Mentors on drive team
 

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

If you have a veteran mentor with 5+ years experience, they an notice things happening that many of us wont. We use a mentor for that very reason. They are there to guide, not be a boss, just remember that.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Mentors cannot be drivers or human player/analyst only the drive coach.

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2791 has always had a mentor coach and will for the foreseeable future.

For us, FIRST is about mentors working hand in hand with students. The lessons an adult coach can teach a drive team and the collaboration the students and adults experience together form some of the strongest student-adult partnerships that are so key to FIRST. Student coaches are great too, though. I was a student coach when I was a student and the experience was invaluable.

It is worth noting that 2791 doesn't strictly share the "mentor hands off" approach to the robot, though. No part of the robot lacks student involvement, but mentors often work hand in hand with students on design and construction. Machining is done as much as possible off site and out of meeting times.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

The analyst is a student position this year, a non-high school aged team member cannot fill this position.

There are many teams that chose to have adult mentors be the Drive Team coach. For some teams this is due to policy and for others it's due to the experience that the mentors have.

816 has always had an adult coach for on season events with the exception of 2009. Having driven under both a student coach and an adult coach, I can say that it doesn't matter who they are as long as they can provide the proper insight and assistance to the drive teams.

To answer your question, if the mentors are there to provide guidance and criticism then why not have one on the field during the match to give insight into game play? If you have a mentor that is especially good at strategy aren't they better than a student who is not? It's really a question that the team needs to ask themselves and then answer.

(Personally, I've found that Drive Teams with Adult Coaches are often a bit more professional, but this is not always the case.)

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

My sentiments exactly. I ended up as the human player for BattleCry last year and we grabbed a mentor that started last year and put him as our Coach. It really doesn't matter who it is, it's more what they can see and how fast (and accurate) they can relay that information to the Drivers (or operator, what I call our arm/kicker person).

The entire point of the Coach is to give the two drivers another pair of eyes to see with; by contrast, the Analyst is the Alliance-wide Coach, and (as I see it), will be more about signaling the Feeders and keeping communications between the 3 teams.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I will echo what has been said already (and what has been discussed many times on CD before). Mentors tend to have a firm grasp of how the game is played year in and year out i.e. the experience factor.

That doesn't mean a veteran high school team member can't have the same knack for game strategy and experience that the mentor has.

While the drive team changes from year to year, we find it's nice to have a constant on the drive team. They can help new drivers catch on quickly during 'strategy meetings' before each competition match, or they can watch the clock or scoring rack to calmly tell the driver which action to perform next.

Overall, I think it's important for the drivers to trust the coach, and we find there is minimal conflict when it is a mentor.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

We usually use student coaches on 1551, but not always. It depends on the year, and who wants to do what job.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Perhaps your team could discuss the limitations that you are establishing for yourselves by following this philosophy. It would be a good topic to explore. Wisdom and experience are valuable to FRC teams; often, mentors are the storehouses of these valuable assets.

Jane

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

We have always had an adult coach and I believe we always will. We have one for the same reason that you have adult coaches on all sports teams. Students do a great job but sometimes their emotions get the best of them.

We always have the students enter into an open dialogue with alliance partners. There have been times when the adult mentor needed to decipher fact from fiction when it came to capabilities for both us and others. This does not mean that the adult took over these conversations but spoke to our students and had them be ambassadors for the team.

The two drivers generally end up with tunnel vision because they concentrate on the robot. A key responsibility of the adult coach is to be aware of what is happening on the entire field and watch the clock.

The coach also gathers the drivers and human players after each match to critique what happened. This dialogue makes us better by nationals.

We also make sure that there is a great relationship with coach and drivers prior to any competition. It starts at driver tryouts, continues with driver training and goes on for life :p

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I don't want to open the huge can of worms on this subject but there are many reasons that we use an adult coach on the drive team. I will share the one that is my favorite.

To even be considered for our drive team you have to have shown dedication and put in your hours to the team during build season. It's a reward for effort given.

I spend many many more hours than any student does every year, being drive coach is my reward for that effort.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Ahh the old student vs adult coach debate :)

Ultimately, do what works for YOUR team. And you may want to make some of decisions depending on your goals. If your goals are for the students to do and learn as much as possible, a student coach may be the way to go. If your goals are to learn from the past, have mentors & students work hand in hand and learn from eachother, maybe a mentor is a good idea.

