Update #3
 

Update #3 is out. Update #3

Pipe is now 1.74"

Re: Update #3
 

Doesn't look too ground breaking. The exact method for calculating servo power is really nice, and so are the clarifications for tape and the pole material.

Oh, and servos on the mini-bot are pretty nifty too.

Re: Update #3
 

I thought the wording change on <R92> C. No more then one 12V rechargeable...

It used to say exactly. Are some teams not using a battery?

Re: Update #3
 

Slip rings are no longer disparaged.

Re: Update #3
 

::rtm:: So we can use cylinders and tanks other than those included in the KOP...

Re: Update #3
 

I wonder how one would control a servo without a NXT and FTC servo controller? Can you control them with simple switches like you would a motor?

Re: Update #3
 

Note the change to <G07>:

This seems to leave open the possibility that you could stage a LOGO PIECE on your ROBOT instead of an UBERTUBE during PRE-MATCH. I can see this being useful if your AUTONOMOUS program is not functioning, to get you in good position for the start of TELEOPS.

I guess the question then is how many LOGO PIECES are actually available for each match? Just enough to equip each FEEDER STATION with 3 sets in accordance with <G10>, or enough to meet that requirement plus more? I've been assuming the former, but don't have any justification for that assumption.

Thoughts?

Re: Update #3
 

Hmmm, so the FTC lego power switch isn't allowed? We were using that to activate the minibot motors...

Edit: oh wait it is a tetrix part, phew. Its just mounted on lego parts.

Re: Update #3
 

Please pardon my terrible vocabulary, but even after a google search I am still confused by what you mean by this:confused: . Are they now leagal??

Re: Update #3
 

Very good question... especially with <G19> pretty much forbidding anything but the battery from providing the energy to move up the pole.

Re: Update #3
 

Per the update (see link on OP):
emphasis mine.

Re: Update #3
 

I smell more changes to MINIBOT rules on the horizon.

Also: Are the Tetrix servos of any added value to providing the MINIBOT with upward motion, supplementing the Tetrix motors?

EDIT: Furthermore: YAY! Slip Rings! Teams can finally deal with wires on rotating masses in ways they should have been able to 10+ years ago.

Re: Update #3
 

No, it doesn't. <G06> is still in effect. The modified language just fixes a logic error in the old phrasing that could have been interpreted to mean that game pieces other than ubertubes might not be allowed on the field during the match.



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Re: Update #3
 

Have magnets have disappeared from the list of approved components?

Bob

Re: Update #3
 

<G06> only states that each ROBOT must be in contact with one UBERTUBE, it does not prohibit a ROBOT being in possession of a LOGO PIECE at the start of the match.

I had a similar initial reaction to the change. Then I though that if that were the intent of the change, it would have made more sense to remove the "or during the MATCH" phrase instead of changing UBERTUBE to GAME PIECES, especially since this is in the Pre-Match section of the rules.

Re: Update #3
 

Here come the Unicorns!

Re: Update #3
 

No, it and one other item rolled over to page 4.

Re: Update #3
 

Technically, maybe, but you would receive a penalty for being in control of more than one game piece. Sorry, don't have the rule number handy.

Re: Update #3
 

I am going to trust dave on this one, since he is on the game design committee. Reason being: You would be herding / possessing multiple game pieces.
(See <G34>)

Re: Update #3
 

Would <G34> really come into play here? Does "contact" equal "control"?

Here's the scenario I was considering:

Your AUTONOMOUS program is not working.
You place the UBERTUBE in contact with the back bumper (closest to CENTER LINE) and place a LOGO PIECE in your GAME PIECE manipulator.
When TELEOPS begins, you move your ROBOT forward to HANG the LOGO PIECE.

In this situation, is the ROBOT really in "control" of the UBERTUBE? The ROBOT is stationary, thus not HERDING (as I understand the term), nor is it in POSSESSION. When it starts moving, it immediately moves away from the UBERTUBE.

Not trying to nitpick, just trying to understand. (Isn't it amazing how the same words can have such different meanings for different people?)

