CIM-U-LATORS
 

Hi ChiefDelphi,

Who has bought/used a CIM-U-LATOR? How is it holding up?

Team 2502 is in need of one and if any of our brother and sisters have an extra CIM-U-LATOR, we would be willing to pay some premium to get that. The back-order for Banebots seems impossible to get around otherwise... and they won't even deliver until build season is over.

If you have an extra as a back up, it wouldn't hurt to sell us one and buy another to have it come later for back up, right? ::rtm::

Love,
On behalf of Team 2502

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We might have ordered 4 when we're using two - I'll find out.

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I really wish the globes were in this year's KOP. With the lack of availability of cimulators and no information or drawings of the transmissions until week 2, it left a sour taste in my mouth.

Also, the Globe motor for me offered a lot more than the 395's do. At least the globes had an integrated gearbox and were great for low RPM low power applications.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

team 2439 really needs some as well if anyone has any extras for the 775. banebots! thanks for the motors in the KOP but i wish you would have gave us the gearboxes with those motors because we cant do anything without them:(

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We are desperate need of a set as well. Any body out there that help us.

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Has anybody gotten one or are they just vaporware like the p60's?

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To the best of my knowledge, not a single CIM-U-LATOR or P60 has arrived at a team's doorstep this year.

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From what I've been hearing and the little information I've gotten from Banebots, it seems that the Earliest orders of both the P60's and CIMulators should be shipping late this week and early next week.

Whether or not they actually ship is a different matter.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We ordered several weeks ago and have spoken to banebots a couple of different times. I believe the last we heard they had "assured" us that they would ship by monday.

This is an extremely frustrating situation to say the least. Had we known it would take ~4 weeks for our gearboxes to arrive, we would have just designed our own. We may still even do that just to get the thing done.

-Brando

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

are the P60's for the rs550's also delayed?


or has anyone ordered through an alternate supplier?


http://www.robotmarketplace.com/prod...gearboxes.html

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

If anyone needs a P60 256:1 to use as a speed reducer in a very low torque application via a BB550, PM me. I'll double check that our extra is actually a P60 (they're from 2008, and were gently used then) and maybe we can swap for something.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We got a tracking number for our P60s saying they shipped yesterday. We ordered them during week 1. Thankfully, we only needed them for one subsystem, and designed out all the other P60s and CIM-U-LATORs we were thinking of using. So, we at least have one on the way, but I'll believe that when I actually have it in my hand...

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

All of this anecdotal data is disheartening to hear. I guess I better call Banebots and see if they are even going to get to the order we put in on January 24th. We were going to use the CIM-U-LATORS and some RS775's for the second motor in our supershifter (1 CIM, 1 RS775) because we are using 1 CIM on our elevator. (Update: I was told they should ship worse case by Monday for our order date)

I wonder which will be easier, getting these before ship date or trying to lobby the GDC to allow a 5th CIM motor like they did last year?

I will have to get with the other mentor on the team and see if we can't build our own CIMULATOR. (Though I have no idea where it could fit in our current full schedule. Ordering is much better than building in a 6 week build season) Has any team already designed one and if so do you feel like going opensource with your design?

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I'm going to do something stupid and try to design a gearbox to replace the CIMULATOR teams can make at their shops using Toughbox parts. I'll see how it goes.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I fully support this effort. SolidWorks files would be great.

I am miffed at FIRST for allowing Banebots to put us in this situation. Banebots provided four "Banebot" motors, but no gearboxes in the KOP. Most teams don't have the design or manufacturing ability to effectively use these motors without Banebot provided gearboxes. The only thing a team can do is to order from Banebots.

Banebots is failing to meet the definition of VENDOR with regard to having product available. This happened last year as well, but not to the extent as it is this year.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We received our p60's last week although ours were for the 550's. It's disheartening to hear how far behind banebots is on teams orders.

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You would be my hero!

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I am with you on the 5th Sim post it!

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If you don't mind, can you post up your order date so that other teams (including mine) can get a feel for where Banebots is at with orders?

