Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Don't forget there are at least two other degrees of freedom here... the end effector could extend over the wide dimension of the bot (i.e. wide drive profile), and the bot frame can be smaller than 28 by 38...

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Could the original drawing be modified to contain a typical game piece? Beginning to look very dicey for pickup off the carpet. also for extension to get to a peg. They are 14" (?) so effector would not be able to slide anything very far onto one? Five feet never seemed so cramped until now.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Elgin,

There really is no issue. I just wanted people to be aware of this rule and its design implications. I understand the rule's intent, but its side effect is a really brutal constraint that I want to make sure people understand.

The other point is the metric dimension does not agree with the English dimension. That needs to be fixed.

Paul

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Exactly Paul,
The challenge is what it is and we will deal with it but the community needs to spread the word or there will be an inspection nightmare at regionals.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Inspection for compliance with the maximum playing configuration diameter should not be difficult -- a tape line on the floor 60" (or 84"?) from a vertical wall should be an adequate gauge, to determine if a robot COULD exceed the limit.

However, as in previous games where such a limit was part of the rules, it will be up to referees to determine when a robot DOES exceed the limit. (See <G40>.)

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

It's not that it will be difficult to inspect it's the fact that teams won't understand it and build a robot that won't work in the 60" rule.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

You are right.

I hope the clarification comes soon.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Especially those that follow the metric rule. :yikes:

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

There just went most arm designs! That is what the issue is. :rolleyes: Another year, another funny rule.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

As was said, getting the word out about this is going to be important. I just sent an email to the mailing list of local teams, particularly because we have a few new teams and a number of existing teams with all new mentors. Whatever we can do to make sure people know the correct rule will be important.

As a side benefit, this nicely illustrates the need to carefully read the manual and to pay attention to FIRST email updates and the Q&A forum.

Paul, thanks for catching this! I never even paid attention to the metric dimensions (note to self, don't make that mistake again), and spent hours this weekend wracking my brain for ways to avoid violating the 60" rule. I told a couple of kids their (very creative) arm design was not going to work. Hopefully I can tell them later this week it is back on the table.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

If memory serves me right, in 2008 the inspectors at some events, if not all, used a large hoop to determine that the robot stayed with in the correct operating volume. Considering how quickly the process went, I would imagine that FIRST would use the same system this year.

That being said, the clarification on this rule will be the deciding factor between or two prospective manipulator designs... I hope it comes soon.

Re: 60" Rule (Rule <R11>)
 

AS we all are Paul. Guess the GDC may need to get new calculators.

David

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Yet another implication of this rule is that many/most teams are going to need to retract whatever manipulator they have before DEPLOYING the MINIBOT, else they'll be in violation of the rule.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Here is a quick pdf of a power point slide (my favorite design tool :) ).

Assuming the rule is 60" and the metric equivalent:

For a "long" oriented robot any arm can only extend about 18" from the front of the robot (not simply 22 = 60 - 38, due to the "cylinder").

For a "wide" oriented robot, any arm can only extend about 23" (again, not simply 32" = 60-28).

Add the bumpers and it is even more of a challenge.

Re: <R11> Dimension wrong?
 

Unlike previous years' cylinder rules, the BUMPERS are excluded from the measurement this year - thank goodness if the measurement is really 60 inches. See <R11-B>.