Re: Mentors on drive team
 

You forgot 5) They're teenagers, and teenagers know everything

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

There is really no need for a debate on this topic. You cant state that a mentor is better than a student at being the coach, or vice versa, because it doesn't make sense. Being a mentor or student has no effect on their ability to coach during a match, it all depends on the specific individuals who want the position.

Would you rather have a 4th year senior as strategist, or a first year mentor?
From the other perspective, would you rather have a 8+ year experienced mentor, or a rookie student?

In my opinion, the best option is to allow both mentors and students the opportunity at the coaching position. Let the drivers choose who they prefer, and call it a day.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I hope your coach is not going on the field... That'd be dangerous! lol

As for me I was lucky enough to be coached by an amazing man (Ken Patton) and I think I changed who I am. There is no way to explain how his important that relationship was to me and I would not trade it for anything. I have nothing against student drivers but the its not what I would choose for my team. I am now a coach for the rookie team we started and I can only hope that one day I can be half the coach he is and have a lasting impact on my students.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

With regards to the coach I think that a mentor who has done it for a while can be very helpful in guiding the drivers and the position of coach is really a position of mentoring the driver.

With regards to the strategist. I was really my teams first real strategist. When I graduated and decided to come back as a mentor I did not know what I would do come competition time. I have always believed that this competition is about the students and not just the winning and as a mentor I had to do as little as possible while guiding the students to do as much as possible. Because of this I did not want to come back and just run things like I did when i was a student but I also wanted to help my team win. I decided that the best thing to do was to work along side a student with them making all the decisions and me giving my opinions but the final say being theres not mine. I believe the position of strategist should be that of the students and just like with the robot they should make the decisions with the advice and assistance of the mentors.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

1726 hasn't had an adult on the drive team since Tom left..... :o

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Lucky stiff!

An effective coach can be a student or an adult. In a group of 50 students and 50 adults, there will be a greater number of qualified coaches in the adult group. This means that, for your team, some years you might not have a student who can be effective. After all, is it fair to the rest of the team to reduce the team's competition success by selecting a student simply because they are a student, if they are significantly unqualified?

That being said, it would be a rare year when NO student was qualified (assuming they get training) to coach the drive team.

1676 does not have a policy that a student must be the drive coach, but we'll work hard to find a qualified student before falling back on a mentor.

But, like Indy Sam, many mentors would simply like the fun of being on the drive team. Having done it, I can say it's really a lot of fun, a nice reward for the hours, blood, sweat and tears.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Reading all this (over and over again every year!) I still want to go back to the days (yup I am "old" & dating myself) when every drive team had TWO coaches. With that rule, my senior year, Aces High started putting in one adult and one student as coaches. (Yeah scroll way the heck down, you will see my name... ::sigh::!)

To me, this was the ultimate inspiration. Yeah I was a senior, had been the MVP of the team for three years, had held the lead strategist as well as pretty much every other position on the team... but when it came to walking on that field and being in charge, I was still nervous. I knew my stuff, but I was up against teams like Chief Delphi!! Having the mentor at my side made things so much easier, and gave me the confidence I needed.

The next year, when I started 229 and I was now "The Mentor", I brought a student coach with me, and I was now the only one with field experience. Having stood side by side with my mentor the previous year, I knew what I had to do and I knew how to help the student learn & grow.

Since they aren't likely to bring back the days of 5 person drive teams, I am still of the opinion do what works for your team, but make sure you understand your goals. Some team's highest goal is to win, some is to give as many opportunities to students, but all of us are here for inspiration. Everyone's definitions may vary, but as long as it works for your team RUN with it!

Oh and by the way, I am sitting next to an "old guy" who between he & one of our other mentors could probably out-video game any kid these days... ;-) So drop the video game debates already!

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Wow this thread kinda highlights why I don't post here much any more. :rolleyes:

I was my team's driver for two years in 2005 and 2006 during which time we didn't have a set coach (they just rotated mentors and students) so it was left to the drivers to handle those responsibilities too, including hearing every complaint/ suggestion from every member of team after every match.