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

WOW! I didn't realize how behind these things actually were:ahh: I hope we can get something before build is over because I'm reeealy against using those window motors for what we need them for :( hope the 5th CIM happens :D

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

January 24 at 7:30 EST. :-) I had a pretty good conversation with whoever answered the phone. Apparantly they are working 24 hours-7 days a week trying to get the orders filled. They didn't expect as big a demand on a new product.

My guess is that FIRST did not tell them that they were only allowing 4 CIMS this year. I know we wouldn't be using the Banebot motors and thus be waiting on CIMULATORS if we could have had a 5th CIM.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Im sorry but that is a total crock. FIRST included 4 different motors of theirs and they didn't expect as big a demand?? Obviously teams are going to go to the source of their motors for their gearbox solutions. I understand it is tough for businesses to anticipate an FRC season because it's 6 weeks of HIGH volume business and very little the rest of the year. However, FIRST should be getting to a point after 20 years where there is enough data to start following trends and inform suppliers/partners of anticipated demand.

Maybe FIRST should conduct a survey of where teams buy a lot of their components from.

-Brando

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Interesting.

We placed our order for P60's at 9AM EST on 1/19/11 and I do not believe it has shipped yet. I believe we fell into the earlier group of the now 10-15 day lead time so ours should be shipping soon, I guess.

Brando, I'm with you. If I were in charge of a company supplying 4 different variants of motors (Technically 6 if you count the 775-12 and the 550-B that are legal as of the new updates) to all of the nearly 2,000 teams in FRC then I would assume at least 75% of them would come back to place an order for something related to those supplied motors....

Shoot, if they're unable the order volume due to business size or staffing or whatever, then maybe they could look into having AndyMark carry their product line as well since AM doesn't really make many Gearboxes for the Smaller Motors and we know AndyMark is capable of handling the volume of build season order with a reasonable delay.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Has anyone looked into adapting AM planetary gearboxes to work with RS775 motors? What about the 550s? I'm guessing the motor shaft is a bit too short to work with in both cases...

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&highlight=775

3rd post from Paul Copioli specifically.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Our order time was 01/24/2011 13:12:46 EDT. They assured me I was in the earlier lead time. We still do not have a tracking number. We have basically given up on these arriving for our initial design. If we find they will improve our design later, maybe we will use them, but at this point we are moving on without them as best we can. Even the FP motor for the AM planetary from AM is not available yet.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

You received this motor in your Kit of Parts.

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All,

We have successfully used the AM Planetary with the RS 775. Both 217 and 148 are using the AM Planetary for their robots (and no we are not collaborating this year). IFI provides 217 with sheet metal so we returned a small part of that favor by modifying the AM input plate and the input gear to work with the RS775. We are using 4 and I think 148 is using at least 3.

I have the drawings and will post them if there are interested parties. If you are exceptionally desperate you can PM me and I can give you the address to send your plates, gears, and RS775 motors for us to modify.

Regarding the speed match ... you do not have to match at free speed if using these with CIM motors. I am using these with CIM motors and the AM gearing is just fine. Actually, if you do the math this ratio is much better for our application than matching at free speed.

Paul

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

2791 is VERY interested.

Out of curiosity, what math would one do to calculate this? What is the ideal speed to match motors at?

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I don't talk about YOUR robot...

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You two are too much! ::safety::

Paul: Posting any drawings/white papers/etc. would be most appreciated!

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We got our P60's last week. But we also ordered very early in the build season.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I hope this doesn't start a run on AM's planetaries. We started with banebots, and started engineering from there (all the while nervous, but knowing we had two other options if banebots fell flat on their face yet again).

Once we gave up on the banebots (no way to get enough for the comp bots), we've moved on to dewalts. Unfortunately for those that don't know, the standard Dewalt stuff is OOS until mid March. Unless you're very familiar with the Dewalt drills, you'd be guessing if you purchased any other than the one in Nothing But Dewalts. Not to mention a very high pricetag if the one you buy doesn't fit, and we don't have time to try twice.

Finally we've turned to Andy Mark as a last resort. I sure hope they get those planetaries in fast, but the snow storms aren't going to help. This is not a pleasing situation to be in - we're more worried about basic functions than we are about playing the game.

