Re: Team Update 4
 

You would tell them the same thing that you would tell them if you burnt out a BaneBots motor, but couldn't use the globe sitting on the shelf. Why can't we use a different 12V battery that is the same size and same weight but not the specific model*? Now, I'm not sure what the response would be, but it's the same kind of thing.

We all knew that there was controversy regarding the use of catapults. There should have been some kind of discretion applied to designing a catapult before it was clarified. It was going to be legal, or was not, and it turned out to be not. It was simply a chance that was taken. Same situation as the idea of using a vacuum in 2009, if you'd like to look at it that way.

*Motors and batteries are not my forte. Maybe that example isn't quite accurate, but you should see the intent.

----------

I'm so sad to see our happy FIRST community fall apart because of this.

Re: Team Update 4
 

You could tell them that sometimes in FIRST / work / school / relationships / customers / bosses / employees / governments / (fill in the blank) that we have rules and restrictions and limitations that we don't necessarily agree with or understand, and that we have a choice in how we deal with those situations. And you can teach them that when we are in those situations, we can work to find solutions or we can complain.

You could tell them that you don't agree with the rules that have been put in, but that you are going to work within them. And then later you could write a letter to FIRST, explaining your concerns.

And you could read some of the recent posts on this forum and ask what types of Mentors and Role Models some of us are being to those students who are on here reading.

Re: Team Update 4
 

Without directly addressing any of the overblown complaints evident in this and other threads regarding minibots, I would just like to remind everyone:

THERE IS NO CRYING IN ROBOTICS!!!

There has been a number of posters implying they are done with FIRST because of the harsh requirements of minibots. Booo hoooo! I tell you what, the whining gets louder every year, and THAT is what may drive me away. Download the rules, build your robot, and compete. Simple.

Re: Team Update 4
 

It's not falling apart.

Jane

Re: Team Update 4
 

I don't see the FTC issue as that significant. Like others have said- it was part of the kit minus the cost of shipping. The change in control systems or the change to Jaguars in the kits was an order of magnitude more significant an impact.

If the minibot challenge had required an NXT, then they would have been getting into the significantly annoying area.

Those that use all the aluminum from their TETRIX kit are probably going to be dissatisfied with how heavy their minibots get.

----
That said- the moralizing in the rule update was inappropriate.
Rule books are for rules.

Oops- they made a little mistake... go built a robot-

Everyone already knew starting a FLL team or league were milestones for a Chairman's application- but there are plenty of non-FIRST related milestones that count as well.

Re: Team Update 4
 

There seems to be a lot of lingering bad blood that won't go away, but I think the reason more people might take issue is the clarification following the update: "Supporting FIRST means supporting FTC and FLL and their kits." This is true, but I think many teams "support culture change" with Vex, and take offense to the implication that FIRST is the only way to "change culture." I don't think FIRST is saying that... but I think many are taking it as an implicit assumption.

In the thread I linked to above was an IFI press release, saying that TSA had chosen Vex as their robot kit of choice. The thread title was "VEX beats Tetrix and others in bid to develop a robotics competition for the TSA". Dave pointed out that turf wars are a waste of everyone's time, because only about 5% of American high school students have access to FIRST's programs (and other nations are probably in the same ballpark). We are best served by reaching outwards.

Another good quote:

Re: Team Update 4
 

Amen. What tiny fraction of the FIRST community frequent CD with any regularity, if at all? And what tiny fraction of those thus far have voiced their displeasure at this issue? And how many of those displeased enough to voice their displeasure will stop participating in FIRST because of it?

Not many, methinks.

Personally, I'd be a lot happier if they just kept the speeches at kickoff and Championship shorter (and fewer in number). Enforcing a brand is just something I've come to expect from everyone...

...now if they'd only get a linear solenoid manufacturer as a sponsor, that's a "gee do we have to use those" I could get solidly behind!

Re: Team Update 4
 

So, yes, the restrictions suck. Is it unfair? Maybe.

However, FIRST does a fabulous job of preparing us students for real life. In "real" life there are restrictions that you might find unneccessary. There are often situations that you find "unfair." Yet with all those times I have yet to find a situation where complaining has solved the problem. Instead, rise above and make do what what you have.

"You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes
You just might find
You get what you need"
-Rolling Stones

I've always found this a meaningful reminder.. and a good song.:)

In the end you have to make a decision. You can make a mini-bot that complies with the rules, or you can not make one at all.

Re: Team Update 4
 

To go along with Curtis, I don't think we'd even be having this discussion--or the other several on this topic--if the kit of choice for the Minibot had been the FLL kit.

But because of the statement about supporting the kits, a lot of people are rather annoyed. Ideals? Sure. Programs? Eh, maybe... OK, can do. Kits? Hey, wait a minute! You mean the kit I left behind when [you fill in the rest]? No way.

