Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Am I the only person out in the Community of FIRST that thinks the constraints of Tetrix (FTC kit) to build the mini bot is UNFAIR!

Up until this year Michigan was discouraged from FTC as FIRST was scared that they would loose FRC Growth due to costs. Now the winds have changed and we are asked to do something that is not possible. Not possible because:
1. Many of us do not have $400.00 for a basic kit + all the extra stuff that will make the amount higher..
2. No kits are available for purchase. This is the BIG one!!!!

If FIRST is pushing FTC you would think that they would have made sure that there was a stock for kits..... after all there are MANY more FRC teams than FTC teams - especially in Michigan.

I do get that FIRST is trying to compete with VEX - but at our expense and stress level.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

a fellow michigan team feeling the constraints this really stinks for us

it also forces all teams to build nearly the same mini bot

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I definitely second this, as my team is also in a place without many FTC teams, and we just don't have the access to the kit! That's a pretty steep investment to ask of any team, and to force it on some teams simply because they are inconveniently located in relation to FTC teams is quite honestly unfair.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I have to say that I think that their idea was a good one, but their execution was poor. If you are unable to acquire one, due to mistakes on their part, that is truly unfair. You would think that if they knew these kind of things were coming, surplus stock would be prepared. I suppose you could do exactly what they want you to do, find the closest FTC team, and hope that they are generous. Sorry for the predicament this has put you and others in, good luck!

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Mike I couldn't agree more. Not only is the restriction ridiculous and the availability even worse.

Teams who aren't competing until week 2 might as well just wait and see what everyone else did, because with update #1 there is no point in innovation.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I understand/like the idea of FTC teams working with FRC teams, but I agree that the execution is very, very poor! I feel so bad for any teams without access to FTC kits! :(

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I do agree that this is a bit "limiting" but I think you also have to look at it from FIRST's point of view, the biggest thing being damage to their sensors. If one of these bots shoots up in under a second, I think that could do some significant damage to a sensor.

- Sunny

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I too agree, with no teams around, and nearly no budget there is no way we will be able to make a mini bot out of FTC parts, though our team would truly love to make one.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

With the limited resources allowed, I'd be surprised to see a minibot that was able to do significant damage, even with the old rule set. The plates are designed to take at least 4-5 Newtons I'd bet even more. Knowing FIRST, these things will be made durable anyways, considering how much wear and tear it will receive at a regional event. I think it's A, a safety issue and B, a uniformity and regulation issue.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Mike,

You're not quite stuck. Motors can be had for $30 per, and appear to be in stock on LEGO Education Store. We did the math Saturday and came up with a figure of around $200 if you have an NXT brick, including two motors, a battery, and the motor controller. Sheet aluminum, lexan, and rivets are all legal too, which practically every FRC team should be able to use.

While many aspects of minibots are frustrating to me, this one doesn't seem so bad.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Also, although I agree with the minibot change as a safety concern, I am still displeased with the execution of the minibot idea. Along with being unfair to teams without FTC teams near them, it changes the dynamic of the minibot race. Instead of "Whose unique minibot can get to the top first?" it becomes "Whose robot can get to the tower and have their drivers press a button with 10 seconds left in order to get basically the same minibot as everyone else to start climbing first?"

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I hope that FIRST isn't trying to compete with the programs that use Vex equipment. That mindset has been thoughtfully and resoundingly discouraged by more than enough well-respected STEM Robotics leaders within and outside of FIRST; and it certainly wouldn't earn anyone involved any coopertition points.

Blake

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

We are a FLL, VEX and FRC organization. IMO, this is an effort to boost a floundering FTC program and drive up sales to keep supplier order quantities up.
We have a large VEX group of middle schoolers that would love to build us a mini-bot. And all the parts are in the building.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

It's like you just got home and opened the package to the new _____ only to realize that batteries aren't included :)

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Haha, I love this line! :)

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I think it is very obvious that the inclusion of FTC parts is a direct shot at the massive growth VEX has seen over the last couple years, and FTC's inability to gain the same traction. Its pretty disappointing that they are limiting the design challenge of the end game to force FTC onto FRC teams mainly for political reasons. As powerful of a program as FIRST is for inspiring students, playing politics like this sours my view of the organization.