1511 started with a student/adult pair that traded off, but since then has been fortunate enough to have very driven, interested & mature student coaches. Our team does a ton of strategy work in the background (which is done by both mentors & students) and has lots of scouting, and for the most part tends to lead strategy discussions with alliance partners. You need a very strong & intelligent student who knows the rules backwards and forwards in order to do this. If you have a student like that, I would say definitely go with the student. A mentor can be the backup in "tough" discussions with "pushy" adult coaches - believe me, we have encountered our share. In general at first glance, a lot of adult coaches won't give the same credibility to a student, BUT, the good ones will quickly recognize knowledge & talent. However, if your student coach can't control the drivers and can't hold their own in a strategy discussion, maybe its a good opportunity for an adult coach.

Ultimately, again, its what works for your team. I have seen student coaches that are far better than many mentor coaches, but I have also seen drivers that do much better having a mentor coach. Really, its all about WHO you put in that position and the skills they have, not how old they are. Your drive team needs to have chemistry and they need to be able to strategize & work with other teams. So just pick the right person for the job :)

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

174 likes to have a student coach rather than a mentor coach. Our reasoning is a little more about the relationships between the students. There is a sense of purpose when the adults give the students an opportunity to prove themselves as leaders, winners and champions. The mentors spend countless hours with students in building the robot, so during competition the mentors of 174 really take a step back. For our group of students each year, it just works better. Talk to any of the teams we have been paired with in elims and they will tell you how focused, driven and clam our student drivers and coach are - even in the face of defeat.

Not saying it works for every team, but it does for us, and we like it that way.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

From what I've experienced as an operator, mentor drive coaches make team interaction more professional. The adult mentors collaborate in a professional manner, and offer the students a chance to collaborate professionally. The mentors shouldn't be calling all the shots, but they can help bring a more professional relationship to the drive team, and to the interaction between teams. I know that had there not been a mentor coaching me, I wouldn't have conducted myself in such a manner.

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I have had years when I had a student who was capable and I let them be the coach, primarily because I have to spend alot of time in the pits working on the robot and I feel that the coach needs to be available to watch as many matches as possible in order to be the best strategist. I have had the student coach coordinate the scouting team so he knows what is going on with the game and the other teams.

However, my preference is to have a mentor for one specific reason. If something goes wrong with a match relative to scoring or a ruling, then a student has to bring it to the attention of the head referee immediately. I feel that a student is at a disadvantage debating with an adult in presenting their case while trying to be respectful of the adult, so I like to have an adult standing behind him for support.

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Our team has a policy of having a student be the drive coach/strategist. Our rookie year, I was the drive coach/strategist (as a student) and every year since then I've helped coach our drive team including the drive coach/strategist (as an alumni/mentor). I could just be the drive coach/strategist myself but we want students to lead our team and represent us on the field. We think that's important. I learned alot through my experience and i had the most fun i've ever had. We want other students to have that same opportunity.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

2022 has an entirely student designed, student built robot. This philosophy transfers into everything we do. We have had a student coach every year of our existence, and we will until their is a radical shift in the philosophy. Everything about our team is student run, our mentors sometimes ask questions about our designs to make sure that we have thought them through completely. To me, seeing a mentor on a drive team doesn't seem to make sense. Everything that a mentor can see, a student can see better, faster, and communicate it with the drive team efficiently.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

On 548 we are a student lead team with a student coach every year. I have a great respect for out mentors and the time they put in. I also respect the mentor coaches on the field. The only problem I have with mentor coaches is that this program is designed to inspire high school students and I've found, from being hp twice and from letting 8th graders on the field during off season events, that the chance to be on the field really motivates a lot of kids. As far as experience with the game, I don't see a huge advantage to an adult or a veteran student, both get the game on the same day.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

What makes you say that?

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Can you explain this statement a bit more?

There is a reason that the same Adult Coaches bring home Banners year after year.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

We go with a student coach because it gives the kids a sense of ownership to the team and it helps them to learn and grow from the experience. And trust me we're not just putting them out there unprepared. They have to have a thorough knowledge of the rules and they have guidance on the team strategy in the pits by the team mentors between matches.
It's worked for us all these years and I don't see nay reason for us to change.

That being said I can see the other side of the coin on having an adult mentor as the coach. When you can have a Paul Copioli, and Andy Baker or a Ken Patton not only leading you but teaching you not only as a coach but as a Woddie Flowers award winner not only on how to win on the field of play but how to conduct yourself off of it why wouldn't you want them standing in the box with you? And there are numerous other great adult mentor coaches out there leading their drive teams and teams to strong showings year in and year out.

