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Fetcher/Strategy
How useful would being a fetcher be? Fetcher, being a robot being able to quickly get the tube to it's scoring zone, so that the other teammates could focus on simply getting the tube on the scoring pegs.
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It would probably be a lot better to have two very fast robots with arms scoring themselves, saves quite a few steps...
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Yeah, if the "fetcher" were able to place the tubes it had on the pegs I think the alliance (or pair of placer and fetcher) would be able to hang more pegs than not. They would cut out the time for the fetcher to drop the piece and the placer to pick it up. They would also cut out any time between the first tube being placed and the second one being dropped off and so on.
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If the other two were fast though this could be a very good Strategy,I think. That way they could get tubes up faster then having to go back and forth. I guess im trying to eliminate the need for all teams to be fast. This way if the teammates could pick up the tubes all they have to do it put them on the pegs. I just wondering could being a fetcher be utilized by teams who pick up tubes and put hang'em fast.
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If it had to place the tubes on though it eliminate the point of what I would think a fetcher would be. I was think just getting the tubes in scoring position for the Alliance. Maybe a gatherer would be a better name lol.
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I don't see the strategy solving much. With 573's luck, we know not to build a specialized robot. If we build a fetcher robot, we would probably get paired with teams who can't hang tubes on the third row. Also, the fetcher robot would have to drive most of the field, drop a tube in the safe zone, and drive back. Meanwhile, the scoring robot would have to pick up that tube and place it on the rack. Picking up tubes takes time and probably isn't worth adding the extra few steps.
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I for one think this is a great stratigy.
If your really fast and can get tubes very quickly from the human player and dump them in your scoring area for another robot to hang on the top row it would be very useful. It would be even better if you could somehow eject them from half-field. The bottom row isn't worth crap. (pardon my French). If you plan on only being able to hang on the bottom row, I would switch to this stratigy. You will be much more coveted as a third seed tube runner than as a guy that only hangs on the bottom and gets in your alliance partners way while they are trying to score high. Basically, if you know you can't be the first seed, build a robot that compliments the first seed. This will be a great support robot. I see the rookies that excel at this years game using this stratigy. If you recall 2007 there was almost specific types of robots: Tube hangers, Ramp bots, and robots with both. This year will be similar to that one in that specific roles will be taken up on alliances. |
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What if we can throw them (with accuracy) 20ft. Then when all tube we can get are in play we could place tubes or set up for minibot.
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That idea requires accurately throwing three different shapes of tubes with variable sizes and inflation more than 20ft with consistent distance and aim, which scares me. To be effective, it also requires keeping the tubes way up high in the air the whole time so that they don't get intercepted by someone with a tall robot. :eek: But even assuming it's feasible from an engineering standpoint, it's a little shallow from a strategic perspective. 1) You're hurting yourself in qualifiers, when you're not likely to have amazing scoring robots, when with the engineering you did you probably could have built the best scorer at your competition. 2) Mass volume of tubes isn't really necessary. Once the top two layers are full, your time is better spent stopping the other team from doing what you just did or lining up for minibots. 3) You have to keep all of the tubes within the 7 foot by 19 foot home zone and leave room for someone to maneuver in there. Of course, now that I've typed this one of these bots will win worlds. :p I really like the idea of a feeder, but I think throwing tubes is a little out there. |
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Why bother fetching when you can kick the tubes across the field? Food for thought...
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The fetcher is probably the most desirable second pick possible at the regional level, IMO.
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Unless, of course, your robot has utility in something else, such as defense (blocking) or scoring. |
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Well be prepared. We a successfully prototypes a mechanism that can throw the Triangle and that circle and our square is poped.but we have it on a rotating plate that can aim. all we do is drive forwards and backwards and throw tubes. Right now it throws like 10ft but today is the first day we used it. We have ideas how to throw it further also expecting anywhere from 15 to 25 ft. we will have it dialed in this week. Please keep posting. We really want to know how other teams could utilize this.
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Shaf2909, I'm impressed to hear you've got it throwing ten feet. Please let us know how your continued attempts go!
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I will post updates everyday. Let me know if you have any other questions. Only my FIRST true year so I'm excited to see how our strategy turns out. Thanks for the comments they have helped tremendously.
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My personal thought is that if you can build a robot that can throw a tube from your human player area to the offensive zone reliably (i.e. you are impervious to defense), you will never miss elims. |
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Note to all: If you build offensively, keep defense in mind always for defense will always keep you in mind. |
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A reliable robot with the capability to load and offload tubes quickly would be valuable to any alliance. My personal theory is that the method of pickup needs to be as simple and fast as possible - think just dropping a tube from the Feeder onto a peg on the back of the robot. If this "Fetcher" could also score some tubes on the bottom peg, or even the middle, especially in autonomous, they'll be worth their weight in gold in events with extremely capable scorers. |
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I just can't picture this being a viable strategy.
