How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Unless a team plans on relying on others dropping game pieces, it will be necessary to go all the way across the field to get pieces from the HPs and then go all the way back over to score them at the alliance wall. So how many times do you think teams will be able to go back and forth to complete a round trip during a match???

My guess is 5 in a two minute practice period, but in-game I think 3 would be most realistic and 4 would be and good match.

My reason being about 10 fps on average so about 6 seconds for going across the field each way(12).

Then it will never be a straight shot b/c you go from center to corner and back. So I estimate an extra 5 seconds total (5).

Then a team must retrieve the game pieces and probably possess them somehow, 3 seconds a rough average, maybe 1 for those elite teams (3)?

Then teams must also place the pieces which I could see the elite teams doing in 2 seconds, but the average being about 7, but the extra time can be built into other teams trying to pin the elite teams (7).

12 + 5 + 3 + 7 = 27 seconds for a trip...

which works out to 4 remainder 12 seconds left. So if we consider an elite team and they have a great match, I'd say 4 and then time for Minibot action (if that is their strategy). Although I think most teams will land in either 3 trips in a good match, 2 in a poor/well defended match, and many may find themselves making tradeoffs to either complete a logo or go for the minibot at the very end.

Of course, this time-task analysis is all considering that other teams aren't conveniently dropping tubes, but it can reveal a lot about what an individual robot can realistically accomplish on its own in a single teleop. Or maybe that a viable strategy is to have one robot shuttle/ferry pieces from the feeder to the alliance zone to facilitate "hangers".

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

I would say at most 18, since thats how many game pieces there are.

You also have to remember that Woodie said (and the manual confirmed) game pieces can be thrown over the driver station wall.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

You also discount defenders, and robots that are capable of "throwing" pieces.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

To me it seems more optimal to have 2 shuttles, assuming the robot will be fast enough that it can evade a single robot, then if you are double teamed there would be another shuttle to run pieces to the hanger.

I am confident this will get in at least I don't know 5-6 trips in? Maybe 9 if its a good game.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Lets see:

At our max speed of 16 fps, so 3.75s across the field ideally (Using 60 feet across the field)

Plus interaction with other robots (probably 5 seconds on average)

Plus picking up the game piece (4 realistically)

Plus Driving back

Plus Placing the piece (Hopefully 3 sec?)

Does 24 seconds sound good? These are realistic, average values also. Nothing for best and worst match yet...

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

What we need to figure out is how much interference a defending robot can create. If its around 5 seconds each one way, then that lowers a robot's efficiency by almost 30%.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

As posted on my teams forums earlier by a team member:


A few thoughts:

To get a perfect score, each team on the alliance would need to get and place a tube every 18 seconds (assuming 15 seconds at the end for minibot missions).

If you look at each robot placing a tube every 29 seconds, the best raw score is a 28 (6 hi, 5 medium)

In our human player simulations, the best match we turned in was 9 tubes. ( 9 tubes is each alliance robot placing a tube every 35 seconds). The best raw score for 9 tubes is 24 (6 hi, 3 medium).

If we can't do a high placement, the best score we can achieve in teleop mode with 9 tubes is 15 (6 med, 3 lo). This is the same score as placing 5 tubes, all hi. at 63 seconds per tube.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Human players can throw over the player station.
<G57> During the TELEOPERATED PERIOD, FEEDERS may enter LOGO PIECES onto the FIELD by using the FEEDING SLOTS or by throwing the LOGO PIECE over the top of the FEEDER STATION wall. LOGO PIECES may not be thrown around the side of the FEEDER STATION wall. Violation: PENALTY

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Yea. I kinda wish this rule wasn't there, but it is.

This allows for teams to pick up from the floor, not needing to always to head to the player station...but the biggest thing is that this will lead to Redabots stealing the thrown tubes from the Blueabot human player. Risky move, but it will help cut down on time.

Human players will have to train in throwing techniques so they don't accidentally throw a tube into the opponent's scoring zone. That would be very bad.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Also, will the tubes be placed back into the field of play where exited?

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Yes, see <G35>

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

I think there's an additional benefit of a smaller time frame of your opponents can be alerted to your attempt to receive a logo tube. This probably requires your feeder to be able to not just accurately throw but to be able to time. Hopefully teams will be able to provide a rough estimate of how their robot can go so the feeder will be able to time no matter what robot it is.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

You might want to double check your math... specifically, with regards to <G66>:

With that rule, the point values can be a lot higher... and that's what most teams will attempt while placing their tubes.

Also, don't forget the Ubertubes! In addition to scoring points for themselves, they score points for anything placed over them, per <G65>

So, if we take your best case scenario above:
Add 3 Ubertubes to the top row and line up the logo's 3 times, you'll end up with a total of 82 points!


