Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

Lat's say that you're on the Blue Alliance and there's 20 seconds left in the game. You need a red triangle to complete a logo for 36 points on your top row. There's one lying in the opponents safe lane right next to your scoring rack.



Do you grab the tube, take a 3 point penalty and score the 36 points?

Is this considered part of the game, or is any strategy that knowingly accepts a penalty considered "not GP" in FIRST?

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

Are you guarenteed to get the tube in on time if you grab it, but not if you don't?
Is your alliance partner coming with one for you to use?

If you answered yes then no, I would say go for it. :D You obviously get more points than you lose, so why not?

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

Ohhh how diabolical

Its how would I say very Bill Bellicheck

In the spirit of FIRST and as the coach for my team I would avoid such a thing out of principle. Would never command my team to do something I knew to be illegal. I would rather win straight up and if I couldnt well then.

It is a very intresting hypothetical however. I could see where this is a very plausable scenerio.

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

Now I feel bad for saying "go for it"... :(

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

Keep in mind that it is only worth 36 points if you have 3 ubertubes in the top row on the same grid (which is very impractical), and even without that piece, you still would have 12 of those points. Of course, even without any ubertubes, that last piece would give you 12 more points than you had before. If you were already losing and taking the penalty was your only way to win the match, then it would be worth it (neglecting any Gracious Professionalism considerations).

This is sorta like fouling an opponent in basketball during the last minute. Your opponent gets a few more points, but you still increase your chances of winning the game.

I would consider it more "strategical" than "unsportsmanlike" as long as the foul isn't severe. You aren't damaging or destroying an opponent's robot, just stealing one of their game pieces (which isn't really "theirs" according to the rules).

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

Dont feel bad. Everyone want to win despite what everyone claims. The competition the prospect of winning is what makes FIRST so exciting. However I have found that you sometimes learn more about yourself when you loss and when you win straight up fair and square it is that much sweeter.

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

It's an opportunity cost. Penalties that don't lead to yellow and red cards are simply costs to be factored in and are part of the game. It will cost you 3 points to have the opportunity to score 12 if it completes an Uber tube free logo on the top row. (3 points for the triangle and an additional 9 for doubling the row.) I don't see how there is anything un-GP about it. It's certainly much nicer than hitting some one with a weak gripper so hard in the middle of the field that they drop their tube, and then stealing it from them. :eek: That too however is just part of the game.

For me Gracious Professionalism is about helping other teams make their ideas work. We do everything we can to help other teams program, or lend them parts from our pit. On the field we play to win.

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

In a word, yes.

The point of the game is to hang as many logo pieces on the scoring grid as possible during the match (reference: The Manual, section 1.5). The objective is NOT necessarily to completely avoid getting any penalties ever.

Every rule has an associated penalty which asks you to assess the cost-vs-reward trade offs. A penalty is a consequence associated with an action taken during a game that has a "price" that is commensurate with the severity of the infraction. It is not a solid "never do this or we will condemn you to an eternity of ridicule" prohibition against the action. Sometimes the trade-off will work out such that the penalty associated with an action is outweighed by the net positive result associated with the action. In such cases, it is perfectly reasonable to take the penalty and the net positive result, and move on.

-dave


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Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

So, if we lose a match in which we hung more logo pieces because the other alliance won the minibot race, I can complain and say "but, part of the GDC said the point of the game was to hang as many logo pieces and didn't say anything about outscoring your opponent..." :D

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

He said the goal was to hang as many as possible, but he never said that you would win. So your complaints would be falling on deaf ears.

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

I am not part of the GDC.

Besides, The Manual says it (see Section 1.5), not me.

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Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

My bad on the GDC.

I not sure I agree that the Manual says the point is to hang as many logo pieces possible, but to maximize points their alliance's score by placing logo pieces. Its a very minor difference...

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

When did that happen!?!?!

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

And, at least in the qualifying rounds, the object is also to get spotted by other teams. For example, a team with a great defense might not have a high enough w/l ratio to be an alliance head, but still be recruited heavily. For example, my team got yellowcarded :ahh: in qualification for "egrarious robot conduct" and we were one of the top picks for finals. Again, taking a penalty can HELP you if it makes other teams notice you.:D (Just for the record, the second robot we tipped was unintentional.)

Re: Picking up a tube in opponent's Safe Zone
 

Dave, I agree with you analysis of the situation, but one thing would keep me from getting the tube without speaking to the head ref first:

Would knowingly getting a penalty to gain an advantage during the match be classified as egregious?