If anyone from FIRST is reading this: I think a politic thing to do would be to retract the "and their kits" part of that statement, as soon as practical. That would go a long way towards un-ruffling the feathers that were ruffled by that statement. (Oh, and having FLL be the program of choice for support nest year would also help.)

I'm not actively involved with FRC, FTC, FLL, or VRC, for the record.

Re: Team Update 4
 

I have 2 questions:

1. What is so ruffling about "and their kits"?
2. Who is making this a seeming political situation?

FIRST recognizes its partnerships with its vendors/suppliers/sponsors. Why should that change now? Any impact the minibot potentially has is recognized through these partnerships or through the application of rules in the manual and updates that state what can be used or what can not be used, should teams choose to build one.

There's nothing complicated or upsetting about it.

Edit: I have a 3rd question -
Has anyone given any serious thought as to how this particular game is honoring Jack Kamen? I have a few ideas but I have glimpsed very few ideas/suggestions of others here in CD and how, by honoring Dean Kamen's father, we are all committed to playing the game and following the rules as they are intended.

Jane

Re: Team Update 4
 

Just to be clear, the restriction is not really what bothers me this moment. It's stupid and blatantly targets Vex aluminium, but I understand that restrictions are part of the game, and they make it fun / challenging / etc. If the update ended there, I'd be upset but move on. The part of the post I quoted is what really pushed me as slimy politics.

What's ruffling about "and their kits" in particular is that FIRST has equated believing in its ideals with giving a particular vendor money. They said more or less that if you love FIRST you should be buying Lego's kits. That is what's absolutely infuriating above all else. So because I don't like FTC, and I don't want to buy their in my opinion inferior kit, I don't support FIRST? If they really don't want my support just because I disagree on a platform of choice for something - I don't know what to say anymore.

Honestly, it looks like Lego is pushing FIRST's buttons here.

Re: Team Update 4
 

Ok I am not sure what all the whining is about but I look at it this way...
1. You don't have to build a minibot if you chose not to..it would be a mistake not to though.
2. You received that kit (1/2 of it) for the price of shipping.
3. You don't have to use the NXT if you don't want to.
4. This is an important anniversary year for FIRST. I look at it as a celebration on all levels.
5.You get to build 2 robots this year!! YES!!!!
6. Most of us ( or at least I hope we do) support at least 1 FLL team. If you don't then you need to jump on the bandwagon. This is your farm team for FRC!!
7. Yes maybe FIRST could have worded it better..but hey there have been times when all of us could have worded something better...except me I am the Queen of Perfectland!!!!
8. All the time you spent on here complaining, you have had that mini up and running. 1 of my former FLL kids who is now FRC had it together in a couple hours and shimming up the pole.
9. VEX isn't Textris...as much as I would like to use those parts they aren't part of FIRST anymore.
10. Welcome to the real world boys and girls!! Work can change on a dime are we going to suck it up or whine to the boss!!!!

There I had my say... NOW GET OUT THERE AND BUILD BUILD BUILD!!!!! :D

Re: Team Update 4
 

EXACTLY!!!

Re: Team Update 4
 

Is it just me, or has everybody not read the note about the edit to R92-H?
"The original intent of R92-H was to allow teams to use raw aluminum. We appreciate that the intent was not clear in the original verbiage, and for that, our apologies. Throughout the process, and especially in public statements, we have been transparent and unambiguous that the minibot is an opportunity for FIRST to prominently feature and reflect support for our family of programs. This is a golden opportunity to show that support, and we have taken advantage of it. We were clear in our comments at kickoff that we are using this competition, in part, to support FTC and FLL. There is no secret plan; it is a wide open plan. Supporting FIRST means supporting FTC and FLL and their kits."
It's not that big of a deal, guys. Saying your team isn't a FIRST team anymore is radical. Kids like me who love everything about FIRST and the impact on our lives do not want to hear about everything that's allegedly bad about robotics. For people like me, this is my life. And I don't want to hear all this bashing on the most influential, educational, and inspirational program in the history of programs steered towards the kids of the future. We just need to ignore this. It's just words in the 4th team update. And I think 20 years worth of actions speak louder than update #4's worth of words. If the mentors can't get over the clarifications of the GDC that has brought the world more kid-based, STEM related field influence in the history of the world, how can you expect a kid to not do the same?

Re: Team Update 4
 

I'm not going to say I like what is said any more then the next guy. I could go on about politics and my dislike of the move and everything as has already been said. Instead I have a different message to leave.

THANKS

Yes, thanks for treating us like adults and coming out and stating your motives for once. At least they openly stated it without doubt and aren't hiding from the truth. They thought enough of us to not lie or hide the facts or to simply ignore us. I'd prefer this had been placed in the original manual, but I'm just glad that they came out and said it.

To anyone at FIRST that reads this, don't mistake it for gratitude of the message. Just gratitude for you actually saying it.