5th Gear
 

Does anybody have any info about the 2011 version of 5th gear? Is there an estimated date of release, or anything like that?

Re: 5th Gear
 

There's no official release date set, yet I do know the 5th Gear guys have been hard at work. If Blake doesn't get on here, I'll ping on him about it in the next day or so.

As a general rule of thumb, they don't like to release it until at least Week 4 of the build season. They don't get the rules ahead of time, so that basically gives them 4 weeks of time to develop the rulesets/models/etc into the sim. It also gives plenty of time for teams to come up with their own designs such that they shouldn't be influenced by the designs they see in the sim. Quite literally, they've had to code in 'magic' to the simulation robots to get their nuances to work properly in the PhysX engine. Unfortunately, that just doesn't translate into the real world. Go figure :rolleyes: silly software guys get all the easy stuff.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Thanks a bunch, that info really helped.

Re: 5th Gear
 

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16670

I was up until 2:00 last night.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Thanks for all the hard work Blake. It's awesome you guys do this for us.

David

Re: 5th Gear
 

Thank us when we finish, not before. ;)

and... You can sleep when you are dead.

Blake
PS: You are welcome

Re: 5th Gear
 

Ignore this post until you're done. (I'll be to busy playing 5th gear then to post)

Thanks a ton!

Re: 5th Gear
 

I'd like to thank Blake and the rest of the 5th Gear team for not releasing the software until after my first exams.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Folks,

In addition to doing Chris a favor ;), we had a few thing to iron out; but...

I am going to stick my neck out and say that the initial release is literally hours away (should be less than [Edit] 48 [/Edit]). We have it "built", We are in the process of getting it onto/into a couple of download sites. Watch this thread for a link announcment.

If you are at the San Antonio or New Jersey Regionals LM folks are going to set up 5th Gear there.

I'm bracing my self for the inevitable flood of bug reports and requests for improvements - Go ahead and fire away once you have used it a little bit - First releases can always use improvement.

After a quick search in this thread, please post new bugs/requests here and David, Jim and I will get to them as soon as we can.

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

I see what you did there. Sneaky.

Re: 5th Gear
 

LM had our 5th Gear logomotion running all day Friday and will again be set up all day Saturday at the New Jersey regional. Stop by and be one of the first to try it out! (We also have some cool prizes too!) The San Antonio Regional should also have 5th Gear running Saturday.

As with any first release there are some issues to overcome but the 5th Gear team has done a great job getting this ready. Hopefully they'll be comfortable with a public release soon so more people can try it out. I know many people asked today if they could get Logomotion yet.

As a side note... Blake I sent an e-mail (work address) out about half an hour ago with some of the issues we encountered today. No show stoppers thankfully.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Anyone have the link were I can get the 5th gear download? Sounds like it was working at the regionals.

Re: 5th Gear
 

We have submitted requests to have it posted on both the WPI Think Tank and a public-facing Lockheed Martin site. We are waiting for the admins at both locations to approve the requests and thereby let the public (you) begin downloading it.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Mr. Ross, do you know if they're exhibiting the 5th Gear software at the Peachtree Regional again? We, over at CircuitRunners Robotics, have been the ones helping to set up and run the 5th Gear program for 2009 & 2010 at Peachtree with LM, but we haven't heard anything from LM, GeorgiaFIRST, or Jim Rundquist.

Re: 5th Gear
 

With all the hectic fun of FRC build season, I can certainly understand if you haven't heard anything directly from Jim, but fear not; he has been writing code for the simulator this year (feel free to ask him why he either created or didn't already fix any bugs you find); and he has the Peachtree Regional in his sights.

So, "Yes", at Peachtree 5th Gear will be available for fun and for challenging other teams/mascots to contests in its vritual world.

Blake
PS: THANK YOU Circuit Runners for all of your help at the World Championships that were hosted in Atlanta. That will be a tough act to follow now that the Worlds will be in St Louis.

Re: 5th Gear
 

I'm (not so) patiently awaiting this software's release, hoping that we can use it for driver training before our regional this Thursday.

How long do you anticipate it will take to get approved on one of the two websites? If someone were to provide temporary public hosting for the file, would you be willing to pass it along? :)

Re: 5th Gear
 

Folks,

Go here (WPI's Think Tank pages) now for the initial 2011 5th Gear release: http://thinktank.wpi.edu/article/141

Once again - A BIG THANK YOU to WPI for their generous donation of downloading services that complement our LM download site.