PS - the modification to mate the two is quite simple. Mill out a pocket in the panetary motor adapter plate so the banebots sits flush with the 4-bar-pattern already there, and open up the center hole to accept the motor hub. Clearance holes for the M4 fasteners, then push on the pinion the correct distance (measure with your calipers to get the proper gear depth). I drew it up tonight without much trouble. I had the advantage of having a planetary in front of me to measure though :)

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

In the back of my mind, I'm also having the thought of using some generic chinese cordless drill gearboxes. Might not be the strongest out there, but they're cheap, and likely come with a plain-jane 550 sized motor. The only trick would be pressing the pinion off the existing motor, or perhaps you'd get lucky, and one of the planet gears (from a second one) would be the same as the pinion needed.

Here's another good link http://kamocat.com/robot/planetary.php

Of course, this wouldn't be like a CIM, but still would be rather useful.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Sorry John ... won't happen again.

All,

Here are the two drawings. Please make sure you measure your RS775 shafts as they do vary a little.

Paul

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

"Houston, we have a problem"...........

Out in the 'real' world manufacturing / supply chain operations get something called a 'forecast'.

At some point the forecast is poured into concrete and cast into iron and that triggers events that allow the manufacturer to meet a delivery schedule at some future date. For example the clothing industry designs and makes your clothes 6 months to a year before it hits the stores.

Either it seems like BaneBots didn't get a forecast, or they just don't stock enough raw and semi-finished material and and or have enough work center capacity. Even then it is tough to accomodate a twelve billion percent increase in business.

The capacity problem isn't limited to FIRST robotics. A few years a go a glue factory in Japan caught on fire and burnt down. It was going to take months to put it back into operation. Problem was the glue from the factory was used to seal most of the worlds supply of integrated circuits. The event risked bringing down a good chunk of the planets electronic manufacturing and computer industry.

Cool minds, calm nerves, good thinking, hard work, and excellent planning solved the problem and the world hardly noticed the blip.

.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I think for the time being as my team ordered our CIM-U-LATORs late I am going to suggest just substituting an old CIM in for the applications where they will be used to get a benchmark of performance. It won't be exact nor competition legal but once the swap is made once we have the gearboxes it should be legal come our regional. It will essentially be a prototype till we can get the real things in there. I mean that's what the CIM-U-LATORs are for aren't they?

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Off-season project: How to integrate Banebots (and various other) motors with readily-available gearboxes, such as those attached to drills purchasable at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.

A bit late for this year, but absolutely necessary for next year, methinks.

This is ridiculous. According to my tracking number, I should have our Banebots order tomorrow (it left Rochester today, and we're only 50 miles away) -- after ordering on the 17th. (Some of those items at the time had a 3-5 day lead time. Others had none.)

Were this a project I was working on myself for fun, I'd simply get over it and move on with my life. As this involves "my kids", I'm quite furious about the whole thing, and will do whatever is necessary to ensure that we do not have to rely on Banebots for ANYTHING EVER AGAIN after this season is over.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

For what it's worth, Banebots just sent me an email that our CIM-U-LATORs ordered on Jan 19th PM just shipped today (Feb 2nd). That means, at least at that point, their 10 business day lead time was on the money.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Seeing as we continue to have a hard time even getting game pieces every year, I think this will continue to be a problem for quite some time.

It is bad for business to keep a large inventory. That money isn't very liquid, and you have to store the physical product, etc. If you take a look at BaneBot's building, it is not particularly large. I assume since this generation of gearbox is made in the US, that building contains both the offices & production floor.

It's hard to guess the relative company size, I can't find any guesstimates online, but they obviously aren't huge. They also offer their gearboxes in a wide variety of sizes, so it would probably be unwise for them to assemble 1,000 64:1 boxes before the season, only to find that teams order only a few of those and 1,000 of the 132:1. I've never worked in gearbox assembly, I don't know how much it costs them to produce one. But if we use $50, then producing 5000 gearboxes costs them $250,000. That is a pretty large capital outlay. I would imagine the real demand is higher than 5000 units.

