Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

To prevent your robot from turning I am going to suggest that you put a giant patch of roughtop on each of your flap-down-field-blockers. I would also make them deploy so when they are in the down position they actually lift the middle of the robot off the ground a tiny bit. This way no one will ever turn you. I would also add a full 15 lbs mini bot for the added weight (place it as low as possible.) This will give you even more weight.

If you do this I would not want to play against you. As you are now, however, we would want to play you every match because as a giant lever you'd be very easy to push past.

my 2 cents

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Hmm, you're right about <G66> Eric, technically. But I don't think the refs would implement it that way after the first warning since 3553's bot may repeatedly prevent another team from scoring just by being in the way within the scoring zone. Indeed, <T06> would be at the discretion of the refs.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

It should be noted that it's no longer legal. <G48>

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

From the pictures, it appears the extensions would be down in the bumper zone when deployed. The robot-robot interaction seems like it might be legal, but at the determination of the referees. But as G48 does explain "High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LOGO MOTION™. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for incidental contact with such extended mechanisms.".
So if one team buids an immovable object which is outside the bumper perimeter it is fair game for another teams unstoppable force. ;)

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I believe the reference was that 111's flipping strategy has been explicitly outlawed (for the last several years if memory serves) by a rule along these lines:

"Strategies aimed solely at the intentional flipping of opponent's ROBOTs, such as wedge-type features on the ROBOT are prohibited."

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

This is a pretty awesome defensive idea. Earlier I said that you don't 'build' a defensive robot (instead you try an offensive robot that can always play defense), but I was wrong. I can't wait you see the final product.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Just remember that this years' game is played on a very flat, open arena (lots of room to build up speed)...and there are no explicit penalties for ramming (as long as you aren't obviously trying to damage your opponent).

If I were attempting this strategy, I would build a *very* robust robot, indeed.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I want to see this bad boy turn in place.

Seriously though, you may have to do some unique things with your drive system to even get this thing to turn around.


Very creative strategy though! In my non-binding completely subjective ruling would be it's legal assuming it satisfies all other requirements of the robot.

-Brando

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I don't even think you need to between the caution line and the scoring zone line to be a royal pain. Even if the robot was out just in front of the caution line, the other alliance would need to drive around outside of the minibot poles to score. I like it.

It might be worth investigating being able to retract your outerstages, and having a smaller secondary drivetrain to push the the robot down the field. That way if someone gets around you, you can fall back to still be a defender. If you can defend without penalties and deploy a minibot, I'd pick you! :)

I agree. You might want to investigate Buzz Drive (175). Many of their robots have had a small drop down system to drive perpendicular to their robots normal direction of travel.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

It's a neat idea, but I just don't see it working in terms of "high speed offensive bot ramming the edge of yours"-type contact. 150 lbs of robot at 11+fps hitting the extended edge of a 42" moment arm = more torque than I can imagine any robot that can't grip the carpet (as no robot can) can handle.

Maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong before -- very wrong -- when it comes to robot capability and any given FIRST game.

But you might want to consider that I'm not.

In LogoMotion, the best defense is a good, no, GREAT offense.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

This

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Revenge of the Flop-bots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

If you make this work, I would be very happy. There have been no "flop-bots" (like 71 in 2002 or 179 in 2003) since 2008 due to the bumper rules. I'm not sure this type of Flopping has ever been used (other than for ramps in 2007, which doesn't count since most robots normally had their ramps folded up), but it should work well with this years game.

All you need to do to make it legal is have the extensions narrow enough to fit within the frame perimeter at the start of the match.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I actually disagree with the suggestion of using the roughtop "stomp pad." I think the ability to drive side to side would be more valuable/better than an articulating stomp pad. Given that the outrigger wheels would have to be pushed sideways in the defensive configuration, I'm skeptical that a stomp pad would provide greater traction. Really, the best thing to do would be to try both methods, though! If you're going to dedicate six weeks to building this, you want it to be extremely robust and the best it can be!

I agree with the other recommendations... think about heavy bumpers! Having the robot's weight rest on the outriggers would be optimal, so that the moment/torque problem isn't as severe! Perhaps put as much of the robot's weight in the outriggers as possible, too? I'd encourage you to make your dead weight "functional." For example, instead of bolting on some 15 pound dumbells, use steel over aluminum in key places.

I would encourage your team to pursue designing and building a winning minibot, though... Even if you spend 100 seconds on defense, getting to the tower and deploying to get 10 (or 30!) points for your alliance is great! Some of the most successful alliances in FIRST have been ones that had two robots that could score exceptionally well for 120 seconds, and a final team that had excellent defense and a great end-game! In 2007, (this game's "twin" in game pieces *and* in end-game significance) many champion alliances were like this. Having a competitive minibot provides a lot of flexibility to your alliance!

I love your team's ingenuity - I hope the GDC doesn't change the rules to make this illegal! I definitely think it's a potentially very useful robot strategy! Best of luck!

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

*almost no flop-bots http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/match/2008cur_f1m2

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Just thought of something. Depending on the GDC's interpretation, you may have a sticking point with <R09>. As others have established, your external bumpers are not BUMPERS, so they wouldn't count as acceptable places to put your numbers. If the flaps are down, they may say that your team numbers on the BUMPERS covered by the flaps are not clearly visible. If you ask the Q&A be sure to do so in very general terms, as if you get too specific they typically say "we cannot comment on a design."