I can tell you here in Canada there are many times more VEX teams then FTC teams...

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I really do not like the adjustment of the Minibot rules in Team Update #1. Honestly, just when I thought FIRST had finally created an FRC game without any near universally-hated rules, they went ahead and made one in TM 1.

We were an early adopter of the FIRST Vex Challenge, and subsequently bought a lot of Vex parts. When FIRST pulled the rug out from underneath us and switched from Vex to Tetrix, we stayed with our investment and stopped competing in the then renamed FTC and started doing VRC. There was no reason to drop our large-investment in Vex to stick with the FIRST brand name. If FIRST hadn't dropped Vex, our team would definitely still be involved with FVC/FTC, and I'm sure they wouldn't be having any issues trying to grow the program.

We were planning on using a stored-energy (via surgical tubing) Minibot launcher to avoid having to buy any FTC parts other than those we got from FIRST Choice. We even started prototyping ideas, and our first prototype showed much promise with times faster than the theoretical minimum time for ascent powered by FTC motors. Then TM #1 ruins all of that, and forces a large unplanned expense onto our build season (We have the budget to absorb it, but are still irate we're being coerced to buy something that otherwise is not needed for our goals of inspiring students).

And as a result of this update forcing all Minibots to be propelled exactly the same (good bye innovative ideas and inspiration, hello clone bots), I expect ~90% of Minibot teams to reach the trigger within 0.25 sec of each other. Now the Minibot bonuses will literally be decided each match by statistical luck more than anything else.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

The minibot component is almost completely taken out of the minibot race, it becomes a race of who can deploy their minibot faster. Which I'm sure is not what FIRST intended.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

This exactly. I was very much looking forward to all the neat methods of mechanical energy storage teams were going to use to power their minibots.

It seems like a little bit of a snub to not allow Tetrix components, but I suppose I understand the logic. Either you use their components, or you build your own. Requiring teams to use the the FTC controllers and not providing them to every team seems rather silly to me...

(This is the case correct -- every team is not guaranteed the FTC stuff with their kit?)

The real question is, just how many VEX stickers will Team IFI plaster on their Tetrix minibots? :cool:

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait

Did I miss something or did you just say we can use the Lego NXT brick? Our school has tons of those.

EDIT: Dumb question. I never did anything with FTC though, is that really what they use to control their robots?!?!
Im thinking of the big brick with 3 inputs and 3 outputs and the display, I think it comes with lego mindstorms.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

::rtm:: See rules <R92-E and -BB> ::rtm::

Personally I don't think we're going to be using the NXT brick. So much weight for something that can just be a simple motor-switch-battery setup

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

A Fair is a place you take your kids to.

I didn't vote because I don't "like" having to use Tetrix motors and batteries, but I understand WHY they would do it this way.

My advice is to write to Bill Miller and ask him to speak about this at Championships.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

ding ding ding! we have a winner! :-) That is exactly what FTC teams use to control the robots. The only thing you have to add is the motor controller (~50 bucks).

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

And... When you add the number of VRC team students to the number of FTC team students, you (not surprisingly) find that together they are inspiring a population of students larger than either inspires alone.

Big Grin!

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Oh how I wish that FTC used Vex instead of Tetrix. 1727 has a strong thriving Vex program and has even integrated Vex into our school system's curriculum, and host Vex tournaments regularly, but we get virtually no recognition for this because it is Vex and not FTC. If the minibot could use Vex pieces we would be done in a snap.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Where can an FTC-unaffiliated team such as 3626 get a complete FTC starter kit? We picked up the kit off of FIRST choice, but I dont see that it includes any motors. We do have an FLL team at the school, so could they provide the NXT?