As a relatively small company that I imagine deals mostly with hobbyists, they have a lot riding on their reputation. If they say they are working 24/7 to ship these puppies out the door I definitely believe them.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

At the date of order, there was a 3-5 business day lead time on p60s, and no lead time on p80s. That was 1/17/11. 3-5 was changed to 5-10 was changed to 10-15 *AFTER* we had ordered... And the p80s were rolled into the p60s as far as lead time was concerned.

FWIW, what it's worth is nothing.

At this point BaneBots doesn't even fit the criteria as a VENDOR according to the rules -- though for our sake I hope that FIRST overlooks this little hiccup.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

The CIM-U-LATORS were always listed at 10 days out by the time you could order them which wasn't until the 17th or so. I'd love to know what the timing was of FIRST's decision to allow teams to mix and match the Banebots motors. Anyone could have easily foreseen, for example, that you'd sell a LOT of CIM-U-LATORs. I can see why they have a hard time keeping up with the P60 and P80 orders since those are largely built to order. Things like the CIM-U-LATOR, though, are one size fits all and should have been kitted and ready at kickoff.

It's possible BaneBots didn't know until late in the pre-season that they'd be supplying all those 775s and hence was late getting ready. This may have been a FIRST problem, we may never know.

On the conceptual level, I love what FIRST is trying to do here ... not insisting teams use weird motors that you can't get from other sources. I like the flexibility of teams being able to mix and match between an array of COTS motors. The idea just falls down when the source of these parts is single a little company with limited market and which isn't in a position to stock mountains of pre-built transmissions in dozens of different configurations.

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We didn't order any CIM-U-LATORs, but I can confirm that the P60 gearboxes for the RS550 motor are not vaporware. We ordered two on 1/17/2011, and received them on 1/29/2011.

I think part of the backorder problem is that BaneBots was probably expecting a level of demand more like what they experienced in 2009 and 2010. However, I speculate that the demand for the BaneBots motors and gearboxes this year has far exceeded that of 2009 and 2010. I think the increased demand wasn't as much due to the presence of 4 BB motors in the kit, as it is due to fewer *other* motors in the kit which could be used instead of the BaneBots motor. In particular, the removal of the "5th CIM" and the "2nd FisherPrice" in the 2011 KoP (as compared to 2010) along with the removal of the "Globe motor" in 2010 has left very little in the way of other motor/gearbox choices for game piece manipulation, presuming that most teams use 4 CIMs in their drive base. If there were still a "5th CIM" and "2nd FisherPrice" in the kit, I bet a lot of teams wouldn't have placed BaneBots gearbox orders at all, but would have instead used a CIM or FP motor.

We have used BaneBots gearboxes every year since 2006, and have been pretty happy BaneBots customers. We've surely never encountered previous backorder problems like this.

That said, even though we've been happy BaneBots customers since 2006, we're left scrambling this year, too, as we've been wanting to get more BaneBots gearboxes, too...

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I don't agree with much of what you say, but I really don't feel like having a discussion about it as theres not much either of us can do about the situation.

I don't think BaneBots is lying when they say they are working 24/7 to get these out, but what that tells me is they were very unprepared for the situation. This could be for several reasons, most of which could probably have been better prepared for.

As a sidenote, AndyMark is not a large company by any means, yet they seem to do a pretty reasonable job of keeping up with demand through the build season.

-Brando

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Yes. I think in future years if they were to stockpile just a few sizes (for example: 1:4, 1:16, 1:64, 1:128, 1:256) and let teams know that there were a large number of these ready to ship immediately they would be in a much better position.

Even the happy customers will be very wary next year...

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I sent them a private message telling them as much. They will have to work hard to try to rebuild trust from the FIRST community. They will have to guarantee that they have the ability to deliver their product immediately upon request if they have any hope of serving FIRST teams in the future, and unless they take very concrete steps to demonstrate this willingness AND the capability to back it up, they're going to find themselves without customers come Janurary 2012.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I think people are blowing this a little out of proportion.

The lead time was longer than initially advertised, but they are shipping product (We got the 20 that we ordered...).