Ignore the "2010" in the Think Tank page title (we need to change it from 2010 to 2011).

Please take notes on bugs you find, but also please give us a chance to post a list of known bugs (soon) before we fill this thread with duplicates. Once we put up our list, if you have more bugs/requests to add, then please do post them here. We expect a modest number of those reports. Like you guys & gals building the robots, we very nearly have to ship/release as soon as we finish coding and modeling; so our testing plans often get the short end of the stick...

Enjoy!

Blake
PS: If you want to tell us you like 5th Gear; or especially if your team thinks it is a useful strategy/planning tool, or is a useful practice tool for drivers, coaches, and/or scouts; you have my permission ;) to post those messages any time - no need to wait!

Re: 5th Gear
 

I like 5th Gear and think it is a useful strategy/planning tool, as well as a useful practice tool for drivers, coaches, and/or scouts. :D

Re: 5th Gear
 

Thanks for the hard work! There, I said it after it was done this time :D

Thanx,

David

Re: 5th Gear
 

Hey I installed 5th gear, installed the latest drivers and whenever I try to start a server, the game crashes and asks me to install the latest drivers and they are the latest.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Don't worry Blake, I already have tons of bug reports for you. At least one for every FRC game, actually.

In all seriousness, thanks a ton for the release. I'm glad you guys implemented so many good new features like autonomous mode, "revolving" server / clients so you don't have to restart, and the ability to quit mid match.

Re: 5th Gear
 

You don't always want the latest drivers the OEMs (Microsoft, Nvidia, etc.) produced - You do want the "latest" drivers 5th Gear expects. Let's see if that is the cause of your symptom.

I/we are using:

.Net 3.5 SP1. You can get it from here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/e...displaylang=en

DirectX 9.0c. You can get it from here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/e...1-50ceb6d8fa8d

You need to use XNA 3.1. You can get it (actually you an MS installer package) from here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/e...1-98eb3e799ef2

You need to use Nvidia PhysX 9.10.0513. You can get it from here:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/physx-9...13-driver.html

Xbox controller (we use WIRED, not wireless, controllers) drivers are found here: http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/do...ategory=gaming
We have not tested using wireless controllers.

Notice that (for example) .Net 3.5 SP1 isn't the latest .Net version Microsoft offers. If you use later or earlier versions, you are diverging from what we develop on. Later versions of it (or of any of the other pre-reqs) should offer "backward" compatability, but I wouldn't bet my paycheck on it.

Let us/me know how this stacks up against what is in your computer and/or what happens if you switch to using exactly what I listed above.

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

NOTE TO EVERYONE INSTALLING:

If you are using the installation instruction linked on the WPI Think Tank page, the link to the XNA redistributable in the document is the WRONG version. 5th Gear needs the 3.1 XNA redistributable and the 3.0 redistributable is the one linked in the document. The correct XNA redistributable is at http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/e...1-98EB3E799EF2

Installing 3.0 on my machine caused 5th Gear to not open at all. Installing 3.1 fixed this problem immediately.

Rangel - this could be causing your error.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Thanks, after installing this specific nvidia driver, it started working. Awesome Simulator. My favorite so far. Also, the turning for the robots are a little slow. Their entire overall speed of the robots could be increased as well.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Yikes! - I have passed this info to David, the colleague who revised the instrcutions and pushed them up into the WPI site this year. Obviously, he/we will revise them.

Thanks! Deetman.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Bug/Request/Observations list from the week 1 regionals

Robots turn too slowly when responding to Xbox Controller (instead of keyboard).
The field's graphics models creep out of position over time. - We have a fix for this and will deploy it soon.
Rapidly issuing several throw requests from an Xbox controller crashes the server.
The triangle is "jumpy" when held by the liftbot.
Tubes can become unrealisticly entangled with the robot physics.
Alt-Tabbing out of a Fullscreen client makes the Field and Game Pieces disappear.
Client and Server score mismatch is not explained by the legends/titles on the screens.
Individual robots' scores on the Server are all zeros.
Robots sometimes (fall to the floor and) move erratically at the start of a match.
The Armbot arm can get stuck in the floor.
The Armbot arm is diffcult to control with the Xbox controller.
Occasional unhandled exceptions due to exceeding the size of a collection.
Interrupting the Client LM intro video between matches causes client rejections later.
Too easy to get stuck on top of tubes.
Too hard to pick up tubes with Armbot.
Hard to get tubes from feeding slots.
Easy to get stuck in the Feeder lanes.
Arcade drive turns better than Tank drive.
Strafing is too slow.
Screen graphics mismatched with physics (graphics model creep? - See above).