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

The NXT has 4 "inputs". But one is used for the daisy-chained motor and servo controllers. The other three are the only ones really used for sensors.
on top of this, FTC has a 40 second Auto period.
The reason why this works is because of Hitechnic sensor multiplexers and prototype sensor boards which can be hooked up to multiple custom sensors.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Check your local FLL teams. They use the same brick.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I am not sure that everyone has the proper perspective on this. The only Tetrix parts that are required are the battery (this has a 20A fuse in line) and the up to two motors. From team update #1 the allowable aluminum parts are:
Sheet
90 degree angle
U channel
Tube
Bar

So you are not forced to use the tetrix metal parts.

Further you are allowed Polycarbonate, and any mechanical hardware you wish.
so in the building materials respect the project is very similar to the way FRC was before about 2002.


As for the innovation part of things, I see this like a race where every car has the same engine. You have a maximum amount of power available to you, just like all the others. However the chassis you put it in is up to you. Personally I think you will see a big difference between the teams that just build a mini bot with the tetrix system, and ones that do a lot of engineering on their mini bot.
By a lot of engineering I mean using materials in a smart manner, using the design software given to the teams to lighten the bot. Choosing proper gear ratios to draw the maximum power from the motors as the robot climbs.

I foresee the fastest bot being only the two motors, the battery, and a polycarbonate frame with custom polycarbonate gears and shafts that uses the household light switches for motor control.

Think of this as an opportunity to show the students more involved engineering skills such as FEA and design optimization.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I cannot agree with you more. Making an investment in a new system just simply isn't in the financial cards right now. Sorry FIRST, I'd love to support your programs but I'd rather compete next year and inspire another generation of students. I'm sure Tetrix is grand but I have thousands of dollars of Vex stuff, I'm gonna use that.

Art, sorry you wasted design time. We had a hunch that FIRST would clarify that rule and wanted to wait for it. Sadly it wasted 4 days of our season but we had other things to work on then anyway.

I had hoped the minibots could be some sort of vertical mousetrap car competition. THAT would have been awesome. Now I feel it will look more like a bunch of rodents scurrying up a drain pipe. (Who will be the first team to put their minibot in a mouse trap?)

It has soured my opinion of this game, I guess I'll have to wait until it is played to pass judgement though.

Edit: Mr Martus, I don't think it is unfair. This is FIRST's ball, field, bats, gloves, umps, and game. They can do whatever the heck they want, they could say that all HoF teams always get +50 points and that would be completely within their rights. Do I think it is a restriction made with political motives? Nah, but the road to hell was paved with good intentions and I definitely think this is not the direction I feel is best for FIRST. It is a divisive move with purely symbolical benefits that most of the audience won't even recognize (though the announcers will harp on it almost as much as they did the 1/6th gravity thing in Lunacy). Fair isn't the right word, I think this is outright political and the mere implication of that does more damage to many people's opinions.

And to anyone who says that if I don't like it I can go away (because I know someone will say it eventually) I have to strongly disagree. I do this because FRC made me who I am today and I hate to see the program lose mentors over something as silly as the stupid perception of a contest between two companies who used to work hand in hand. Every mentor we lose is potentially dozens of students lost and when that happens we are all just facing into the wind.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I'd make a long post but between Art's post and what I've said in the other thread I have nothing more to add other than that I am incredibly disappointed in FIRST.

Maybe if FIRST wanted to make FTC teams across the country they'd switch to Vex.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Thats MAINLY because they DID NOT HOLD an FTC tournament in Ontario!! We were an Ontario FTC team that could not find a tournament, and then we had to reluctantly switch over to VEX. I even OFFERED to run an FTC tournament in Ontario last year to no avail.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I want to make it out of 1/8" plate with the plasma cutter. Tetrix is dissapointing, but we have lots of it, WOO! I love Tetrix. its like the piano there a finite number of keys but an infinite number of sounds you can make. the design variations in the PoleBots will be entertaining by themselves. Unless everyone just makes the same one, but whats the fun in that? it would be as exciting as the dj playing only twinkle twinkle little star.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Do you know that you get a free FTC kit of parts from the First Choice Andymark site?:)

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

We know. We don't get enough parts, though.