Unless you can throw the tubes really far, really accurately, or are some kind of speed demon, it would just be better to be able to score in the top row. The whole "set down, pick up" thing is way too clumsy to be time-efficient imo. Not to mention that strategy depends on another robot being able to pick up from the ground (we aren't planning to). |
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If you're playing defense on the worst robot on the alliance, the alliance has already won. It's lose - lose: Either play a disadvantageous 2v2 matchup, or let two very good robots score even faster than you. |
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I agree with Chris that this can be a viable strategy, but I think that the ceiling for this robot's effectiveness is even higher than his post seems to suggest. In that scenario the ceiling is equal to a purely defensive robot without the tube throwing capability, meaning there is no added value.
If the tube throwing robot is also capable of playing defense, they may be able to either effectively nullify a defender while simultaneously at least harassing the opponents offense or force the defender to let them throw tubes unhindered. If the defender hangs around while you switch to defense they are reducing their effectiveness, if they leave you go back to throwing tubes. The distance the defender needs to travel to switch roles is much greater than the distance the tube thrower needs to travel. |
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Remember - with a finite number of scoring locations, no single set of locations can be that important. |
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I think it's a great idea for an alliance to have a "Fetcher" bot. In fact I think thats what any team that finds themselves incapable of making a successful scoring arm should be going with.
Imagine 2 robots zooming up and down the field with game pieces while another robot just sits in their alliance zone hanging the tubes that are placed in the zone to be picked up and constantly scored (ala team 469 last year). |
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I think that even if you have a fetcher bot, the scoring robot(s) should still get their tubes, but instead of scoring 1 per trip, they can now score 2. Assuming the scoring robot can pick up and place quickly, it is a waste for them to sit and wait for their partners to bring the tubes to them.
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That's definitely a good point. A "pure" fetchbot with zero ability to score would need to worry, though I do think the problems are exaggerated. As breakaway showed, once you get to a 2 offense versus one defense scenario, one robot quickly wins.
The best thing to do would be to design a robot that can score well, and if it turns out you suck at that, become a great feeder. Why do I feel like this is totally what's going to happen to Shaker? |
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Instead, I think you will see all 3 robots get tubes with only 2 of them placing. As a defender, who are you going to stop? Probably their best placer, while letter the fetcher go free because it cannot score. |
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I agree that an alliance can get it its own way and thus easier to defend, but I don't think that is unique just for alliances with a feeder/fetcher. All tube placing alliances will need to spread out and not get in each others way. |
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Zebra bot and scoring zone bot stay on the same side so that the bot racing back and forth can have a vertical peg row all to its self.. This is if the defense they are throwing at us is avoidable. |
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To anyone building a fetch bot: A. How long does it take for you to get a tube from the feeding station to the robot waiting on you and back to the feeding station? B. How long do you think it takes for a team to pick up that tube and place it on the rack and be prepared to pick up another tube? C. If A>B then the strategy is somewhat wasteful because it has a team sitting there waiting for your robot to bring the next piece when they could be getting their own piece. Lets say it takes 15 seconds for the average team to pick up the tube, place it, and go back down to pick up the next one. For a fetch bot to simply drive the length of the field and back(no time needed to pick up/release tube) it would have to drive 7.2 feet per second. This seems reasonable if there isn't any other robots in your way the entire trip. If you want to consider they won't be traveling in a straight line and will probably run into opposition along both ways, and that they have to slow down to grab the tube and slow down to drop the tube and the time to simply turn around, I think your talking more like 10 feet per second necessary even if they only drive 2/3 of the way. This is possible. But all of that is assumed 15 seconds to pick up the tube. What if they take less? They sit and wait. That isn't very productive, instead they could be getting their own tubes. That is why alot of the veterans aren't really opting for the idea of a fetcher as their sole means of getting tubes. Sure, having a robot that fetches and leaves the tube there for you to pick up when you get back with your own tube is somewhat helpful, but a robot that can score that tube on the bottom row is going to be far more of an asset because they can continue to get their own tubes and so could you. No need to pick up the same tube twice. I'm not saying the idea of a fetcher is bad. In theory I like it, but I just don't see it being a viable contender unless your robot is going very fast. In fact, if you do manage getting it to go fast enough, build to dodge well and prepare for some serious collisions. I'd be surprised if a defense bot wouldn't be willing to "take one for the team". |
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@Molten: But if the time to score is less than the time required to fetch, the team whose job it is to score can afford to take part off the match--say, the first 20 seconds, when defense is the most important since the top goals aren't full--off to play defense.
Also, keep in mind that with the two-feeder strategy it's the sum of the two feeding rates that matters. I don't think the bottleneck will be the scorer running out of tubes; rather it'll most likely be the feeders giving too many. |
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History shows us that few teams will be able to effectively quickly score on the top pegs at regionals especially in week one. So strategy will constantly evolve as always. Most matches will have only one or even no effective top peg scorer that can also pick up from the floor. In that case a fetcher would be useless. But that same useless fetcher will be scouted by the top teams and can become very valuable as the second pick for eliminations.
