Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

We are looking to increase our surface area to make a better blocking robot after the autonomous period and before the end game. To do that we want to extend out to fill the 84 cylinder and block as much of the scoring lane as possible. If we include the bumper on the extensions as part of robot dimensions are we legal?

The tan objects represent the extensions in their starting positions. The colored objects represent the base and the extensions in their blocking configuration.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

An interesting strategy.

I am not going to say that it is legal, but there are no violations immediately jumping to mind.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

The thing to remember is that the extensible things aren't bumpers in the conventional sense—mainly because they fail <R07> part B—even though they may look like bumpers. To that end, they need to satisfy all rules, one of which dictates that nothing may overhang the frame perimeter in starting configuration (<R14>).

And you can't declare it part of the frame perimeter, since the frame perimeter must be composed of non-articulated elements—you'd fail inspection on account of <R12>.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

There is no rule that keeps an arm or other appendage from coming down into that area, so I see no reason why these frame extensions cannot. In fact they technically would not need to have bumpers on them, however that might be wise.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Makes sense. So if we reduce the width of the extensions so that the pseudo bumpers do not over hang the frame perimeter it looks like we are in business.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

This is a creative and interesting concept for defense, I think. At first glance I don't think it's illegal in its present form. Just keep in mind that the "bumpers" on the extensions must be included in the weight of the HOSTBOT, and cannot be thought of as the bumpers in the BUMPER specifications. Thus you can do pretty much whatever you want with them.

However, I think that this design is susceptible to easily being turned for two reasons:

1.) The extended frame creates more mechanical advantage for another robot to turn you.
2.) Even with traction wheels on the corners, there's very little weight on the outer corners in the extended positions; thus they provide little protection from another robot turning you.

If you're always beyond the Caution line and get turned into the opponent scoring zone by a high-traction high-torque robot, your robot will receive a penalty, per <G32>.

Thus, solve the anti-turning problem and I think that this is a solid strategy that blocks a good amount of the scoring zone.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Cool concept, but I worry about legality.

"BUMPER ZONE – the volume contained between two virtual horizontal planes, one inch above the
floor and seven inches above the floor"

In your starting configuration, the bumpers do not start in the "Bumper Zone."

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

The kids brought this issue up as well. One of their solutions was to make the robot exactly 120lb by using sandbags in the extensions to help increase the moment of inertia. They also decided to make all 8 wheels high traction wheels to increase the friction to avoid turning. They are going to be excited to see that their ideas were echoed by some more experienced teams.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Good point, we will have to lower the bumpers to line up with the lower support.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I see no issue with that design. the "bumpers" that come down to enlarge the footprint of the robot are not BUMPERS as defined in the rules. The BUMPERS are only the segments attached to the FRAME PERIMETER. It is only those that must be in the BUMPER ZONE and adhere to the bumper rules.

(Remember that the BUMPERS are not part of the size/weight restrictions of the robot, but your "bumpers" are)

As an inspector, I would not allow this configuration as it stands. If the flip down sections were smaller and fit within the FRAME PERIMETER(when upright), then it would appear to be a legal configuration.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I would bring it to the GDC, they do have the final word::rtm::

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

It looks like you have some real BUMPERS, and then you have some other padded devices that extend beyond those BUMPERS.

The padded devices are not BUMPERS per <R07> - they don't start in the BUMPER ZONE, they move, etc. Consequently they are not exempt from the weight and size rules in <R11>, and they must be entirely within the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER when in the STARTING CONFIGURATION prior to the match per <R14>. This also means that these padded devices do not have to meet all the conditions of <R07> - they don't have to be red/blue, don't need team numbers, they wouldn't even necessarily have to have a cover at all, they aren't restricted in what materials can be used.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

This brings up an interesting topic concerning the display of team numbers on all sides. It's not an explicit rule this year, yet it's an issue the GDC thought would be solved by putting the numbers on all BUMPERs.