And some of us hate political decisions, "smart" or otherwise. There's a reason VEX is becoming a force to reckon with and FTC isn't exactly doing that.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Could one of the teams in Mexico/Israel/Brazil/England/NotTheContinentalUS please tell us what shipping for that is and when you can expect to get it? I have a hunch that it is both expensive and much later than us in the US. I assume it is the same for Canada too.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I think we all ought to re-read <G19> and <R92> VERY CLOSELY!!

I'll give you a hint. 0<1.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Thread called "Countries which don't have FTC" is at http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...light=mini-bot

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Thanks for the link. I pulled the answer to my own question from that thread.


I did see your suggestion in that thread as to a possible solution (snipped here for convenience). I like it and feel it is within the spirit of FIRST and Coopertition. I mean, I REALLY like this idea. Doesn't change my opinion of the minbots as a whole though. Thanks for answering at least some of my concerns though.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

What are we missing? This seems pretty crystal clear to me. :confused:

source

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Yep crystal, you read and posted it exactly right, but what about <R92>?

Again, 0<1. :D

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Actually, I like the Minibot arrangement. Note that in Team Update #1, it states that the minibot doesn't have to be built by your team, or even another FRC team at the tournament. It can come from any FTC team and That team doesn't have to be near you geographically. You can contact a team of your choice, partner with them, agree to a deployment 'interface' and meet them at the regional. Or they can just ship you the minibot so you can practice with it and they don't even have to show up at the regional!

This is what engineering is about. Rarely do you have a big engineering design where all the parts and interfaces between parts are done in one location.

FIRST is accomplishing several things here... Exposing FTC teams to FRC more directly, and encouraging normally separate teams to collaborate-- they don't have to be from the same organization, same city or even the same country!

You can get twenty FTC teams to provide you with Minibots, if you are able and they are willing.

John
Team 2530

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Grab your blue box and tell me what you're going to do about the bold portion: The only thing I can think of is that you spend some time "preparing" for a sudden spring after deployment. Are we kind of on the same wavelength here?

P.S. Aren't we in the middle of the FTC competition season, AKA that time when ain't nobody gonna want to lend you FTC parts/motors/stuff?

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Actually, we were concerned we'd blow the top off the scoring pole. Using surgical tubing as an energy storage device in your minibot, you could easily put several hundred pounds of force into spinning your wheels to climb the pole with some very simply engineering. Hint - that's exactly how many teams kicked the soccer balls and launched the track balls. Now picture the same with something weighing under a pound total.

Limiting us to only the electrical energy available in the 12V battery is a smart move on FIRST's part. Limiting us to FTC components only is disappointing. However, it is what it is - we'll move on like everyone else and do our best to figure out a way to make a minibot with no FTC teams to give us parts.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

According to the FIRST FTC website, by the time we get to the FRC week 1 competitions, 111 of the 118 FTC competitions will have been completed. After week 1, only 3 are left to run. That means that there are a lot of FTC teams who have already lost and whose season is over, and maybe they would love a new challenge and would love to help an FRC team.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Tom,
Read the rules about what you can construct your robot with. You only are required to use the tetrix battery and motors. The rest of the mechanical can be built from standard FRC parts, Aluminum, polycarb, etc!!!

The point bill is trying to make is that as I mentioned, the NXT brick is not required. Currently there are no rules specifically for the mini bot electrical system. As such one could use the two household electrical switches to power your motors. This will allow your robot to be lighter and avoid needing to buy a NXT controller brick and the tetrix motor controller.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

But it would sure be helpful to get started on a minibot design, like, uh...now, which is in the middle of their competition season.

Also, what happens at championships when that FTC team whose parts you borrowed needs their stuff back for their own competition?

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Even though 1086 participates in the FTC competition, i was hoping that they wouldn't limit us to just tetrix. For one, it may stop our FTC team from competing in further regional competitions this season which will be sad to see. As many also said its unfair for teams that compete in the VRC. Granted they did give us the option to use other material other than just tetrix i would've much preferred to see the possibility of some VEX or other system based minibots.

