capping the tower
 

I was curious if people think capping a tower with a tube would be legal or not.

Re: capping the tower
 

Are you asking if a tube gets tossed from the human player position and it accidently gets hooked around the tower? Or are you asking if you can cap it intentionally?

Re: capping the tower
 

<G23> Contact (via ROBOT or GAME PIECE) with the opposing ALLIANCE’S TOWERS is
prohibited.
Violation: RED CARD

Re: capping the tower
 

That rule is in the End Game section.

Re: capping the tower
 

my bad. i dont see anything against it, but that would be really hard and they still would have (18) minus (laying sideways height of tube) inches for deployment room. and if you put a bunch over their tower actually scoring them would benefit you more.

Re: capping the tower
 

Intentionally. Basically it comes down to are whether or not actions done in the teleop period applicable to penalties in the endgame period

Re: capping the tower
 

I don't believe there is any rule governing it.

Before we go any further, is there a why behind this?

Re: capping the tower
 

Assuming your minibot is 12" big you would have a 6" window to place it, also you couldn't place it on the base, which may be some teams strategies. blocking a potential 50 points would have drastic implications

Re: capping the tower
 

I don't think it would have any effect other than blocking the lights on the top and annoying the field crew who has to retrieve the tube that's now >10' in the air. And keeping a tube out of play.

Is it possible to do? I think so. But I also think that risk/reward just ain't in favor of doing so.

I'd personally (and I'm not a ref) call putting a tube over the tower as intentionally blocking deployment via pole contact, if it made it to the bottom. That's not a light penalty, either.

Re: capping the tower
 

Sounds like a good question for the Q&A!

Re: capping the tower
 

<G23> covers opposing towers, and (unless it's within the last 10 seconds) you can't break the plane of the base of the tower without penalty (can't find that rule, but it was specifically called out at kickoff).

Re: capping the tower
 

The round tubes have a diameter of 12" and are flexible, the disks at the top of the poll are 12" too. This means that potentially the disk could fall down the to the bottom.

Re: capping the tower
 

I think breaking the plane classifies as deployment which would be covered in the rule. However I think this only applies to breaking the plane in your tower.

Also G23 is only covered by the end game, not the teleop period.

Re: capping the tower
 

Read the rest of the post.

1) Field reset will want to do mean things to you. They have to remove the tubes.
2) If I were the head ref, I'd see intentional blocking. Boom, red card. See that blue box below <G24>? It's not a rule, but it does say something about throwing tubes at minibots climbing. I'd figure on that being enough to pull the card; you are interfering with deployment.

Re: capping the tower
 

Right, but the action took place during teleop, and this is the big question I have, if you do something during telelop can you be penalized for it during the end game.

if it was done, i'd assume the same rule for minibot would apply, you got them on, you have to get them off.

Re: capping the tower
 

If I pin your robot at the end of teleop, can the penalty be called in the endgame?

If you do something during teleop and you can't be called for that action in the endgame, boy will there be a lot of pins when the lights start flashing.

It's a deliberate action taken to prevent a minibot from climbing. The rule does not say, In the End Game, you can't interfere with deployment/climbing. It says, You can't interfere, with no time limit given. So if I slam an Ubertube over your post's target autonomously, and it interferes with minibot deployment (which it probably will), and I don't get a red card, you're going to be in the question box explaining to the ref that you couldn't deploy because I slammed an Ubertube over your target. (In that case, I'd also get a penalty. But I might view the penalty as minor compared to the race points.)

Deliberate interference=red card.

Re: capping the tower
 

RE: SteveGpage. Human player may only offer robot a tube via the designated slot. It can't be tossed into the arena over the player station.

Re: capping the tower
 

I understand where you're coming from, and I know that the volunteers put in a lot of work at competitions (I've been one of them), but if there is are no rules specifically saying you can't do something, and there is not an update to change that rule, it really doesn't matter what the field reset people think or not. My team is not going to design a robot based on what the field reset people think about what work will be required of them, we are going to design it to win the competition within the spirit and written word of the rules.

Obviously safety does play a big factor into this kind of thing, but if this is foreseen an update should clarify it if the GDC does indeed to believe it to be a safety issue. Otherwise the field reset people should have a ladder.