I also wouldn't tread in the waters of leaving the external 'bumpers' red or blue -- best to make them black or something neutral if the covers will never be changed. Sure, there's nowhere in the rules that states anything about the colors of external boundaries -- yet if the refs get confused about which alliance you're on ... well that part is a bit vague.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

HOT PINK:ahh: :D

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Actually, Jesse, I think no penalty. <G61> is my witness on this. Repeatedly doing that, you might be at risk of a yellow card (repeated egregious behavior--being continually turned into the zone) under <T06>, or penalized if you aren't quick enough to pull out. Trust me, high-traction wheels aren't quite a sure anti-turn method. It may just make the turning uglier to look at.

Given that you fit in the 84" diameter circle, I'd say legal, but risky. I can see a few ways to get a robot past you and score. Based on the top-view drawing, you'd be at 85" and change given a full 38" long starting robot, excluding the bumpers on the extensions (83" given a 37" long starting robot, which is recommended, and definitely over with the end and side bumpers on the extension--92" on a 37" robot base), measured corner-corner because that's the easiest way to check fitting in the cylinder. The cylinder, like the sizing box, is unforgiving. It may help to draw one up in your favorite CAD program and fit the robot into it, if you haven't already.

Sandbags: There are other ways to add weight. If there's any hole in the sandbags, and any sand gets out onto the field, you could be penalized under <G45> (damage to arena by sanding) or <R31> (I know it says lubricants, but it could easily be extended to other contaminants--in fact, it used to include all contaminants, but that's not quite relevant this year because that's past years' rules). Try steel plates instead--they're fairly easy to bolt on, and smaller in size, and won't get all over the field if they come loose.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

To prevent your robot from turning I am going to suggest that you put a giant patch of roughtop on each of your flap-down-field-blockers. I would also make them deploy so when they are in the down position they actually lift the middle of the robot off the ground a tiny bit. This way no one will ever turn you. I would also add a full 15 lbs mini bot for the added weight (place it as low as possible.) This will give you even more weight.

If you do this I would not want to play against you. As you are now, however, we would want to play you every match because as a giant lever you'd be very easy to push past.

my 2 cents

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Hmm, you're right about <G66> Eric, technically. But I don't think the refs would implement it that way after the first warning since 3553's bot may repeatedly prevent another team from scoring just by being in the way within the scoring zone. Indeed, <T06> would be at the discretion of the refs.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

It should be noted that it's no longer legal. <G48>

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

From the pictures, it appears the extensions would be down in the bumper zone when deployed. The robot-robot interaction seems like it might be legal, but at the determination of the referees. But as G48 does explain "High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LOGO MOTION™. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for incidental contact with such extended mechanisms.".
So if one team buids an immovable object which is outside the bumper perimeter it is fair game for another teams unstoppable force. ;)

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I believe the reference was that 111's flipping strategy has been explicitly outlawed (for the last several years if memory serves) by a rule along these lines:

"Strategies aimed solely at the intentional flipping of opponent's ROBOTs, such as wedge-type features on the ROBOT are prohibited."

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

This is a pretty awesome defensive idea. Earlier I said that you don't 'build' a defensive robot (instead you try an offensive robot that can always play defense), but I was wrong. I can't wait you see the final product.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Just remember that this years' game is played on a very flat, open arena (lots of room to build up speed)...and there are no explicit penalties for ramming (as long as you aren't obviously trying to damage your opponent).

If I were attempting this strategy, I would build a *very* robust robot, indeed.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I want to see this bad boy turn in place.

Seriously though, you may have to do some unique things with your drive system to even get this thing to turn around.


Very creative strategy though! In my non-binding completely subjective ruling would be it's legal assuming it satisfies all other requirements of the robot.

-Brando

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I don't even think you need to between the caution line and the scoring zone line to be a royal pain. Even if the robot was out just in front of the caution line, the other alliance would need to drive around outside of the minibot poles to score. I like it.