I returned to our Drive Team in 2008 to Coach. One of the main things I wanted to do was try to shield my Drivers from inevitable barrage of "Monday morning quarterbacking" I had to deal with. I wanted them focusing on what they need to be doing not stressing over what happened. I collect all the relevant feedback and tell them what they need to hear. Every member of our Drive Team participates in match prep, I may lead them early in the season but as time goes on I try to easy the students into leading the discussions.

I believe one of the most important things a Coach has to bring to the field is calm steady voice, are there student that can do this? yes absolutely

I've seen match where student Coaches handled themselves and their Drive Team calmly and professionally, I've had the great pleasure of coaching also side them as well as legendary coaches like Ken Patton and Paul Copioli.
On the other hand I've seen matches where both mentor and student coaches have gotten panicky and touched the controls.

Its what works for your team, but Coaches need to tell the Drivers what they need to hear not what they want to hear.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Thanks for the talent, by the way. :cool:

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Team MARS has always had a policy of student coaches and as far as I know that policy will continue. We of course recognize that that teams with adult-coaches bring home more blue banners on average, but our reasoning is as follows: as much as our mentors inspire us, and teach us, and are involved during build season, at the competitions and all that time in between, we feel that the students should "own" their successes and defeats on the field. We want and trust the students to be the representatives of our team down there on the field. Additionally we value the life skills (leadership etc.) that student coaches have the opportunity to develop. I would also like to add that after having been on the drive team, we've found student-coached alliance partners to be (generally) more amicable and better team-players than adult-coached teams. Of course issues almost never ever arise, and we only have our experiences to go on.

All this being said I don't think that any of these arguments can be generalized or applied broadly in any way. Every team is different and should, as a team, make these decisions based on what works well for them, and based on what they want/expect to gain from the "match" experience.

2cents,
-Luke

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

It would be interesting to see which student coached, college student coached and adult coached teams separately have the most regional wins. It would just be really difficult to compile.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Younger != faster reflexes. You are making the false assumption that "adult" means ancient and slow and frail. You realize I count as an "adult" as does my younger brother. I'm pretty sure that we have at LEAST equivalent reflexes to any student out there.

Played video games? REALLY? Multiple information streams... ok, come watch my development method sometime, 2 machines, 3 monitors, hundreds of tabs... I never lose anything. Age/video gaming has nothing to do with information processing.

Friends? Sometimes that is a downside, when a coach says to do something the driver needs to do it not take it as a suggestion from a friend.

As an adult I've scouted, driven, and coached. I also have 8 years of watching events, that experience is never a hindrance. I also have the benefit of knowing many of the other coaches and am able to formulate an educated guess on what they will do based on my interactions with them. How many students can claim that?

Heck, if your next argument is that we adults get tired and cranky too easy (since that would complete the rest of this stereotype) I would encourage you to try to keep up with me for a day, should be pretty easy right? After all, I'm old and slow and can't process information.

Excuse me, I have to go see the attendant about my sleeping pills for my nap. Where did I put my cane?

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Your coach needs to be mature, quick on their feet, able to keep their cool under pressure and EXPERIENCED. If a student can satisfy those requirements, by all means they should not be held back, however I've seen VERY VERY few students capable of handling all of those requirements. The big one is experience.

There are just so many situations that can arise both planning for a match and during a match that it is very important to have someone there who can speak from experience when dealing with a situation.

Whatever your team chooses is their own choice. Every team has their own preference, and because FIRST does not decree in the rules that a student or mentor HAS to be the coach, there is NO POINT in arguing which is "better".


-Brando

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Taking a few swings at stereotypes this morning, Andrew? I'd be careful with that. ::safety::

Bottom line, the FIRST programs are suited for multi-generational interactions and partnerships. FRC provides many opportunities for children of all ages to work together and celebrate a great competition and program. It's part of the magic.

Jane

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

The most common associated position on the drive team when mentioning mentors is the coach, so I am going to talk mainly about that position.

We like to use students for our drive team, since we try to be as student run as possible. However, if we have a student who wants to be a coach, but has not had any experience on the field, we will have one of our coaches coach and have the student be the human player. That way, the student follows the coach around, learning what responsibilities come with the coach and experiences the environment of being on the field during a match and competition. I was in this position last year, and I ended up coaching Virginia and Atlanta. It depends what the specific team thinks in regards to mentors being on the drive train, but our motives for having a student drive team is because we want our team to be as student run as possible, with some exceptions, that is.