A good early regional finals alliance might consist of one Scorer and one feeder working together with a third robot running defense or interference. The scorer gets their own tubes and also places the tubes provided by the fetcher. Defensive robot is either providing picks for the scorer/fetchers or playing defense against other alliance. Having said all that, I never want to design a robot that's goal is to be that second pick. |
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I don't think a fetcher would work well in a fetcher+2xhangers alliance setup. There's just not enough flexibility to respond to situations on the field, and the fetcher's utility is diminished towards the end of the match if it has done its job very well.
For a strictly 'fetcher' bot (good name btw), I would say a reliable fetch and a reliable minibot are a must. The allliance would be composed of a good hanger, a good fetcher, and a defensive robot (who should also have a minibot). The Hanger and the Fetcher gather tubes for the first minute minute or so (2-3 trips each) at which point the Hanger begins hanging and the Fetcher keeps fetching. At that point we're looking at 6-9 tubes available for hanging (more under no defense), with minibot options for endgame. The idea here is to prevent clutter in the scoring zone by only keeping 1 robot in the scoring zone during Hanging, thus freeing up the other 2 robots to do other tasks (fetch, defense, minibot) and still having a viable option to respond to the opposing alliance. Thus, to incorporate it all into requirements for a fetcher bot: -- Fast, as in, able to minimize the time traversing from one safe zone to the other (12+ fps for heavy bot, 14-16 fps if it's like 148's 2008 bot) -- Able to avoid defense: either a small footprint + agile drive train (tumbleweed) OR a heavy robot + drive train shifting to push through defense -- Effective pickup mechanism from the far side (Quick, "smart alignments" etc) -- Can signal to the HP which game piece it wants -- Can snipe opponent tubes from the floor -- Effective drop-off mechanism on the close side ("drive-by" delivery desired) -- An effective MINIBOT that always gets at least 10 points -- Competent drive team that can place tubes in the position desired by the Hanger bot (e.g. all triangles in 1 area while all circles in another; yet directly deliver the squares to the Hanger bot so they're placed immediately) |
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Its probably not going to make a huge difference but in a 2 minute match, you have to be as effecient as possible. |
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Here is a question what would a feeder need to be able to do in order to be valuable?
Assuming a 2 scoring 1 feeding scenario, Is getting a tube into the alliances zone every 7 - 10 seconds good enough? |
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I want to emphasize OVER. The width of the offensive zone is pretty small and it will probably be pretty easy for a defender to keep your robot from physically getting into the zone. If you can throw the tubes OVER the defender and into the zone, that would be highly valuable. |
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OVER! and in reguard to your defense question, they can not play defense if we never leave our lane... :)
without a mini bot How open are you to taking orders from another team? Although I think that there is fundamentally something wrong with this question but I have seen some teams dominate an alliance and order around other teams. That aside however we will work with other teams, for this to work we need work together. This design is based around team work. Do you have a system worked out to make sure you always bring the tube that is needed? NOt necesary the tubes come so fast in a pre determined order |
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"Fetcher" would have some serious problems if its alliance partners could not score effectively. :eek:
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If you have a chance, I'd at least have the capability to deploy a variety of minibots. That way you can at least deploy another teams even if your not committed to be able to make one yourself. |
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Regardless of whether you pile them up or not, you still have to get each piece one at a time, with or without defense. On another note, I would never go for a 2 scorer, 1 fetch strategy. There's a reason why there are two loading stations. Idle time is a waste of time. |
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how about this?
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You can do a lot more good with human player flinging, a couple of fast / powerful bots herding/carrying into the scoring zone and letting a very accurate mechanum place them as high as possible. I don't worry about the time it takes to unload/reload. If the mechanum can load a part every 20 seconds, the top row is covered. If it can load every 10 seconds, top two rows are covered. 6.66 seconds covers all pegs. I think with two fast / agile bots gathering and delivering, a single scorer is enough. Be nice if the gatherers could launch mini's successfully so that the mechanum can continue to score right to the end. |
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From our experience in Rack N Roll, a miss-thrown tube can be a game killer.
Anyone who thinks they (or their robot) can throw a tube "accurately" 15 feet is dreaming. SO think it through..... First: These tubes are not alliance-coded (like rack N roll), so the opposing alliance can pick them up and score them as well. So a tube that doesn't go at least half way across the field benefits the opposing alliance more. Second: The one-tube possesion rules makes it EXTREMELY dangerous to get a tube airborne. If your tube lands ON your alliance partner and can't be removed, you've just killed their scoring ability. If your tube lands ON your opponent it may kill their scoring ability, or it may not sice teams cannot force penalties on the opposing alliance. You may even be penalized for that by some future rule. In Rack N Roll, we had an over-eager alliance PARTNER toss a tube which landed on our robot and couldn't be removed. Match lost..... Guess who got scratched from our scouting list? Probably hurt our chances as well. Phil. |
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