They really can't predict preseason what ratios will or won't sell, and considering we have NO IDEA how FIRST interfaces with them, it's unfair to make assumptions on their preparation. For all we know, they didn't get notice of their inclusion in the KOP until November.

We got our gearboxes, they're good quality (not even the same league as their older boxes), and we're happy. We took a risk ordering them, and it payed off.

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My issue is that their lead time on the day we ordered was not consistent with the lead time that actually occurred.

Lead time changes as orders are made. I get that. But lead time changing *after* orders are made, and then being applied to orders that are already made -- that is simply unacceptable business practice, especially for a company that wants to supply FIRST teams, what with our incredibly tight build season and all.

When I order something with a 3-5 business day lead time, and on DAY 5 it changes to a 5-10 day lead time, that's not acceptable, not even a little.

It's nothing personal against the people at Banebots, who I am sure are wonderful human beings who have done their best to make sure that FIRST teams get the product they ordered as quickly as possible. It's simply business...

My team can't afford delays like we've experienced this year. If they wish to have business from FIRST teams in future years, they need to get on top of their supply timeline and make sure that this never, ever, EVER happens again -- and that we know it WON'T happen next year.

That's not judgmental. That's not me moralizing or getting on a soap box. That's simple fact. If they want our business, they need to make sure they can deliver when we need it.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Well, that's why there's a 15-day lead time... :p

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Keeping a large inventory of finished products is expensive. A better solution is to keep a larger supply of intermediate components. It will give a large amount of leeway in providing many types of finished product, and will buffer supply chain issues when pulling in raw stock for the machine shop.

For example the various P60's are multiple stacks/layers of common components. The final assembly ratios are determined by how the common components are arranged. That gives much more flexibility in how inventory is managed and it will reduce capital outlay substantially. It just increases the lead time a little.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Has anyone emailed FIRST to address the delay on the BaneBots orders?

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While I understand that BaneBots might not have been able to predict the demand for various P60 gear ratios I don't understand why they wouldn't have been able to forsee a huge demand for the CIM-U-LATORS and have those in stock ready to ship at kickoff. They knew well in advance that every team was getting at least one 775 and that there are limited COTS gearbox options for that motor. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if teams are given the choice of using a 775 or a 550 they are probably going with the 775 for the extra power.

I find it very telling that BaneBots can't even put a picture of a CIM-U-LATOR on their website. If these things aren't vaporware how hard can it be to take a photo of one and post it on the website. A PDF of a drawing would be even nicer but I'll settle for any tangable evidence that even one CIM-U-LATOR actually exists on this planet. If ANYONE has received a CIM-U-LATOR would you please take a photo or two of it and post it on CD so the rest of us can at least see what we have ordered? Also, if you have one, is it well built or a piece of junk? Should we all keep holding our breath hoping that the CIM-U-LATORS will eventually be our COTS salvation to using those 775s or should we just forget about them all together and move on to plan B? Like everyone else I am frustrated by the delay but I am outraged by the lack of basic information coming from BaneBots.

Geez, if they don't have the manpower to assemble all these gearboxes just throw all the parts in a box and let us put them together ourselves.

For what it's worth, we ordered 4 CIM-U-LATORS, 1 P60 and 1 P80 on Jan 23rd when the stated lead time was 5-10 days on all 3 items. We have heard nothing and emails to BaneBots go unanswered. Is there anyone close enough to BaneBots in Colorado that can just go knock on the door and ask them what the deal is?:rolleyes:

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Does anyone have a picture of a CIM-U-LATOR? The banebot site doesn't have one and I am wondering what it looks like. Plus if you had some drawings also that would be amazing.

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Good point, I've never seen one either even though ours should be here in a few days. I was just assuming they look roughly like the AM Planetary http://www.andymark.com/ProductDetai...Code=am%2D0002

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I hope you right (which you probably are according to the description given by the bane bots web site) but it would be nice to see one tho

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Really?

Are you using every motor in the KOP with one of them? :P

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You actually have received the CIM-U-LATOR gearbox? If so, can you take a picture of it and post it up here for people to reference.

We placed our order the day they started taking them and still haven't even received a tracking number.