Also, I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with this idea (which I do think is a good idea, if it proves legal) but discussing this specific point.

Re: capping the tower
 

I'm tired of quoting the manual for today so all I will say is "Try again".

Re: capping the tower
 

RTFM! Read the FIRST manual! :)

Re: capping the tower
 

See <G57>

Re: capping the tower
 

Haha. thanks for clarifying, that was awesome.

Re: capping the tower
 

Eric was a volunteer. Field reset people are volunteers. You were a volunteer. The head ref is a volunteer. We are all humans. We all read the rules, we all interpret the rules. I'm with Eric. I don't see this as being legal. And I also see it as making the field reset people mad. Who aren't exactly going to be willing to give you a sort bit longer to mess with your robot, if you're the reason they have to wrestle this tube off the tower every match.

Re: capping the tower
 

<G48>?
Strategies aimed at the... entanglement of... MINIBOTS... are not allowed... Violation: PENALTY, plus potential... YELLOW CARD

Re: capping the tower
 

note the title of the section: "Robot-Robot Interaction"

*Section 3.1.9 GO 319! :)

Re: capping the tower
 

Another issue here is the definition of deployment "the act of positioning a minibot on the tower"

Well, if interfering with deployment could be considered as interfering from a robot getting in position to position the minibot on the tower.

Re: capping the tower
 

Just an observation...

Legal or not, the tower for your opponents team is not the closest to the feeder, but the farthest. The plausibility of accurately throwing an innertube that far and that high seems doubtful.

As to the rule, I seriously doubt that they would like it if you stuck an innertube over a <10ft high pole. getting it off would be a nightmare. That being said, as previously mentioned, the rule <G48> is under robot-robot interactions, not human-robot. As much as I would like it to, that doesn't seem to apply.

HOWEVER,

Even though this is under the end game section, in the blue box, it clarifies that which does not stipulate a time period. So my overall guess is no.

Re: capping the tower
 

There's a little something called sportsmanship and Gracious Professionalism. While they may not be official rules, they are a core part of the game.

The intent of the rules is to prevent interference to minibots attempting to climb the tower.

Re: capping the tower
 

Rules <G18> to <G25> apply only to the End Game. That includes the box explaining <G24>.

Pinning <G50> is in the Robot-to-Robot interaction rules section; it applies the entire match.

The only thing that could vaguely apply here is the "strategy aimed at ... entanglement" in <G48>, and then only if you consider the game piece to be an extension of the robot. The use of game pieces in <G23> and <G24> do not necessarily consider them to be extensions of the robot. Those rules also prohibit interference by thrown game pieces. Since <G48> is a robot-to-robot rule, it would not cover thrown pieces - good luck throwing them that far.

I would consider this to be a legal (although not fair) strategy, unless the GDC changes a rule or gives a Q&A response that basically says, "No, you can't do it; the rules say so."

Re: capping the tower
 

The "fairness" of almost every innovative bot is debated almost every year.

Take 469 in 2010 as the prime example.

When the box is broken some of the greatest innovations occur.

Re: capping the tower
 

If you are going to spend all that time reaching this high: http://www.flickr.com/photos/58037296@N02/5336971203/

... you might as well put all that energy into an effective scoring machine and go from *blocking* the best to being the best.

*Depending on whether or not it is legal*

Re: capping the tower
 

Getting it off would be a piece of cake. A couple of swipes with a box cutter and away it goes.

Re: capping the tower
 

The difference between the top of the pole and the highest goal isn't that much. So if you design a robot to cap the pole, naturally they can cap the highest goal.

Also Bob has mad ups, we had 12' of reach in 04. :)

Re: capping the tower
 

Except 469 didn't break any rules, and these designs apparently do. Big difference.

Re: capping the tower
 

We simply don't know right now if it is legal or not, similar to 469. So as of right now, there is no difference.

Re: capping the tower
 

Has anyone actually tried to put a tube over the sensor on the end of the tower?? We built a field for kickoff, and while I haven't tried doing it, I would bet the triangle and square don't fit. The circle might, however it would still require some pretty accurate placement.

-Brando

Re: capping the tower
 

They don't, but those uncapped ubertubes might have a use after all. As i said before, the diameters are almost identical, so it would be very tough.

We won't be attempting to accomplish it, we have another surprise up our sleeves