It might be worth investigating being able to retract your outerstages, and having a smaller secondary drivetrain to push the the robot down the field. That way if someone gets around you, you can fall back to still be a defender. If you can defend without penalties and deploy a minibot, I'd pick you! :)

I agree. You might want to investigate Buzz Drive (175). Many of their robots have had a small drop down system to drive perpendicular to their robots normal direction of travel.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

It's a neat idea, but I just don't see it working in terms of "high speed offensive bot ramming the edge of yours"-type contact. 150 lbs of robot at 11+fps hitting the extended edge of a 42" moment arm = more torque than I can imagine any robot that can't grip the carpet (as no robot can) can handle.

Maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong before -- very wrong -- when it comes to robot capability and any given FIRST game.

But you might want to consider that I'm not.

In LogoMotion, the best defense is a good, no, GREAT offense.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

This

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Revenge of the Flop-bots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

If you make this work, I would be very happy. There have been no "flop-bots" (like 71 in 2002 or 179 in 2003) since 2008 due to the bumper rules. I'm not sure this type of Flopping has ever been used (other than for ramps in 2007, which doesn't count since most robots normally had their ramps folded up), but it should work well with this years game.

All you need to do to make it legal is have the extensions narrow enough to fit within the frame perimeter at the start of the match.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I actually disagree with the suggestion of using the roughtop "stomp pad." I think the ability to drive side to side would be more valuable/better than an articulating stomp pad. Given that the outrigger wheels would have to be pushed sideways in the defensive configuration, I'm skeptical that a stomp pad would provide greater traction. Really, the best thing to do would be to try both methods, though! If you're going to dedicate six weeks to building this, you want it to be extremely robust and the best it can be!

I agree with the other recommendations... think about heavy bumpers! Having the robot's weight rest on the outriggers would be optimal, so that the moment/torque problem isn't as severe! Perhaps put as much of the robot's weight in the outriggers as possible, too? I'd encourage you to make your dead weight "functional." For example, instead of bolting on some 15 pound dumbells, use steel over aluminum in key places.

I would encourage your team to pursue designing and building a winning minibot, though... Even if you spend 100 seconds on defense, getting to the tower and deploying to get 10 (or 30!) points for your alliance is great! Some of the most successful alliances in FIRST have been ones that had two robots that could score exceptionally well for 120 seconds, and a final team that had excellent defense and a great end-game! In 2007, (this game's "twin" in game pieces *and* in end-game significance) many champion alliances were like this. Having a competitive minibot provides a lot of flexibility to your alliance!

I love your team's ingenuity - I hope the GDC doesn't change the rules to make this illegal! I definitely think it's a potentially very useful robot strategy! Best of luck!

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

*almost no flop-bots http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/match/2008cur_f1m2

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Just thought of something. Depending on the GDC's interpretation, you may have a sticking point with <R09>. As others have established, your external bumpers are not BUMPERS, so they wouldn't count as acceptable places to put your numbers. If the flaps are down, they may say that your team numbers on the BUMPERS covered by the flaps are not clearly visible. If you ask the Q&A be sure to do so in very general terms, as if you get too specific they typically say "we cannot comment on a design."

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

MOE, Team 365 from 2002 comes to mind when thinking about something like this. Given, back then you could have metal dig into the carpet, but MOE had a system that would expand the entire width of the field more or less and was able to stay in place/move forward much of the time.

A valid concern, but I imagine MANY teams manipulators they are using to pick up tubes will present the same issue.

-Brando

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Fun times. You'll fit right in. :cool:

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

You're right.

@Original Post
Wheels (a lot of them) on their own should be able to give as much traction as a stomp pad, but the main idea is to get most to all of the weight onto the bumper extensions.

Also, it would be beneficial (if you plan on deploying a minibot, or if you get pushed out of position) to raise the bumper extensions, because the long configuration being won't be very maneuverable when it comes to turning.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

However, if you choose to deploy this between your towers. You will presumably never have to turn again the entire match. Then to deploy the mini-bot you just bump into the tower and go from there.

Also, I would consider creating an auto mode which gets right up to the middle line so you can deploy as soon as possible.