-Brando

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Everyone, step back and take a deep breath. We all have multiple items on back-order. We are waiting for a compressor, in addition to the 775/Cim-u-lators.

This happens every year with multiple items. Poof balls, Orbit balls, transmissions..... even though I'm in construction, in 2005 I couldn't get pvc caps to make tetras.... First & the GDC do an excellent job maintaining secrecy, as they should.

The Cimulator replaces a CIM, so you if needed you can build and design with a CIM, and swap it out when the parts come.

Now if someone that has received a Cim-u-lator and could post some pics, and the weight of one with a 775 attached, that would be appreciated. I would do so, but ours are in the mail......

@Dale - I have been told they are not planetary!

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

They are a one-stage, 10:27 spur gear reduction. This implies that the motor is off-center from the output shaft, so until someone posts pictures of one, be sure to leave plenty of space around your CIM-U-LATOR installation point to avoid potential future headaches.

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I find it funny that everyone is up in arms that they don't have the exact gearbox they need to mount their motor to the point that some are suggesting FIRST should allow an extra of the "easier to use" motor because of this.

The game has changed a lot in 20 years...

-John

PS - In my day we still had to walk up hills both ways, but the snow had already melted.

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It's not COTS until it is a component on your shelf.

During the course of my day job I occasionally run into components that exist in a catalog, but when we try to buy them we discover they don't actually exist. If I was willing to buy 1000 of them the company would pull out the tooling and make some, but they won't do it for the 3 I might need. Consequentially, I have to source and commit to COTS early or plan to go around. The Banebots situation is just an extension of the real world.

Stock Drive Products anyone? I notice that they have this 10 tooth and this 27 tooth which might be useful if they were about .7708 apart. It also seems that the 10 tooth has a bore just under 5mm. Hmmm...

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

With no shoes on a gravel road !

In the dark...

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I stand corrected on their confiuration, I missed that they are 2.7:1 Spur gears. You're right about leaving space around them, we hadn't thought about that .... we were just assuming they'll fit in the same space as a CIM. We should be fine, though.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Normally I would agree with you about buying your own gears and making your own gearboxes, but there are many many teams that don't have that capability, either in people, machining or sponsors. I hope this Banebot problem spurs people to get out and learn more about gears, motors, etc. I know we are planning on experimenting this fall.

But the fact remains that FIRST put out 4 Banebot motors while limiting the other motors. No pinion gears, no gearboxes. Most people are going to go to the Banebot web site and expect to order from there and expect to get their order in a reasonable amount of time.

The FIRST deadline is hard and fast. Learning how to design and build your first gearbox isn't something you want to do during the build season.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

FYI.
Yesterday (2/2) we received P60's ordered on 1/18

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Sorry for my words, but this is a load of crap.

You have a group of people interested in engineering and dedicated to a goal. If you guys can't sit down, and decide to learn how to make a simple spur gearbox with the tools you have available, stop competing, because you either have no competitive drive.

Making a single speed, speed reducing, torque increasing plain jane gearbox is a darn simple design exercise, and if a group of intelligent, passionate and motivated people can't do it, it's just a lack of wanting it bad enough. Doing one that can be "machined" by hand is a tad bit more difficult, but only marginally so. I know of several teams who have literally hand made gearboxes (we do it quite often prototyping...).

I don't mean to be cocky, as I'm no amazing designer, but I could knock out a N:1 single speed gearbox in thirty minutes or less in CAD, and a few minutes or less in conceptual design. This is true of many, many members on FIRST teams, many of which have no special skills and are just average people.



In summary, you can do it, and if you need help just ask.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Sorry to be unclear, we ordered p60s.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I dunno Adam, you're screaming a knowledge paradox. It takes a lot of time to learn something new if you have no prior knowledge. It's very disheartening to try to learn it, produce something from what's learned, and have the product fail in use regardless of the effort put in. Lessons may be learned in the process, but those future lessons sure aren't helping anyone now.

On the other hand, after weening ourselves off of always-COTS options for gearboxes, I will say that the lessons are invaluable to the future of the team. Yet it's easy for me to say that because I have essentially had 6 tries to get things right as a mentor whereas many students only have 2-3 (or in the case of most rookies, less than 1 -- at which point mentor recruitment is critical, but not always possible).