As far as the limiting of creativity goes i don't buy it. the whole Tetrix system is about being creative and with the additional materials, there are still many possibilities.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

At this time, a lot of teams in California and probably Florida are already done with their season (2 of 3 regionals done, last one is in San Diego next week), so FRC teams in California are in luck.

I can't really speak for others but my team has a lot of spare motors and parts, and in my region there were grants towards veteran teams for more parts so many other teams should have extras too!

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I'm not suggesting you borrow or design anything. What I am suggesting is seeing if one of the thousands of FTC teams who has already lost, and is not going to the championships - in other words, their season is already over - would be willing to partner with you and to build one for you.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Oh Justin, you let the cat out. :D

And, unless FIRST changes the rules, there will be exactly 0 NXT controllers in our Minibot. 0<1.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Justin,

Re-read the rules about MINIBOT construction. The only "required" item is the battery.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

We are hoping to get by with motors, battery and light switches only as our electrical system but what about " associated,appropriate circuitry)." Will the inspectors apply the FTC standards that do require use of motor controllers and NXT? Bottom line...what constitutes [b]appropriate circuitry[b]?

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Jack, that is true. However, if you want your minibot to move vertically, then you need to read Update #1, specifically the blue box that now accompanies <G19>. NXT motors are now required equipment for vertical motion.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Jack,
While that is true, your robot would not be able to move, as there is no other legal method of converting the energy stored in the battery to work that results in the mini bot going up the pole. Update 1 disallowed stored energy within any other part of the mini bot being used to propel the mini bot up the pole.

Although, It could be a good move for teams without a minibot, or minibot deployment capability to carry the battery of a teammate for the coopertition points.

In any case, you are right, the only part required to be on the mini bot is the battery. But then again the rules don't require the robots to be mobile either :rolleyes:

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Loaner MINIBOT: :rolleyes:

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I am extraordinarily confused. Unless I'm mistaken, those motors are available for free from the FIRST Choice program, as is the required battery pack. Those two items would constitute the only FTC parts you need to run a minibot, correct?

You could wire the two with a simple switch in between and not include any of the (heavy and yucky) FTC bricks/motor controllers/whatever other horrid things they use, right?

I haven't seen any rules about FTC wiring- sorry, I'm just not involved in FTC and have zero desire to be. Are mini-bots playing in the FRC game being held to FTC or FRC wiring rules? I realize that would be illegal for a FRC bot to use a switch for motor control, but what about FTC? It doesn't seem immediately clear to me.

Really, I'm confused. Sorry if this has been hashed out, but can someone please explain for the rest of us what exactly changed in team update one besides what is already clearly stated in it? Why the sudden concern that we can only use FTC parts (besides concerns over everyone having the same lame performance)?

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Typo? NXT motors are illegal. The motors allowed are 2 Tetrix motors.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I have to agree with the rest of the displeasure about this. There is an FTC team at a local middle school in the same town as my FRC team, but I've heard that they have their own competition next month, so they need to be working on their own stuff. I don't think it would be fair to them for us to walk in and ask for their help when they have their own bot they need to build. I really do like the idea of the FRC and FTC teams working together, but I (like many of you it seems) do not like the way they went about doing this.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Typo.

Andy, you're correct.

The concern over FTC parts only (plus all the other stuff in <R92>) is that they removed all forms of stored energy except the battery pre-deployment. So there's no chance of a spring-powered flywheel that is also a drive wheel, say.

They turned a mousetrap car competition into an FTC competition.

The other thing is that it does seem to be political. Some of us hate political decisions like that, no matter the effect.

Also, FIRST Choice is a first-come-first serve, and some teams may have already placed their orders. It might be too late to go back and get an FTC kit through that. So now you have to go the hard and expensive way.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Ah, I see. It didn't occur to me to not get the FTC mini kit, although now I can see why some teams might not. I hadn't planned on using the motors, but I figured the mini-kit might have something useful down the road.

I never seriously believed that FIRST would allow projectile minibots, and I fairly doubt anyone else did, but I am terribly disappointed by the lack of springs or other stored energy. My intention had been to pursue a flywheel design, something I think could have been done safely and would have been very fun to watch. And flywheels sound wicked cool.