My favovite thing about this stratigy is that not only will you be blocking teams out of their scoring area. You will also be traping teams inside the area. The more I think about it the more I like it. This is definatly the best possible defensive stratigy for the game this year.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Yup. When we discussed this strategy that was one of it's biggest advantages. Not only did they have to fight their way through you to get to the scoring rack, you better believe they are also going to have to fight you to get out.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

27 X 54 ft field.

27x12= 324in
field lanes= 4ft 4x12= 48
half tower base= 15in
robot length= 82 in

324-48-48-15-15-82= 116 in

116/2= 58 inches on either side of you when in the middle of the field.

58/12= 4.8333 ft

you must be able to travel about 9 fps to be effective with this stratigy.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Possible countering strategy: one robot stays on the scoring zone-side of the dragonfly, the other two acting as feeder robots, that pass tubes over the dragonfly. This has been talked about a lot anyway, but against the dragonfly seems to be the place where it would be most effective. Makes a good argument for multi-joint arms and/or a small "kicker."

--Ryan

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Thanks for all of the feedback. The team went through them today and changed a few things in our design. I will get them loaded up here in a few days.

We are going to reduce the size our extension width to eliminate any overhang of the perimeter in our starting configuration
We are going to lower the bumper to start at 1 inch
We are going to move as much weight to the extensions as we can
We are only going to use the four main wheels to drive, once in our defensive area we will move between the two zones to bog entrance and egress from the opposing team scoring zone on the safe side of the caution line.
We are going to create some code to keep the robot on the safe side of the caution line using one of our light sensors
We are going to use steel plates as opposed to sand to ballast our extensions
We are going to use 8 high traction wheels to maximize friction and moment of inertia during defensive game play
We are going to keep our pseudo bumpers the same color as our real bumpers and put the team number on them as well
We are going to make a very structurally sturdy bot to be able to withstand high kinetic energy impacts

Let me know if the students missed any changes.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

One of the kids asked about putting a leaf blower on the top of the robot to work against that. Not sure if that is legal plus it seems like a good bit of work so i told them to keep it in their back pocket if we have time at the end we can work on it.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

hmmm I don't know about a leaf blower, but a gaint net sure would be cool! It could be attached to the "wings" and fling out at the beginning of teleop almost like a colapsible volley ball net :cool: that would make passing or throwing the tubes over you very difficult for your opponents

I love this design! I am so excited that the Rambots are off to such a great start in this season and in FIRST :D

~Hannah

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

The only problem there would be the fact that you cannot have control of more than one game piece at any given time. The net would probably collect multiple game pieces, and it would be pretty hard to release them when they are caught. Nice idea, though!

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

WOAH! I just noticed the team name:D .

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

If only you could have 2 robots with this strategy and one pure scoring bot. You could effectively build a wall without a need to maneuver back and forth. The odds would be against an alliance being able to get both though unless one of them actually got to pick and was ranked first.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Quite honestly, forcing an alliance to perform this strategy would be an excellent defense! From past games (07 and 08, particularly) 50% of robots spend a large portion of their time acquiring game pieces... if you can force an alliance to have to acquire each game piece twice, you'd be doing a lot! This would be less effective the better your competition is...

The strategy that 3553 is proposing is by no means a game-breaking strategy... it's not like you're putting an infinitely tall stone wall in front of their goals! This is a very strong deterrent that will likely reduce the opponents score more than an average offensive robot would increase your own alliances' score. Simply put, the right robot can play effective - but not bullet-proof - defense with this strategy.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

thanks I didn't even think about it like that :o Also after spending more time thinking about the net i realized that a robot with a claw could easily get tangled/ destroy a net... oh well, I still really like the dragonfly design though

~Hannah

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I just want to clear up something so this doesn't grow out of hand. The Wildstang 2003 robot although designed with a wedge (legal in that year) was not designed (and never used) to flip our opponents. It was merely a strategy to allow us to protect the ice and to allow alliance partners to drive up on us for protection if needed. Any robot that flipped over trying to go around our strategy did so under their own driving. Our drivers were practiced to stop driving (or back up) if a team was aggressive so we would have no part in their flip. The wings were articulated and were raised during much of the match.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

It should be interesting to see this robot play the game. Inherent to adding traction to the outer corners to prevent turning is the fact that while the sides are up, the robot will have a high c.g. This means that even the high-speed low-torque KOP drive train can prevent this robot from getting into position.