Personally I don't think you can go wrong with either choice if they are handled correctly.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Our team has switched on and off for the past few years. Last year I was the coach, however the year before that it was a mentor and this year it looks like it will be a college alumni that is still heavily involved in the program and has had experience actually driving in matches.

Our method of decision making is that we first find a good drive team (Pilot and co-pilot), then we find a person that knows the game and works well with them. When a person graduates or can't make all of the competitions that year we have to start the process again. I find it to be pretty effective.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Lets see....
1) Younger, thus, faster reflexes
2) Most likely played video games, and capable of processing multiple streams of information faster.
3) The student coach will hopefully be one of the friends of the drivers, and will be able to communicate with them based on their prior experiences.
4) A student coach should have had experience in previous years as scout, or driveteam. Hopefully this will push them to notice the little things that are important.

I realize that not all teams are capable of fielding an effective drive coach, but I do believe that the vast majority of team could perform just as well if they implemented a student coach.


Almost all FIRST teams have students for 4 years. This allows plenty of time for progression up the ranks to coach. For example, by the time students are Seniors on my team, they have assumed the role of active mentor. The main job of the Seniors is to train the future team to be successful. And my team is run out of a 3 year high school(soph-senior), so (almost) no students are on the team for 4 years.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

These are all assumptions based on a substantially older coach, or at least it would seem that way. I would have to whole heartedly disagree with all of them. I suggest you review your thoughts as they are not in agreement with many of the commonly accepted views of adult coaches.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

So let me get this straight. You guys compete at Midwest every year and your saying any kid you put in the drivers station as coach can out coach a Raul Oliveria? say what?

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I would like to dispute this point. Being able to communicate efficiently is entirely dependent on the individual, as is true in all aspects of life. There is nothing about being a student that makes them inherently better at communicating what they see.

When it comes down to the role of the coach it is a matter of knowing what the driver needs to know at a given time and knowing the best way to convey that information to them. If a mentor and driver have a better manner of communicating with each other it would be unwise to then put in a student who communicates less effectively, and vice-versa.

The most important thing about choosing a coach is the driver-coach relationship and their communication, therefore your choice of coach should be dependent on the driver. The wand chooses the wizard as it were.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

You're absolutely right. Raul, and Brian Beatty are handicapped by their lack of videogame playing experience. If only those teams would use a student coach they'd have much more success.

-John

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

What does that have to do with coaching?
Trust me. These adult mentors aren't feebs. Many of them have the degrees to prove it.
And the adult mentor will be the one guiding the student through the build process and actually helping them grow as a person whether they are their friend or not (sometimes it's better to be their teacher than their best buddy so they can show them the error of their ways sometimes and not worry about hurting their feelings. That's part of the growing process and in the long run will make them a better person).
Meanwhile these adult mentors have had YEARS of experience coaching (and often winning regionals, divisions and world championships.



.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Out coach, yes. Out compete, maybe not.
Coaching should not be about telling the drivers to do certain things. It is about pointing out things that could possibly be missed, and communicating with the other drive teams during the match.

I know that many teams do not follow this philosophy, and this is fine. This works for us as it inspires the maximum number of students on our team.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

And what makes you think this is Raul Oliveria's coaching style? Or any adult coaches for that matter? Where do you get the idea that your method is better than anyone else's? Do you have the banners to prove it?

Where do you get off presuming that all adult coaches act certain ways that all students don't? The amount of blatant ageism, stereotyping, and presumption you've backed your posts with is just ridiculous.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who has only coached as a student.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

When I woke up this morning I was feeling really good. But after reading these posts I feel real old and now realize that:

1) I have slow reflexes.
2) I can no longer process multiple streams of information.
3) I can no longer communicate with the youth of America.
4) I can no longer see the little things that are important.

Anyone know of a good retirement home?

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Probably from years of learning how to process multiple streams by playing video games...

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

As far as I know, our team has always had a student coach. It's because, for our team, the head driver works better with a student as opposed to a mentor. In my experience the senior members of the team that usually fill the role of coach do the job just fine, even though they might not have as much experience as the mentors do.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I am sorry if I am offending anyone. I have never been on driveteam, and the closest I have gotten is two years of pit crew during eliminations. My opinions are going based off of my team's philosophy as well as what I have heard from the drive team for the past few years.