Re: 5th Gear
 

This isn't exclusive to the Xbox controller, at least in my experience. It's a very strange bug that depends a lot on robot configuration and the game you're playing.

For Logomotion, the lifter takes at least 5 seconds to turn 90 degrees using either the controller or the keyboard. The armbot can turn quickly, if the arm is retracted over the robot base. What I theorize is happening is that the game is calculating turning speed as a function of wheelbase length. That's why armbot turning speed drops dramatically with an extended arm holding a tube.

For Lunacy, robots are simply unable to turn. The trailer also has a dramatic amount of "pull" on the robot.

To a lesser extent, this can happen with the armbot and the square or triangle, but only under some seemingly random circumstance.

Just a note for people playing: You can "unstick" the arm by backing up, then raising it one "click".

-----

Now for some of my bug reports:

Logomotion:

• Arm robot cannot score on the top row. I don't know if the claw is able to extend upward or something, but I have yet to get a tube on the top row with the arm robot.
• White tubes on the middle rack are particularly sensitive. Placing them usually results in no point increase, or it will alternate between scored and not scored. The white tube can be scored by jamming it behind the field model in a physically impossible way, but right now it almost never counts. I have not tested to see if this applies to all racks.
• Deploying a minibot early results in a 3 point penalty - this is not part of the game. The tower is simply disabled.

Overdrive: Just one! Balls that leave the field never return. They just roll off into the abyss. This makes the game kinda boring. :P

Lunacy: See above comment about turning. The game is not playable.

Breakaway: In the past, if a player rapidly hit the ball return key, some balls would roll along the edge of the player station then fall into the front zone. Now, these balls roll all the way down the edge of the player station and permanently off the field, into the abyss.

---

Please don't take my list as a scathing criticism of this software. I love it and enjoy using it!

Re: 5th Gear
 

Bugs aside, me gusta mucho <3 got to the point where I started up my own server just to play with one player (me :)) I'll def. be playing this on Sunday-Wednesday when there aren't any regionals to be watching.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Understood & Thanks.

FYI - The "old" games originally were each an individual work of art, we used different physics hacks to get each to play reasonably well. Over the summer we converted them to all use the same robot physics - We now need to get each to play well by changing parameters and not the rules of the physics. That will take some time to get right.

FYI - Yes, deploying the Minibot early in a real tournament in the Quals gets you carded, and that card stays with you. Deploying a 5th Gear Minibot early, or on an opponent's tower, would not have a similar effect, because nothing / no one is going to keep track of the proper real-world penalty (a card) after the 5th Gear match is over.

Assessing a 3 point penalty in 5th Gear matches is a compromise that inflicts some pain beyond simply not winning the race. The actual size of the penalty (0 to N points) is something we can tweak if folks don't like the current setting. We need something that deters misbehavior as strongly as a real card would in a real match.

When I originally chose the magnitudes of 5th Gear Yellow and Red Card penalties, I think I set them at 10 and 30 points respectively. Someone more cheerful and forgiving than I ;) must have toned them down a bit.

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

Gracias y de nada!

Re: 5th Gear
 

i am getting an error that says it has an uhandled exception: unexpected error occured...it won't even load. I have tried almost everything listed. still nothing. help please?

Re: 5th Gear
 

Your phrase "almost everything" is pregnant with possiblities. ;) Can you confirm that you have satisifed all of the softare prereqs I listed below?

In particular, the XNA and Nvidia PhysX software need to be at the rev levels I listed.

You might be able to get away with newer DirectX or .Net; but maybe not.

You might be able to use a wireless Xbox controller, but maybe not.

You might be able to use an old Xbox controller driver, but maybe not.

If you have tried almost everything listed, what is left that you haven't done?

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

Thanks Blake!