Take care that you don't intentionally deploy the extremities down on top of a robot that's trying to get by since that amount of weight can significantly damage the other robot -- while technically it would probably be considered incidental contact the first time it happened, consider the bridges that may be burned in doing so.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

You need to think carefully about how you're going to do this. Your pseudobumpers still don't fall under normal bumper rules, so you don't get to make this change for free. If you have two sets of colored "bumpers", you'll need to pass weight with BOTH sets, as you'd fall under the multiple configuration part of <R11>. (RED configuration and BLUE) Thus, you'd be wasting some of your ballast, leaving it in your pits since you could only run with one set of pseudobumpers at a time.

I'd either go with a neutral color like black or white, or make the fancy reversible-style bumpers with the cloth flap that flips over to change bumper colors.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Seems like technically, your plan may run afoul of R09:

"Teams shall display their team number on the BUMPERS in four locations at approximately 90° intervals around the perimeter of the ROBOT. The numerals must be at least 4” high, at least in ¾” stroke width and in a contrasting color from its background. Team Numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 feet, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing ROBOTS"

Two of your numbers on your official BUMPERS will not be clearly visible from 100' during much of the match. Putting extra numbers on the extensions satisfies the goal of the rule, but doesn't really satisfy the rule.

I suppose the same could be said about a typical robot's floor loading mechanism, but that is usually a temporary condition, while yours will be more long lasting, I presume.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I definitely understand the point you are trying to make here, but I think that is a tough line to draw in the sand; some mechanisms are allowed to block team numbers, while others are not? It just seems like a tough call to make. I would just ask the GDC and get the official ruling before going one way or the other.

-Brando

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Before I get into along lost post a quick question for OP
Are you going to design the extensions to be retractable or are they going to stay down once deployed?

Quick review of Zone Zeal (2002) there were 3 large movable goals initially lined up in the middle of the field (Neutral zone) and Alliances of 2 robots would try to push the goals into their scoring zone (reverse Tug o' War). There also were soccer balls you could put into the goal to increase score, they only score if they are in your zone. The strategy with MOEhawk (robot's name in 2002) was to expand our wingspan to ~14ft while speeding toward the goals. Grab all 3 goals push them (barely) into our zone in the first few seconds of the match then deploy traction devices on the arms and under the bot to hold our ground for the rest of the match.

The most important part of the traction devices on the outer goal grippers was not the metal file cards against the carpet but the pneumatic cylinders we used to lift the goal and put additional normal force on the file card. We had a version of this traction device that used rougthtop in place of file cards and it worked almost as well. The movable goals weighed more than a robot so there was plenty of additional normal force to be had at the end of that arm. The whole system of MOEhawk and 3 goals weighted more than 500lbs, giving us a distinct advantage against a 130lb robot ramming us.

At Nationals (as the Championship Event was called back them) we went against a robot that also lifted the goals, and they were the far more effective at moving MOEhawk than any other robot. Also in the epic final match of Brunswick Eruption, the Silver Scorpion (Team 25's bot) actually pushed a soccer ball under the goal reducing the normal force. Silver Scorpion's next ram moved the goal & arm winning the event.

I don't see anyway to get additional traction like lifting a goal in this years game. There are rules against using wedges and grasping field elements. Of course 3553's robot will be only be 7' max width about half the width of MOEhawk so the moment arm is significantly less.

Agreed, they definitely will fit into the defensive mindset of Philly. Many years a top defensive bot gets picked near the end of the first round as an alliance goes for defense against a high-scoring, high-seeded alliance. When a few members of my team were saying that we wouldn't see much defense this year, I reply with something like "We are going to Philly, right?" It is great to see a rookie team (and a fellow Boeing team) trying an interesting idea like this, I hope to see it at Philly.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

The more I think about <G61> and this thread, along with update 4, the more I'm thinking that <G61> won't apply to the situation where you get knocked into the opposing zone while playing defense.