The question posed in this thread is a very important one. The number of tubes placed has a huge impact on what portion of the game is most important. Placing a minibot can score up to 30 points... in order for a single robot (with no help from its alliance members at all) to get that, it has to place an uber tube and 3 regular tubes that form a logo, all on the top row.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

> You might want to double check your math... specifically, with regards to <G66>:


Please note that the original calculation was a "Raw" teleop score, without adjustments made by Ubertubes or making logos.

Of course those increase the total score (the Adjusted teleop score), but they seem to do so in a linear fashion with respect to placing tubes on the top, middle, or bottom.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Is it legal to put more than one logo on a row? If it is, this math makes sense. If not, then 36 is the max you could score on the top row. Which is it?

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Let me start with my assumptions:

• A team will only use 110 seconds of the teleop period to score tubes, the remaining 10 seconds will be used for The Great Race.
• There is a total fixed cost of 10 seconds per lap for loading at the feeder station and dumping onto the Scoring Peg.
• All robots can place Ubertubes and logos on the top peg.
• The total travel distance each way is 50' out of the 54' of the arena.
• This exercise assumes all three bots on an alliance are the same and can achieve all aspects of the game.
• Minibot points aren't factored in any way.

Now onto the findings:
To get 1 logo piece robot must move at 1.00 ft/sec. Max Alliance Score: 54
To get 2 logo pieces robot must move at 2.22 ft/sec. Max Alliance Score: 72
To get 3 logo pieces robot must move at 3.75 ft/sec. Max Alliance Score: 84
To get 4 logo pieces robot must move at 5.71 ft/sec. Max Alliance Score: 96
To get 5 logo pieces robot must move at 8.33 ft/sec. Max Alliance Score: 102
To get 6 logo pieces robot must move at 12.00 ft/sec. Max Alliance Score: 108

Just for grins to get more than 6 (making up for other bots):
To get 7 logo pieces robot must move at 17.50 ft/sec.
To get 8 logo pieces robot must move at 26.67 ft/sec.
To get 9 logo pieces robot must move at 45.00 ft/sec.
To get 10 logo pieces robot must move at 100.00 ft/sec.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Only one logo a row.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Don't forget that for tank driver robots, you have to go through a tricky turning process when you enter the lanes.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Yes, but you also have to include the Ubertubes hanging underneath. The max points for the top row would be 54.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

This is discussed in this thread.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

if the pieces are thrown however, what stops the other alliance from stealing them? and if you plan on throwing them onto the robot somehow, don't forget that pool tubes aren't exactly aerodynamic, are they?

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

So it all basically comes back to how many round trips can you (I hesitate to use this word...) realistically make in 2 minutes?

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Yeah, they'll just float down to sit basically in the other alliance's scoring zone. Unless you can find a way to almost frisbee-throw them into the middle of the field, where it would be a free-for-all to take them...

Out of curiousity, what happens if two robots grab the same game piece at the same time?

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

I'm going to guess you weren't around for the 2007 game. It is possible to throw a round intertube pretty far reliably, I know our human player threw at least 1 onto the rack and if I recall correctly at least 1 if not more into an opponents zone.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

Wouldn't the opponent alliance's scoring rack get in the way though? Unless people are really good at throwing over the wall and avoid hitting the scoring racks and poles...

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

That is a good point and may be true. My biggest point is to be careful with assumptions.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

You cannot stack the tubes (doing so will just make the outermost tube count) with the exception of the ubertube, which is a x2 multiplier.
Check our team's score calculator if you have any questions - the updated version (post #3) correctly accounts for ubertube placement and teleop peg score.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

I believe the drivers and feeders must know their abilities alongside with the robots and develop a strategy (to be able to predict what tube to prepare usually) so it is possible, kind of like American football, to "catch" a pass and eliminate possibility of an interception.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

It seems that if you want to throw you will probably have to practice throwing the tubes prior to the competitions...

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

One of the first things we did was take the tubes into a large room and see how far we could throw them, and we averaged about 25-30ft.

Cutting travel time by 1/3 might mean significantly higher scoring, even with the risk of losing tubes to the other team, but effectively throwing and catching the tubes is a challenge. Thoughts?

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

That's great. Did you take into consideration the barriers?

Oh without a doubt

Practice? Testing? Both, for a significant amount of time? Well-trained drivers?

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

I can see throwing being a good strategy when:
-You can throw it at least halfway downfield
-Your alliance has a robot herding game pieces constantly into your own zone to place them where the opponents cannot get them
-Your robot has a far superior possession mechanism when compared to the opposing alliances (eg faster turn around time retrieving pieces).

However, if the HPs make a single mistake throwing one game piece that falls into the other alliances safe zone, it could wipe out all of the gains of throwing a bunch of pieces across the center line the whole game.

Re: How Many Round Trips Can a Team Make?
 

The danger of accidentally throwing a tube into the opponent's scoring zone can be easily mitigated. Just slot your tube halfway through the feeder station and punch it as hard as you can; it should go 20+ feet. Gotta make sure your fist doesn't enter the field, though.