Re: Update #3
 

<G34> would not come into play. However, the reason for that is much simpler than contact on the back bumper...

<G10> states that each feeder station starts with 3 sets of logo pieces. Put one on a robot, and <G10> is violated. Someone comes out before the match, retrieves the logo piece from your robot, and takes it to the station that's missing one.

Re: Update #3
 

i agree with you...

G06 states that EACH ROBOT MUST be in contact with one UBERTUBE so you have no choice... even if your robot HAS no autonomous it must be in contact with an ubertube and contact with two tubes might be considered possession... although I am not sure of that..

I can't really recall any other game that allowed you to indiscriminately put game pieces into play at the beginning of the match unless specifically stated in the rules.

If you follow the same logic, there is no prohibition of having a player hang game pieces on your rack before the game either... it doesn't say you can't... lol

( I am being facetious here.... )
Clearly the spirit of the game is ubertubes in contact and putting game pieces into play at teleop...

One interesting strategy for a robot with no autonomous would be to place their robot next to the opposing team's feeder zone and put the uber tube mostly in the feeder zone so that it blocks a robot from coming in ... without, of course, having the robot itself in the zone which would be a penalty...

Re: Update #3
 

Just a few notes, Despite the change to say no more than one battery, <G19> as amended in update one still stands.

Also, despite the change to <G07>, <G06> and <G34> are still in effect and their combined effect limits the implications, but more importantly, the interaction of the changed <G07> and the unchanged <G10> when added to the unchanged <G06> and <G34>, that which is on the field before the match remains completely unchanged from the original rules, all that this change does is it removes the apparent prohibition of the feeders feeding game pieces onto the field.

Additionally, with the addition of slip rings as an allowable component. It would seem like "Unicorn Drive" is not as impossible as it once was.

EDIT: I was unable to post for a while due to technical issues. Unfortunately, that has made this post redundant since almost every idea has already been mentioned.

Re: Update #3
 

Slip rings have been legal in various past years.

Re: Update #3
 

So we can indeed use as many air supply tanks as we want/need without limit?

Re: Update #3
 

<G10> states that each station must have 3 sets. As I mentioned in my original question, your interpretation of <G10> assumes that there are only 12 sets of logo pieces, with no extras beyond what is required by <G10>. I don't recall seeing that specified in the rules.

If it is the case that there are only 12 sets of LOGO PIECES available in a MATCH and the intent of the game is that the ROBOTS cannot have access to the LOGO PIECES until TELEOPS begins, then I understand and concede to your intepretation of the changein Update 3.

Re: Update #3
 

<G13> is still in effect, prohibiting TEAM members from touching GAME PIECES during AUTONOMOUS, meaning they cannot put the LOGO PIECES into play until TELEOPS begins.

Re: Update #3
 

If our team was gonna use magnetic ball bearings, would they consider those magnets or ball bearings?

Re: Update #3
 

Ok - so at roughly 3.5 W per servo...... we're now in a race to see how many servos we can add to a minibot......

I sense a rule clarification coming :)

http://www.ranchbots.com/club/papers...20Rotation.pdf

Re: Update #3
 

I sense R47 applies to those servo's as well, and making them continous rotation involves modifying internals vs the allowed output shaft tweaks, so work on your ratcheting mechanisms.

Re: Update #3
 

Tetrix sells "continuous rotation servos" so.. yeah.

Re: Update #3
 

This is what i get for completely ignoring FTC,

actually in update 3, they linked the allowed "tetrix" parts to this link
http://www.tetrixrobotics.com/Buildi....aspx?moid=533

and that only links the "180 deg" servo, so..not sure

Re: Update #3
 

Our notional minibot design has gone from a launched PVC tube...to a couple of motors, a battery, and a couple wheels...to 15lbs of servos (assuming continuous rotation servos are allowed and can contribute to upwards motion per <G19>).

Why do I have a feeling that this isn't the last time the minibot rules will be revisited :D

Re: Update #3
 

I'm willing to bet that adding continuous rotation servos would have a net negative effect on the speed of the robot at some point, factoring in battery draw and weight...