The rule states that one Alliance can't cause the other to incur a penalty. But if you are playing defense, especially between the caution line and the zone boundary, and you get knocked into the opposing zone, it could be argued that you put yourself in the situation where you would cross into the zone.

I guess my point is, if you plan to play strong defense you may want to stay on the center-field side of the caution line, close to the towers, to avoid any chance of going across the zone line.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Here is an updated design that incorporates all of the feedback we received. We ordered the wrong cylinders so those will need to be fixed. We are 82 in long and fit into an 83.75 in radius with the pseudo bumpers. This will be a blocking robot with 4 CIMS, 8x 8” wheels, and we will launch the mini bot from the center section on the top. We will retrrack the extensions prior to moving to deploy the monibot.

We still have to figure out if that break in the bumper is OK. if not we have to figure out another way to get the extensions down. We are planning on making each extension close to 25lb by putting some of the heavy system components in them.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

There is no rule against putting yourself in a situation where you can be pushed into the opponents zone, there is a rule against going into it. If another robot pushing you is the action that causes you to enter the opponents zone I fail to see how <G61> would not apply.

The actions of the opposing alliance (their robot pushing yours) caused you to violate a rule (entering the opponents home zone). Matches the scenario covered by <G61> exactly.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I'd have to say that the gap in the bumper causes your robot to violate the 100% coverage rule. That said, if you moved the base of the cylinder to the upper part of the frame so it didn't have to go through the bumpers, and maybe moved the attachment to the wings slightly higher, you could easily avoid the gap.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

The bot looks good, I'm glad you're aiming to make the minibot - resist giving up on it! :-)

A few important comments:
1. Currently the the robot's true bumpers have a small cut-out in them for the "outriggers" to fold through... Those are unfortunately not legal. The robot's bumpers are required to be continuous all the way around the robot, with no exceptions. <R07A>

2. I'm glad you're certain you can fit within 84"! I feel harsh in asking, but will the bottom edge of the "outriggers" extend outside of the 84" while unfolding?

3. You're welcome to construct whatever you like for the "pseudo-bumpers;" however the bumpers that go around the 28"x38" robot must be regulation... I'm not sure if it's just the model, but the regulation bumpers have only two pool noodles - not three stacked on top of each other. <R07E>

4. A not so significant comment... It seems like there are many frame members... I have no idea what your wait looks like, but be sure you have wait for everything... From experience, as soon as a team takes the attitude "wait isn't that much of a concern!" the robot ends up overweight. Make sure you include things like wires, fasteners, and chain in your weight roll-up. Those can add as much as 15+ pounds on the entire robot!


Looking good - I admire your teams' innovation, open designing, and willingness to take risks! Best of luck!

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I was going to run through a list of issues, but then I saw Nathan's post: do what he says! Pay particular attention to the entirety of <R07>.

Your current design is illegal and overbuilt, but is certainly salvageable. Use your CAD program's weight estimation function, to sanity-check your work.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Please tell me you meant to say 83.75 in DIAMETER.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I concur, you cannot have a gap in your true BUMPERS for the outrigger support to come down.

And what's up with a 3-noodle bumper?

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

He he

Yes I meant to say diameter

Here is a reduced weight configuration we updated per the comments. We removed almost 20lbs. We also fixed the bumper gap. We also fixed the bumpers to have the recommended 2 noodles. And we also changed our pneumatic solution to make the elevation of the extensions easier to do with a shorter cylinder. Thanks again for everyone’s help. You have saved our team from making a lot of mistakes.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

We figured we could use a 1x8” piece of wood and get 3 noodles on it to cover all of our major metal. After all of the comments about ramming we got scared that we should be really well protected.

We downsides to a 1X7” piece of wood to get the minimum 6 in of bumper needed to have a two 2.5” noodles on it.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I think y'all need to re-read <R07>. The 6" minimum is length per segment (<R07-D>); the maximum of that dimension is as long as the robot. You need a 3/4" thick x 5" tall piece of plywood as bumper backing (<R07-F>).

