Which makes it exponentially easier to human load through the given slot this year than 2007 IMO. Though somehow certain teams found ways to human load without using it... ;)

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Okay, I think people got a little bit off track. If you read the original thread, you would know that I didn't want this to be a discussion of every minute difference between the 2011 and 2007 games. I was looking for tube manipulator designs that worked well. One guy at the begining had the right idea with a link about 2007 bots. That guy is awesome, I really don't care about the rest of you.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

While it's entirely possible that we did get off track, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss everyone aside from the "one guy at the beginning." There's good lessons to be learned.

If you have the chance, I recommend trying to track down a copy of the 2007 FIRST Behind the Design book.

Also, here's a few teams that I'd recommend checking out from that year. There are many many other very successful teams, but these are some that I remember the best.
71
111
233
469

And also, the videos from Einstein that year.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Thank You! And sorry if I came off a little harsh, it's been a long day...

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

the FIRST Behind the Design book people are talking about can be found on Google books for a free quick glancethrough

This was exactly the first thing that popped into my head when i saw this years game.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

yes you do score in front of yourself. but if you score in the high positions, you do not block vision (especially if your drive team is short)...

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Not every robot needs a change to fit in under 60". :)

And, elevators don't need to be complicated, a 2x4, a cut up belt, and a pulley are all you need to get started.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

don't forget, the scoring on the middle row will obstruct your view; making the bottom row hard to score on. the top row, although valuable, will be hard to get, especially with a good defensive robot against you.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

i believe you block your own, since your human player is across the field (not with you)

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

I immediately thought of Rack 'n' Roll when I saw the field at Kick-off. :eek:

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

Mechanically the rack has another big difference.

The plates which terminate the scoring rods are MUCH smaller than the big 5" plates in the 2007 game
They are 2.75 inch diameter disks.

It will be quite a bit easier to bump a tube off by mistake.... and if you expect to place a tube by pulling back and reacting with the plate (as many teams did in 2007) ... you will pull the tube right over that small plate. (It's radius is only 1 3/8") not much for the tube to react against.

Tubes will have to be dropped on to the rods... and then the mechanism will have to be removed with great finess...

Another big difference is the direction of scoring. MOST scoring in 2007 was done directly in front of the driver's station ...and the tubes were loaded from the same direction...

This year.... long field... tubes enter the field from entire opposite end of field.

Definite similarities but large, subtle and not so subtle differences in game play.

I think the game dynamics will be quite a bit different...I can see robots that are scorers playing defense while a team mate shuttles the objects to them...

last 30 seconds or so will be dominated by minibots... so relatively short 1:30 time to put tubes up...

I like the mix of autonomous points and a later effect from autonomous...in points...

auto is BIG deal...good autos will win these games...at least at St. Louis

Autonomous in 2007 was marginal... fun to watch... but really didn't make much of a difference in the end...

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

No STINGER, either (that little black rubber piece).

Also, in 2007 the plates were mounted so the PVC rod was at the bottom. Are they mounted the same way this year, or are they centered on the rod?

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

They are mounted the same way. The drawings show that the endcap edge is tangent to the horizontal rod at the bottom.

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

While everyone makes very valued points to and for the difference between the game there isn't very much difference between the games... Like several others have said previously in this thread.... It would probably be a VERY good idea to research past strategies.... The concepts are rather close. Now you may or may not agree, but as one of my team's main builders... I myself think this could really work in our favor! So yeah, Good luck to all!!!!

Re: 2007 in relation to 2011
 

It will be interesting to see how things play out over the season. While we will be scoring "tubes" like in '07, I see some major differences.

For one, the drivers will have to be very good at driving "toward themselves," and they will have to deal with poor visibility of the scoring pegs, especially after the middle row starts to get filled up.

Also, there will be a lot of head-to-head traffic on the field, with high speed head-on collisions between both opponents and partners. Maybe drivers will tend to "keep right" when approaching another machine head-on, or maybe not. There will be defense in front of the walls, and against robots carrying tubes from their lanes, but I'd expect than in most matches, two robots on each alliance will be trying to score tubes, and will be traversing the field multiple times at high speed.