I can agree with a lot of the displeasure being voiced (now that I'm not so confused!). I was psyched when I saw the mini bots at kickoff. The shine has definitely worn off now. It went from being a really cool challenge within the game to playing FTC. I guess I play in FRC because I like the access to more powerful options and more technology. Limiting me to FTC's bag of tricks makes me wonder why I'm not just playing in FTC (or, better yet, in one of the VEX based games). As it is, it seems like the winning mini-bot design is the one that bears as little resemblance to FTC as possible, which can't be what FIRST was striving for here.

Thank you for the clarification, though. It seemed for a moment that the team update might have had more insidious implications then I thought. I really can't keep all this FTC, Vex, Tetrix, NXT etc. stuff straight. It all looks like erector sets to me!

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I agree. I was really hoping to see some new and interesting methods of doing this. People with flywheels, surgical tube energy storage, etc.
It reminded me of that scene in Apollo 13, where they needed to fit a square CO2 scrubber into a round hole, they dumped out a bag of parts on the table and said "This is what we have. Build something.".
That'd be the true spirit of FIRST, not this.

I think we'll do the same at 1100 :cool:

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Indeed, it was the first thing that popped into my head as well. And I believe the entire structure of the minibot aspect of the game is the true spirit of FIRST.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Does anyone know if we absolutely have to use the NXT controller because it sounds pretty optional

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

It is optional, so far.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

The whole lightswitch thing makes it seem unlikely the NXT block will be required...

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

what would be the minimum size of the mini bots?:D

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Big enough for the specified battery.

Oh? You want to move vertically? Big enough for the battery and one or two FTC motors, and associated wiring and framework.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Is it allowed to use a belt drive on the minibot?

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

All parts on the mini bot must either be a tetrix part, the NXT brick, or made from materials on the list for the mini bot. You could take surgical tubing and make a belt, and make some pulleys to use it with, it would then be legal.

Or you could potentially use this
http://shop.pitsco.com/store/detail....23&c=1&t=0&l=0

as it is a tetrix part.
For official word however you should use the Q&A forums on usfirst.org

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I would say to use chain instead... but seeing as Tetrix is charging $80 for what is essentially a little bit of 25 series chain, I would see what you could do with the gears they give you and hope that somehow we don't have to throw away our budgets on "special" chain.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

Steve this is exactly the position my FTC team is in. We go to the Clarkson Regional and then we're done (can't afford more). Now we're working to get two other local teams we've been affiliated with over the years mini bots for competition. I think many other FTC teams would be willing to help FRC teams.

For teams in Rochester, NY, all 2,000 of us, yes there aren't many FTC teams, 3750 at R-H is now busy with the two schools we're helping, but the Harley School of Music also has a team you could contact.

The intent of the mini-bot isn't there to punish teams who don't have FTC teams near them, in my opinion it's to reward those who have gone and focused on outreach over the years, for instance an FRC team who went to another school and created an FTC team. And to just use a quick quote we've all heard before "FIRST isn't about robots" teams that took this message to heart should be in a good position.

Although I like to think of that as it's intent it is above all another engineering challenge for us, so quit complaining and get to work! You're not restricted to just FTC parts, you could use aluminum tube, sheet, angle, and channel. All things we in FRC are familiar with. They specify the battery, controllers, and motors you can use, which sounds a lot like FRC to me. Now I just (12:56 EST 1/13/2011) checked the tetrix site that FIRST teams use to purchase parts and they have motors and batteries in stock.

Just to reiterate one more time (and use some capitols)

QUIT COMPLAINING! sit down and think about what you CAN do NOT what you CAN'T! We're engineers so let's solve this problem.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

After my initial negative reaction to the refined Minibot rules, which was probably more due to the fact that it meant a lot of work in our fairly aggressive prototyping schedule was wasted, I don't really have many problems with the Minibot rules now*. After thinking it over and running calculations, I'm very confident we can build a very competitive Minibot under the new rules.