I'd also be cautious about the plywood in the corners--because you're changing segments, you may run afoul of <R07-C>'s corner/segment joint-filling rules. In the past, it's been much clearer about whether or not hard parts in corners is prohibited (it was in the past, not sure about this year).

Note that these only apply to the bumpers that are out in the Starting Configuration. Ditto for the extra bumper weight allowance.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

If we need bumpers from 1” to 7” that means we need a 6 “ piece of wood. A 1x7” piece of board is 6.25” high so we were going to cut that to length instead of cutting plywood by length and width.

Our bumper design is single pieces per side. So we shouldn’t have an issue with the minimum length.

In the corners are we only supposed to have wood adjacent to metal? Meaning we would have a gap in the backing of the noodles?

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

The bumper rules are certainly extensive! Most of the bumper construction is set out in the rules... There is also a required "bumper zone" so that all teams have their bumper at the same level, making tall bumpers less necessary. The bumper zone is 1"-7" from the ground... so the bumpers (which have to be 5" tall) have 1" of leeway. It's hard to tell, but using the 8" wheels as a reference, I'd estimate your bumpers may be too high for the bumper zone... maybe the plywood is just the wrong height though?

Yes, the wood should only be directly backed by metal - if the sides of your robot are 27" and 37", the wood should be a 3/4" thick piece of plywood with dimensions of 5" tall and either 27" or 37" in length. It's also required to protect the corners, a good way of doing this is putting a 5" long piece of pool noodle inside the fabric of the bumpers at the corners. We normally put this vertical 5" long noodle on the ends of the 27" long segments, but it doesn't matter where they go. :-)

I'm certainly impressed with the time/energy and CAD going into this from a rookie team... I really wish we competed at the same regional - maybe championships! ;-)

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Quoting for emphasis and great justice.

Some years it was allowed, some years it wasn't. It's been quite inconsistent historically.

This year, a fully overlapped 90° corner with 0.750 in plywood would have a dimension of approximately 1.060 in between the outermost extent of the "hard part" of the bumper (the plywood corner) and the corner of the frame perimeter. That violates <R07L>, which stipulates a maximum of 1 in.

What makes this really insidious is that not every corner that overlaps would run afoul of this rule. Other angles or incomplete overlap might still satisfy <R07L>.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

This is looking much better... It still looks like you have two problems with your official BUMPER-- the plywood looks >5" tall-- since each noodle is 2.5" the plywood should just fit behind the noodles. At the corners, the plywood should not over lap-- this is not permitted.

I would recommend submitting a formal Q&A question about your design, asking both about the obscuring of your official team number on your official bumper as well as how G48 might apply.

<G48> Strategies aimed at the destruction, attachment, damage, tipping or entanglement of ROBOTS, MINIBOTS, or HOSTBOTS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed. Contact with another ROBOT or HOSTBOT inside it‟s FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed. Violation: PENALTY, plus potential disablement and YELLOW CARD

<bluebox>High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are an expected part of LOGO MOTION™. ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for incidental contact with such extended mechanisms. For example, use of wedge-like mechanisms to flip ROBOTS would be considered a violation.<bluebox>

It says: "ROBOTS place mechanisms outside of the BUMPER PERIMETER at their own risk" Does this mean that you assume the risk of being assessed a penalty if another bot pushes you into the zone via only contact with an extension? Hard to say.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

It's still there:
Now, you have to read into this that the "maximum horizontal dimension" means the dimension of the portion of the frame that the bumper is attached to.

If you use a non-rectangular frame (e.g. x-gon where x>4), the maximum horizontal dimension of your robot is longer than the length of any one side.

And if you do have a rectangular frame, this could be read that on the long sides, the wood can be no more that the length of that side, but on the short side the wood could be longer than the side, up to the length of the long side or the 1" hard part rule (<R07-L>), whichever is less.

However, 2010 rule <R07-B> read the same way as this year's rule, so I would assume anyone asking the GDC would get the same answer as in prior years - the wood segment cannot extend beyond the length of the frame segment.

