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-   -   Pistons only halfway up (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90816)

implosionprez 03-02-2011 02:23

Pistons only halfway up
 
In 2008, with Overdrive, our team (2484) (2008 Las Vegas Regional) used a piston to move our arm up and down. Even though there are posts on CD now saying that it isn't possible to have a piston go only part stroke, instead of all the way up or all the way down, we sure did it in 2008. The trouble is, we're not sure how that was done. It was using the old control system, with the solenoids wired up to spike relays. Is that why we could go part way, instead of all the way? I know it can be done, so can anyone give me some insight as to why it worked back in 2008, but it won't work now?

samir13k 03-02-2011 02:31

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
the control system should not make a difference. If the piston is large enough and has enough backpressure on it, you should be able to only open up the solenoid for a certain amount of time to not fill the piston up all the way. It will be difficult (impossible?) to do it with a small cylinder, but we easily did it with our 1.5" 1o inch stroke cylinders in 2008. Another option (havent tried it) is to lower your working pressure below 60psi but that may effect other cylinders on your bot

implosionprez 03-02-2011 02:40

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Meaning that if you have air going into both ends of the psiton, they should be able to counteract each other and stop the piston, right?

ttakashima 03-02-2011 02:41

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Use a second regulator to regulate the pressure down from 60 psi to maybe 30? it will lower the pushing force though, or use those fittings with valves which you can open and close as you test.

TD912 03-02-2011 02:47

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
I'm not sure of the technical terms to use, but in 2010 we used a solenoid that normally kept both sides closed unless one side was activated. It was paired with a very large pneumatic cylinder to be used as a lifting arm. It raised and lowered fine, and you could even stop half way. We never got it fully functioning though.

implosionprez 03-02-2011 02:50

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Aren't all solenoids closed unless you activate them, to open them?

Dominator1619 03-02-2011 02:50

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Or you can look into using multi-positional sylinoids. They more or less control how much air goes in and out instead of traditional one where you get all or nothing out of the cylinder.

ttakashima 03-02-2011 02:55

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
If you have extra cash you could purchase 3 position pistons from Bimba as well. Here is a link

dtengineering 03-02-2011 03:41

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
You should also have some flow regulators that can slow the flow of air into smaller pistons.

Consider that air roughly follows the ideal gas laws of PV=nRT. P is the pressure, V is the volume and n is the number of moles of the gas. R is a constant and T, the temperature, is also roughly constant.

So as you put more moles (n) of gas into the cylinder, either the pressure or the volume must increase. Normally we extend a cylinder all the way... the pressure increases, forcing the piston outward, and allowing the volume to increase.

If, however, you put just a little bit of air into the cylinder, then as the volume increases the pressure will drop, until your piston position finds equilibrium with the applied load. (The pressure in your cylinder pushing on the piston will be balanced by the force applied to the piston.)

This sounds easy until you try to do it, and what works in your shop (at your altitude, temperature and humidity) might not work at your competition venue without some careful tweaking.

This is naturally quite a bit different from a hydraulic system as air is a compressible gas while hydraulic fluids are specifically chosen to be as incompressible as possible.

For precise, reliable positioning you may wish to consider some from of linear actuator... or perhaps using one of those lead screws that come in the KoP (longer ones are available) for something other than entertaining that team member who really, really, likes turning the lead screw up, and down... up and down...

Jason

IndySam 03-02-2011 07:44

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Please can we call them cylinders :)

It is very possible, I just wouldn't recommend it.

Reducing the air will only reduce the amount of pressure and speed, the cylinder will still extend all the way.

A cylinder extends when air is applied on one end and exhausted out the other. To stop the piston inside the cylinder at a mid point you must stop the air from exiting.

That is how a flow control valve works, it is a one way valve that slows how much air comes out of the exhaust, slowing the movement.

So you must use a second valve (or a special valve) on the exhaust side to block the exit of air.


A easier and more reliable way to accomplish this is to put two cylinders back to back. Look at this pick from 1322. They are using three hooked together to get multiple positions.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/36233?

akoscielski3 03-02-2011 07:51

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
two different cylinders and connecting them to eachother. extend one to get half way up, extend both for all the way up, and none for all the way down :)

tonystark_23 03-02-2011 09:38

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Hi, I am not an expert on the situation, but i have mentored a team that did multi position pneumatic cylinders. (pistons). Bimba sells pistons with magnetic switches attached to the outside. The way this works is that the "plunger" in the cylinder has a magnetic tip. The magnetic switches on the outside of the cylinder detect when the plunger passes and return a value 0 or 1. You can use this value to write code that turns on the solenoid and then turns it off when it reaches the appropriate switch position.

Matt C 03-02-2011 10:48

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by akoscielski3 (Post 1014776)
two different cylinders and connecting them to eachother. extend one to get half way up, extend both for all the way up, and none for all the way down :)

Or you can use two different length pistons attached end to end, and have 4 positions!

MrForbes 03-02-2011 10:57

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Air is a spring, so it's difficult to position the piston in a pneumatic cylinder accurately unless it's at one end of it's travel, or the other.

Good design with pneumatics is to have the pistons travel all the way to the end. Matt C made an excellent suggestion for how to do this.

Dale 03-02-2011 11:42

Re: Pistons only halfway up
 
Also, you'd need to be careful to design a system that didn't trap compressed air when the robot is deactivated. There's a Q&A about that at http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=16642


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