* The only remaining issue I have is that the Minibot is of such importance to the game, that a minimum of one (or two) Tetrix motors and the Tetrix battery should have been included in the KoP.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I posted a question on the Q&A forum today asking this exact question.

We should have the official answer in a couple days.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I'm not very pleased from a budgetary point of view to spend limited granted FRC funds on more FTC parts. Our FTC team is rookie this year. This compounds our quandry as now we have to build a complex FTC bot AND build another FTC bot with no experience from the FTC group. We'll muddle through but it has definitely caused a lot of heartburn for me as a coach. Now I can figure out how keep the arm/handling system for FRC simple and suggest it to the team.....arrgh...I'm consumed by FIRST and I am an addict! :eek:

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I think we all can build a minibot from the supplied first choice kit, and maybe some of us (maybe my team, who knows) won't be able to build the best one, or the fastest one. BUT if we help our kids think through solutions given our unique limitations and skillsets, they will benefit and we'll have done our job. I'm astounded that folks can get so worked up over this - not the end of the world and the best thing we can do for our students is to NOT whine and be exemplars of lousy attitude...oh, and teach them to think through tough circumstances. innovation is nothing without resilience.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I could be wrong but from what i am reading here are the reason why people are upset.

-This stinks of helping the partners of FTC out since VEX is kicking its butt
-Its expensive
-It kills most creative ideas.
-Gives way to many points and makes most of the 2 min in a match far less important. aka king of the hill.
- If we wanted to compete in FTC we would not have signed up for FRC

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I'm a big supporter of VEX, but don't have a problem with FIRST requiring a specific battery and motor to be used on the mini-bot. It could have been a futaba servo, it could have been a banebots motor, but there had to be some limits on the motor and battery, just as there are limits on the motor and battery for the big robot. (Now if they'd had Lithium batteries and brushless motors.... THAT would have been cool, because I know that teams would be flying up the pole!) The fact that they used FTC parts... well... they had to choose something and its not like there is anything wrong with FTC. I volunteer at the events and see kids getting a good experience. Sure they could save a few bucks with VEX, but the important thing is they are involved.

I share the disappointment that the motors and battery are required, but at least the controllers are not. This leaves teams free to do a lot of interesting mechanical work.

Do I think FIRST made a bad move dumping VEX? Yeah! But I'm over that. Time to move on... VEX is good for kids (perhaps even better than had it remained with FIRST), FTC is good for kids, and FRC is good for kids. Teams have lots of choice of non-Tetrix materials to use should they want to.

So get building! I want to see some video of mini-bots climbing in the next couple of weeks.

Jason

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

All I can say about the Minibot is - what a fun opportunity! We had several ideas presented this evening and as quickly as one idea was introduced, it would spur another idea. It was really fun!

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

If you ask me, every team has the same set of ruling on what they can and cannot use, so therefore there is nothing that makes it "unfair"

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

FIRST isn't about the robot right? It is suppose to be the acquiring of skills and appreciation for science and technology right? To embrace that idea there is the 6 week time limit.

We cannot expect the problems we want to solve to present itself and have at our disposal everything we want to solve it as we envision. We have to work with what we got. Expecting the minibots to not have such vast restrictions? Doesn't this go against the idea of teaching kids how to solve problems in a limited time frame with limited resources.

Doesn't this make the minibots exciting in another sense? Having to struggle with implementing ideas while facing the crisis of unavailable resources that you need to work around.

For me it is kind of like programming. The computer does not know what you want, so it defines a limited number of tools. Using those limited number of tools you work around making a substitute for something that doesn't exist.

Pestering a boss about needing this "needed" object is how I am seeing this also. There are limitations, but you need to face that you can't do anything about them and work around it. Like how some teams use some tools to mimic the function of another because they can't afford it.

It may be frustrating to see limits, but you cannot deny that they don't exist in life.

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

I've been having trouble just setting up a frame for the minibot the pieces don't line up for m i think we need more than just the TETRIX® Resource Set

Re: Mini Bot - displeasure
 

You do have more. See the acceptable additional materials list that can be used to build the minibot. Plenty of room for creativity and problem solving.: :) :)