Incidentally, the quasi-bumpers on the outriggers do not have to conform to <R07> - you could make them 3-noodles high if you wanted, or have hard parts around the corners. They would only have to comply with other rules about your extensions not harming another robot.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

JJ,
Please PM me and I can help walk you through the bumper rules. We can either further this on email or you can give me a call after that. The bumper rules are a little difficult to understand at first.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

That "maximum horizontal dimension" rule is still a bit messed up: imagine an isosceles triangle with one side just under 28 in, and two sides of 40 in. That fits within the permitted "maximum horizontal dimensions", but has a larger horizontal dimension than anything specifically described. In fact, geometrically, it would be extremely reasonable to say that the maximum horizontal dimension of a "28” x 38” (71.12cm x 96.52cm) rectangular space" is about 47.2 in (the hypotenuse). And even if you define it in terms of the current robot (rather than the hypothetical—this is not clear in the rule), you can still take a diagonal measurement that would seem to define the maximum horizontal dimension.

As for plywood extending into the corners, <R07C> seems to permit it ("by beveling the ends between adjacent segments"), and Figure 4-2 appears to support this interpretation (at low resolution, so at best it's inconclusive). <R07K> does not disallow it (since the "unsupported" portion of bumper backing is less than 8 in—a key difference from last year's rule which required the entire length of the bumper be supported by the frame perimeter). (<R07B> doesn't seem to be a factor here; were you thinking of something else?)

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Cool so we can mount our bumpers so that they go from 2" off the ground to 7" off the ground. if we have a 1" leeywat and the actual bumper is only 5" tall.

Also we will get the corner fixed so that there is no wood overlap.

We have few funds so we are trying to be as precise with our virtual work as possible before we start cutting and buying. need to minimze waste. If anyone has some fundage they could spare the kids in south Philly would be very appreciative.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

See Team Update #6 for clarification to <G32> (Zones) and <G33> (Lanes>:

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

they would not get a penalty, the team that pushed them in would

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

joek,

Check out the changes to <G32> and <G33> in Team Update #6. In a nutshell, <G61> does not apply to these rules, meaning that if your ROBOT crosses into the opposing LANE or ZONE you will get a PENALTY, regardless of how/why.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

:confused: I know this is kind of random for this thread but, I made this account recently and I was wondering how do I post new threads and whats not :confused:

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

we believe our strategy, shown below still works with the latest rules update.

Also since we don't believe any robot will be able to push us into their scoring zone we should be fine.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I like the way you think, but when you say (in the picture) that you will "put particular effort into confusing" "cameras or sensors", you're just going to run afoul of <R02> (and therefore fail inspection). If that happens to be overlooked, you're still liable for a red card due to <G30>.

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

I'm not sure that padded extensions are consistent with the spirit of <G48>
"no penalties will be assigned for incidental contact with such extended mechanisms."

If the extensions are intended to be pushed into other robots or intended to be placed in positions such that contact with other robots is intentional and not incidental, then my nonbinding interpretation of the definition of "incidental" and the letter of G48 is that padded (or unpadded) extensions beyond the bumper perimeter that - (even if they are well designed to prevent damage in collisions)- are not consistent with the clear demarcation: bumpers are for intentional contact, anything else is for incidental contact.

Are the inspectors going to need to inspect if a high speed collision with extensions are just as safe as collisions with the bumpers? Bumper rules currently only apply to bumpers: would some of them need to be interpreted for "extensions"? Somehow I don't see the GDC going down that path.

I find it more likely for the GDC to decide that intentional pushing or blocking with anything other than the official bumpers is not allowed by <G48>.


If you haven't already asked an official question to the GDC, then might I suggest:

"Is it allowable without penalty to intentionally (not incidentially) make contact with the bumper of other robots using parts of our robot other than the official bumpers mounted on the frame perimeter?

Re: Are extensions with bumpers after the start of the game legal
 

Only if it was obvious the offensive robot was trying to get them the penalty. If it's obvious that the offensive robot is simply trying to get to the scoring zone (ya know, by having a tube in its possession, pre-positioning the tube for scoring, etc) then I don't think the offensive robot would be called for it.