Re: Stabilizer legs
 

I agree with this conclusion. let's hope the GDC is on the same page... :)

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

Gary,
I know this is confusing but the FRAME PERIMETER doesn't change, even with PLAYING CONFIGURATION. The FP sets the robot size for sizing, and therefore the STARTING CONFIGURATION. It also sets the inside perimeter of the robot where the bumpers are mounted.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

Al, I know that's what it is, but I don't know anywhere that says that.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

Not much room to work with, but the bumper zone is one inch above the floor. I already sketched out a mechanism with tiny wheels that would extend under the BZ in the direction of a deploying arm as a stabilizer. As the arm comes back into the FP upward projection the stabilizer retracts also. Nice to think about, but it's looking too complex for 5.5 weeks, durn it. If you want my drawings LMK.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

Gary, I am working from these definitions in Section 01,
FRAME PERIMETER – the polygon defined by the outer-most set of exterior vertices on the HOSTBOT (without the BUMPERS attached) that are within the BUMPER ZONE.
To determine the FRAME PERIMETER, wrap a piece of string around the HOSTBOT at the level of the BUMPER ZONE - the string describes this polygon.
Note: to permit a simplified definition of the FRAME PERIMETER and encourage a tight, robust connection between the BUMPERS and the FRAME PERIMETER, minor protrusions such as bolt heads, fastener ends, rivets, etc are excluded from the determination of the FRAME PERIMETER.

PLAYING CONFIGURATION – one of any of an infinite number of postures a ROBOT may take once the MATCH has begun.

STARTING CONFIGURATION – the physical configuration and orientation of the ROBOT when the MATCH is started. This is the state of the ROBOT immediately before being enabled by the Field Management System, before the ROBOT takes any actions, deploys any mechanisms, or moves away from the starting location. This configuration is static, and does not change during a single MATCH (although it may change from MATCH to MATCH).

And these rules in Section 4,
<R11> During the MATCH, the ROBOT may not exceed the volume constraints of either STARTING or PLAYING CONFIGURATIONS (note: these limits are defined in reference to the ROBOT, not the FIELD).
STARTING CONFIGURATION
Maximum Horizontal Dimensions 28” x 38” (71.12cm x 96.52cm) rectangular space
Maximum Height 60” (152.40cm)

<R12> The FRAME PERIMETER must be comprised of fixed, non-articulated structural elements of the ROBOT.

<R14> When a ROBOT is in its STARTING CONFIGURATION, no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER.

As I said, confusing...

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

FRAME PERIMETER – the polygon defined by the outer-most set of exterior vertices on the HOSTBOT (without the BUMPERS attached) that are within the BUMPER ZONE.

<R12> The FRAME PERIMETER must be comprised of fixed, non-articulated structural elements of the ROBOT.

These two statements are in the manual. No problem there.

But I agree with Gary's observation that they prohibit any part of the ROBOT from entering the BUMPER ZONE outside the bumpers. By a strict reading of the rules, arms or stabilizing legs that reach through the BUMPER ZONE to reach the floor are illegal.

His suggestion of defining the FRAME PERIMETER based on the STARTING CONFIGURATION makes perfect sense to me. May it make sense to the GDC as well.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

Correct, that was my point.

As soon as you put your stablizer leg, or your tube scooper, outside the FRAME PERIMETER (by definition that's in the BUMPER ZONE), you have established a new FRAME PERIMETER. It should be surrounded by properly constructed and supported BUMPERS. Then when you raise your appendage, the BUMPERS should go away. But BUMPERS aren't allowed to move.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

There is also the issue that robots may not change in height (will quote rule if objections). If not, bumpers at least won't have greater than 1 inch to move.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

Robots may change in height; that's how they get to the top row of pegs. Bumpers, on the other hand, can't go outside the bumper zone (which is fixed). If there is a rule saying that the robot can't change height, the GDC is going to be "asked" about that one, to put it politely.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

I actually have a question about the pole itself. Is the pole painted? If it is, what kind of paint would be used? It would help to know this when the minibot is trying to climb it.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

::rtm:: See Game Section 2.2.5, third paragraph. There is a non-steel coloration, but it's not paint. The surface should be the same all the way up.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

OK,
I think I see now. The BUMPER ZONE is the area in which the bumpers must be mounted, i.e. somewhere between 1" and 7" above the floor. The bumper size is defined by the backing, pool noodles and coverings plus 1/4" for boltheads, welds, etc. However there is this other definition...
BUMPER PERIMETER – the polygon defined by the outer-most set of exterior vertices of the BUMPERS when they are attached to the HOSTBOT. (To identify the BUMPER PERIMETER, wrap a string around the BUMPERS at the level of the BUMPER ZONE - the string describes the polygon.)

And that is further referenced by
<G48> Strategies aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of ROBOTS, MINIBOTS, or HOSTBOTS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed. Contact with another ROBOT or HOSTBOT inside it’s FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed. Violation: PENALTY, plus potential disablement and YELLOW CARD
High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LogoMotion. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for incidental contact with such extended mechanisms. For example, use of wedge-like mechanisms to flip ROBOTS would be considered a violation.
Sorry that I did not include this earlier. Is that making sense now?

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

If I were to debate it, I would feel that I could successfully argue that no floor loading mechanisms are allowed.

Al, regarding what you posted:
That section in blue seems to imply it's legal to go outside the BUMPER PERIMETER, but not necessarily into the BUMPER ZONE.

I still believe that the rules, as they currently appear, must be interpreted as effectively forbidding mechanisms from entering into the BUMPER ZONE outside of the FRAME PERIMETER.

The argument for this is the following.

1. The FRAME PERIMETER seems is not defined in reference to the starting configuration, but in reference to the robot, implying that at any moment wrapping a string around a robot would represent it's current FRAME PERIMETER.
2. Bumper rules dictate that the FRAME PERIMETER must have full bumper coverage in the BUMPER ZONE.
3. Any mechanism, say an arm, going for an object on the ground would enter the BUMPER ZONE.
4. once it's in the BUMPER ZONE, the FRAME PERIMETER now envelops the arm as well
5. the arm + chassis would need to conform to the bumper rules (i.e. HAVE bumpers, maintaing bumper gaps, etc...)
6. since the last point is impossible to conform to, picking up tube from the floor is impossible to do legally.

Again....
I believe the GDC's intent is to allow ground pick up, but I also maintain they will need to change the rules to reflect this intent.

-Leav

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

My apologies, that is what I intended to say, that the robot's bumpers may not change in height. I'll find the specific rule, as I recall something besides the basic bumper zone rule. Will probably edit this post later.

Edit:
R07 B
The BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE . . . and must remain there. Looks like is allowed to move, but not outside that BUMPER ZONE. Not impossible to do with legs that'd probably move you up a bit, but rather difficult to so it effectively.

Re: Stabilizer legs
 

Leav,
I agree to a certain extent. The bumpers define the BUMPER PERIMETER and they must be mounted in the BUMPER ZONE. Therefore there is a defined volume the boundaries of which are the FRAME PERIMETER, the BUMPER PERIMETER and defined BUMPER ZONE. Mechanisms may not intrude on this volume if for no other reason than the bumper occupies that volume. Mechanisms may protrude past the BUMPER PERIMETER and there is no modifier that says only bumpers may enter the BUMPER ZONE. I do see your interpretation and this is a good one for the Q&A.