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Adam is right. Last year I made a simple 1:5 gearbox using a few pieces of Delrin, some vex standoffs, and gears from an FP Trans in about an hour or two and did most of the work using a hand drill and drill press. I ran the delrin side plates on the mill just to get a decent looking edge, but I did the rough cuts on a bad saw. I'd imagine that most teams have access to a Drill press and Bandsaw or similar tools. It's really not that difficult to make a simple gearbox, especially if you have a basic understanding of gears and how they work.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

If you are looking for 16:1 gearboxes for low power operations, there are some older Banebots 36mm gearboxes in their closeout section. They come with a 385 motor which is illegal for FRC, but the 395 mounts just fine to them if you trim the 395 shaft length and swap the pinion over to the 395. They are cheap and ship next day. Not as rugged as a P60, but we've used them on past robots without a problem.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

For those waiting, IMHO they are worth it. Here are some pics:





Total weight with motor 20.9 ounces.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Uh... We should open source that and get teams with CNC or sponsors with CNCs to the work... ;)

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Man, if I had known the gearbox was that simple I would have just made it myself.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Wow, those are simple.

Ours are sitting just across the border waiting for pickup.

-Nick

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

The online description made me picture something pretty similar to that.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

All: I posted a CIM-U-LATOR CAD model here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/2444

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Jared,

Thanks for posting the drawing.... We ordered them yesterday, not expecting to receive them until after ship.

Hope you guys have a great season!!!

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

So if you guys are so great, why did you as a mentor for an 8 year old team order not one, not two, but 20 P60s? Surely you could have built your own gearboxes, probably with one hand behind your back and going uphill both ways.

My point still stands. FIRST distributes four motors, with no gearboxes, no pinions, and the supplier is 10 - 15 days behind. The build season isn't exactly the time to be experimenting at building a gearbox. Many teams will learn to build gearboxes in the future, and many have put forth some great workarounds, but for many younger teams and rookies, the banebot problem is a major headache.

You need to remember that not every team has engineering mentors. Not everyone team has access to lots of cash to experiment with. Even with those, not every team has access to the tools needed to build a gearbox. Even using CAD for many teams is a challenge.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Off the bat, ten are for my the prototype for my senior project, I was taking advantage of the quantity discount.

The other 10 are split between our practice and comp bots, four each, and then two total spares.

We are using 775s in two distinctly different sytems. We are only using 4:1 p60s, and we're using them to interface with our spur gearboxes. We are a fan of a specific style of gearbox we make using COTS AM gears and shafts, to where we just waterjet/laser out plates and have zero fab after that. We can get any ratio from 2:1 to several hundred to one. We easily could have bought 60+tooth 32dp gears and directly interfaced with them, but we wanted to keep commonality between the two systems (the same p60 is a spare for system 1, and for system 2). The p60 option was more expensive, but the interchangeability is nice. We also chose p60 over AndyMark planetary because of the quantity involved and the cost.

Although this is horribly decision making process, the fact that I was already ordering 10 for my project, which meant a discount, did weigh in on the decision somewhat.

What I said still stands however, even with using p60s, every system on our robot has a custom gearbox. This is not because we are a "have" team (I still don't believe that, but because we decided to. The point I was making is that lack of resource is not a permanent affliction, it can be rectified easily. My team went from zero machining sponsors during the 2008 season, to nearly every machine shop in the SLO county sponsoring us in one way or form (that
s A LOT). This wasn't by accident, we made this happen.

I started out as a high school student with minimal knowledge, and I learned to make gearboxes during a season (without engineering mentors; I learned reading posts on this great site). I firmly believe a team of people can do the same thing, even with a hand drill and some material. Well, I am incorrect, not all teams can; only the teams that want it bad enough. 1726 made a hand made gearbox on one of their most dominant robots ever reusing gears from the FP transmission.

I also don't buy that CAD is a challenge for teams, especially for a single system. My students take the basic solidworks tutorials in a few hours, and then are capable of making several part assemblies. Sure it's not a 1000 part robot, but it's something.