Am I the only one having issues getting tubes on the field? Do you have to hit one key? All keys? I can only seem to get one to 2 tubes on the field and they come on random.

I got it! I like how the time between a tube appearing and when I ask for it isn't exact like it is on the field!

Re: 5th Gear
 

You have to wait about three seconds.

I only use the throw command or the punch command, I don't use the reach-into-the-feeder command.

Re: 5th Gear
 

In a real match if you request a real tube from a real human does it immediately teleport onto the field?....

There is a delay between the request and the delivery. To experiment with it:
Go to one side of the field and request one tube. Sit and wait. See when and where it shows up.
Go to the other side, request one tube again. See when and where it shows up.
Then request one tube, change your mind quickly and request a different tube.

Then add a second player.
Put both in the quadrant/side of the field and have each request a different tube type. See where the first request comes from. See where the second request comes from.
Use several requests to exhaust one HP's inventory of a given tube type. Request one more of that type. See when and where it shows up.

Generally the tube will come from the human that is closest when the request is made. However if that human is busy satisfying a prior request and has invested a decent amount of time into the prior request, or if that human doesn't have any more tubes of the type you want, then the other human will try to satisfy the request for you.

I have a Tetris-style plan for displaying the tube requests each human is working on that I think is ready to go, but it needs some test time before I inflict it on the world, and fixing the Field graphics "creep" has been both more urgent and important.

Thrown tubes are thrown at a single (one per human) aim point with a little randomness in their speed. I will improve that code to make the aim point somewhere near (probably ahead of) the requesting robot, but that change isn't at the top of the list yet either.

I want to permit putting the humans into full auto (they choose when and what to throw), but that is rather low on the list right now. Things like manually telling the HP to quickly throw all the tubes they have left in a "storm", and being able to throw them in the way of your opponents (clogging up their lanes or their scoring zone) or toward your own scoring zone appear to be more important.

Finally, I'm curious if they delays in the current HP code are legit (Too long? Too short? Just right?). Who paid attention to the regional broadcasts last weekend (or who has time to review some recorded matches) and can tell me/us how long it takes a real HP to get from request to release when throwing, pushing, or holding a tube? What about when the requested tube type is switched in the middle of satisfying a request? How much time does that add?

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

I haven't had any time to play the new 5th gear between sleeping off Trenton and autonomus code to work on but I'll be sure to try and get a game up and give you lots of bug reports. Thanks a TON for all the time you guys put in to this, even if it does end up coming out pretty buggy.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Ouch! - I'll continue fixing them if you continue reporting them. ;)

Re: 5th Gear
 

Hmmm. After playing a lot last night it may be a bit too slow.

One thing I noticed is that the lift bot cannot score a triangle on the top row. In the field view it shows the triangle going onto the the rack but in the operator view the triangle is shaking so much it is bouncing between on the rack and underneath. When you go to release it just falls on the ground.

This is some complex stuff it is like your own 6 week challenge! Great job it is a load of fun!

Re: 5th Gear
 

I would personally go with a 1 second throw timer instead of the 3 we have now, but I don't think it's THAT important.

I'd rather the armbot could score on top and the liftbot could turn well than fixing that.

Re: 5th Gear
 

I'm having a problem installing on win 7 x64, here's the error text

I tried creating a file called eula.txt at C:\Users\Max\Downloads\5thGear_v4_0_0_369_installe r\eula\en\ and then it gave me this error

I've tried installing all the files you linked in a previous post and this is the latest 5th gear download. I have yet to try it in XP mode but this is what I've gotten so far.

Re: 5th Gear
 

I'm forwarding a copy of this report to David. He is our installer guru.

Stand by.

PS: The game does work fine on 64-bit Win7, but we have to get it installed first....

Re: 5th Gear
 

If you have human that can go from being empty-handed and watching the field/drivers, to having released/delivered a ring, in 1 second, I want to shake their hand. ;)

Come on now ... What would you say are values that match reality for Throw/Push/Hold?

And - Maybe I can create a simple way to activate super-HumanPlayer abilities and give you a 1-second option too.

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

I'm pretty sure that they can and it happened at GSR. Several knew what tubes would be needed at the start of the match and threw them out extremely fast.