FIRST did put these motors in the KOP, but the 395/540/550/775 motors are not banebots specific, they are industry standard which have been around for years, and there are a whole slew of gearboxes to support.



In Summary, boo hoo. The were speedbumps, don't complain, find a solution and move on. Every team that gives a darn is doing so.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Our CIM-U-LATORS haven't arrived yet, and the CAD on from a previous post as well as the pictures do not show whether or not the CIM-U-LATOR shaft has the same 2mm key as the regular CIM motors. Can any team who has a CIM-U-LATOR please tell us whether or not the shaft has a slot for a key.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

quoted for truth

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Yes. Same size key.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I hope one day, official FIRST game hints will give us a sneak peak as to what's included in the KOPs (minus game pieces) so that teams can decide ahead of time, what parts they might want to order and from whom.
I'm sure that would've alleviated to some extent the issue that many teams are having (getting items they want quickly), including BaneBots.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We got our CIMulators (for RS 775s) a few days ago and noticed a small but extremely important detail. If you are putting these into a CIMple box from AM, the bolts that go through the plastic into the face of the CIM (or now the CIMulator) are too long. On one end of the CIMulator they are fine, but on the other end they stick through to the pinion on the RS 775 shaft... So we happened to have lots of various lengths of 10-32s around (yay gold mine!), so it was no biggy, but if you don't you can probably just hacksaw the original ones down...

Need CIM-U-LATORS
 

Hey Folks,
It's Friday night and we just discovered that it's illegal to use 5 CIM's. We've built our robot and we are using 5 CIM's. Ahhhhh!

We thought 5 CIM's were legal. We have to ship our robot on Tues and we obviously can't get a replacement for the CIM before Tues. We're actually building two robots and after reading this thread, we're hoping to get a couple of CIM-U-LATORS prior to the Los Angeles Regional, March 24th.

Is there any one out there that might have a couple of CIM-U-LATORS they might sell us?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Re: Need CIM-U-LATORS
 

I wouldn't bet on it... Were I you guys, I'd be looking at using a FP or a 775 *pronto*.

And just keep in mind, as panic-inducing at this is, it's much better to find out now than when you get to your first Regional.

Re: Need CIM-U-LATORS
 

I would strongly suggest buying an AndyMark Planetary and putting the 2011 FP in it. It is nearly identical to a CIM in that setup in terms of speed and power. Plus the lead time is much less than the BB CIMulator.

Re: Need CIM-U-LATORS
 

What are the uses for the 5 motors?

One of them might be replaceable with an FP, or a Window...

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We're using 4 of the CIMs for drivetrain motors and one for a worm drive based arm. The arm is pretty big and the CIM works like a champ. Last year the rules allowed 5 CIMs. Anyone know why they changed it?

And, if the CIM-U-LATOR or the Andy Mark planetary + FP work so much like the CIMs, why not just allow another CIM?

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

I strongly advise the FP + AM planet combo, it's as close a match in free speed and torque as any gearing setup you can get. It also requires the least amount of work possible (Saves some weight too!).

FIRST selects the kop methods through methods not exactly known to us, half tradition, half what is available is my best guess.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

For ease I also suggest AM Planetary +FP also. Consider your withholding allowance, and you may be able to do it after ship.

If you want to do it now, I'd use 1-2 window motors and balance the arm. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=91461

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

We have some. We're using them all, sorry.

Re: CIM-U-LATORS
 

Today Team 3135 received delivery of an initial order of two CIM-U-lator=>775 gearboxes,which were ordered along with a total of four 775 motors.
Because of the internal shorting problem, we got two the extra 775's, expecting maybe one in four to test bad. Immediately on opening the box, we tested for internal shorting, and there were THREE SHORTED MOTORS out of four. We are bailing out on using the 775 motors for ANYTHING EVER AGAIN. I hope we can get a replacement pair of DUAL 550 CIM-U-lator gearboxes shipped ASAP.

If anyone wants to trade a DUAL 550 CIM-U-lator gearbox for a 775 CIM-U-lator gearbox, let me know ASAP. Put your good 775 motor on our extra CIM-U-lator.

-Dick Ledford