Re: 5th Gear
 

OK - Maybe we can settle on a method to let 5G players request (before the match starts) a series of tubes the HP should deliver as quickly as a real human might. No argument there. But right now the simulator doesn't siumulate that process - Sorry.

Back to the more general point. Even if someone one could average 1 tube per second when delivering a few initial tubes (through the slot or shoved over the wall); the current simulator is intended to approximate what happens in the steady-state situation of someone is standing empty-handed, with nothing pre-planned, who gets a request. To satisfy the request they have to turn/reach to pick up the tube and then either put it in the slot (that would be pretty quick) or aim it, start the throwing motion, and then actually throw/release it (that would take longer). I just can't imagine that taking a little as 1 second per tube on average.

Doin' some brainstorming... How about this - In the initial 5-10 seconds of a match I/we could let you request up to 3 tubes that would be delivered very quickly, then the HP would slow down to a steady state speed that is about what we have now? The current assumption is that the HP is waiting for requests and is not (at least not successfully:)) able to anticipate what the three robots (drivers) will request.

Would that simulate the behavior you get from a real HP+Analyst? or is something else needed?

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

As far as the speed of the human player is concerned I think there is one situation where most HPs could throw tubes in under a second. In the beginning of the match, since there are little to no tubes hung, almost whatever tube the HP throws would be a good one that the robot could score. With this logic the human player could grab any random tube and not have to start empty handed and would only have to throw the tube during that 1 second.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Just curious - do you guys keep working on 5th gear through competition season?

By the way, if anyone's bored, my high score is 48 so far.

Re: 5th Gear
 

64 :)

Re: 5th Gear
 

How do you score on the top row???

Re: 5th Gear
 

Liftbot.

3 ubertubes up top, 4 squares up top, 2 mid, and a minibot.
The most I have gotten with logos is 62: 2 mid ubertubes, two mid logos, and a minibot.

I usually average 44-52.

Re: 5th Gear
 

I got my score using the armbot and mid row logos. I have to spend the last second of the match jostling the circle into the very small position where the piece scores.

Re: 5th Gear
 

We have the best of intentions, with bug fixes at the top of our to-do list; but life keeps getting in the way.

Taxes, business travel, putting on exhibits at Regionals, needing to buy a car, putting in overtime at work, vacations, etc. are all figuratively biting our ankles lately.

About the high scores, are you limiting yourselves to just scoring tubes? The minibot can quickly add 30 points to a score pretty easily.

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

Nope. I also don't use Ubertubes (I don't think the "doubling" portion of an Ubertube score is implemented yet? Plus Ubertubes aren't really tubes that I scored...)

Scoring strategies are based on several constraints in this version of the software:

• The lifter cannot score a triangle.
• The armbot cannot reach the top row. The lifter can reach all but the center pegs in the top row.
• The circle is a very sensitive piece in terms of alignment; it often fluctuates between scored and not scored.

Given that, you can either go for scoring as many squares as possible with the lift, or making mid row logos with the arm.

Re: 5th Gear
 

Ive been wondering is there any computers you can set up also nice game we are thinking about doing a demo with this game:)

Re: 5th Gear
 

This may be a silly question, but how do I play on the same computer that I'm hosting the server with? I just want to practice.
I see in the instructions is says "you should be able to give the Client instance that single computer’s Loop back IP address of 127.0.0.1" but I'm unsure of how this works/ changes.

Thanks for the help!

Re: 5th Gear
 

I'm not sure what you are not sure about.

Start two separate copies of the software.

Give either copy the job of server.

Give the other copy the job of client. On the client's main menu, in the IP address field, put in "127.0.0.1". By default, In Windows, that IP address value allows two networking programs to communicate with each other through the operating system of the computer they are on. Their messages aren't sent to networks outside that one computer.

Try it, see what happens.

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

I got it running! thanks, its way cool.

Re: 5th Gear
 

A Cheesy Poof(s) is developing a 3D physics-based simulation to use with this season VRC Gateway game. Hooray for ambitious students!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=98115

http://www.vexforum.com/showthread.php?t=57829

Blake

Re: 5th Gear
 

Errrrr... Logomotion game... How to pick up tubes? :confused:

It may be weird, but if Im bored I will usually fire up 5th gear and play the breakaway game ^^.

Re: 5th Gear
 

It seems to be the most fun of the 4 games included. I actually play breakaway a few times a week.