I never meant to insinuate that every team should change to a student coach, I was just trying to point out a few benefits. Granted, some of them may be a stretch. (I could link you to the studies that show that video games make people see more)

I would also like to point out, that most students are currently in class right now, so this is almost a one sided argument.

As for the banners, no, we do not have the banners to prove anything. Our team has been getting consistently better(except last year Midwest). This year is probably going to be our best year yet based on our progress so far.

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Someone should PM Raul that if he wants another championship his coaching experience is useless because he's slow and old. I think he'd get a kick out of it. :rolleyes:

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The "old", adult coaches are creating relationships with students that are invaluable. Making another peer level friend isn't that life changing for a student, but achieving the same level with a professional level adult will have a big impact on student's lives.

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Mr. Oliveria is at your regional. You should go up and talk to him sometimes. He's a really smart engaging guy (just not before a match). I think you'd walk away pretty impressed with how much he knows.

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Sometimes it doesn't hurt to rehash a topic like this every....single....year... but must of what needs to be said about it can be found here...

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=77390

or here....

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=67426

^ That thread in particular a lot of respected minds weigh in.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

(If you cared about the subject strongly enough to provide such a link, I would counter with a link to the studies that show that video games make people less capable of focusing on a task.)

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Skierkiewitz will see it sooner or later, and let Raul know, so they can both have a chuckle.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

like homework.:p

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I in no way think that student coaches are necessarily better then adult mentors as far as performance goes, but I do believe it should be a student on the drive team and here's why.
"Mission

Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership." (emphasis mine)

Not to say anything against mentors but this program is truly for the students. Being on the field is an incredible experience and students should be the only ones down there.

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Team 422 is a top-down, student-driven experience. The mentors are there to prod us on to think, design, build, and test, but we take a lot of pride in the fact that it is our machine. The mentors on our team wouldn't even want to be coaches, I reckon. Last year, we had a freshman, two sophomores, and a junior. (we had a dearth of seniors). This year will probably be one of each.

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The point of FIRST is inspire by having students working with and alongside mentors. What could be more inspiring than the direct connection between an adult coach and a student drive team?

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I know much has been said on this topic but I must to weigh in. I applaud the concept of student built, student driven and mentor inspired. Team 1098 follows this concept in everything we do.

We believe that FRC is about the student experience. We look to enhance that by enabling the student with knowledge and practical examples.

Go RockBots!

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

That sounds great for the 3 people on the drive team, but to take away a spot on the field for a mentor from a student seems to be counter intuitive to the inspiring students instead of mentors. I understand that mentors put a ton of time and I truly respect them for it, but I don't think they belong on the field (this isn't to say I hate all mentors/teams that have an adult coach, I just feel its better to have a student there)

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Wait, are the mentors allowed to train the drivers, but not allowed to actually drive the robot at any time themselves? Is that right?

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Yes, it does take a spot away from a student, but that mentor inspires and teaches the other three members on the driveteam in a way that the typical student cannot. Atleast for our team, I don't think our drivers would have the same positive experience with a student instead of an adult mentor. Throughout the entire process, its about mentors passing on their experience and knowledge to the students, why should it change at the event?

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They are not allowed to drive the robot in competition as per the definition of DRIVER:

Emphasis mine.

They may however drive the robot outside of competition.

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Mentors are not allowed to drive the robot. It's a red card and disable if they operate the controls (<G56>). Drivers are the only ones who can touch the controls; drivers must be pre-college students; mentors can be the coach if that is what the team wants, but the coach can't touch the controls.

All I'm going to say on the original topic is: FIRST has left it open for the teams to decide whether a mentor or a student is the drive coach. Which your team chooses and why is not my business; you can tell me, but unless you've got a reason that's really out of line I'm not going to say anything either way.

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I'm guess I'm just confused on how a mentor is on the drive team is more inspiring then a student. Also my mentors also continue to inspire me at competition in the pit and strategy meetings.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Think of it this way: from Kindergarten through 12th grade, are you taught by your peers or by adults?

How much do you think a class taught by a student would learn relative to how much a class taught by a teacher would learn?


P.S. Don't bring up "video games" as a reason why student coaches are superior, as video games have been around for almost forty years and your parents most likely grew up playing them too.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

To follow your logic shouldn't you change the drive team every match too inspire as many students as possible?

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Ideally yes, and we do at off season events; however everyone likes to win and people do have more skills then other at the drive team positions. And as far as the teachers comment above, I agree when the teachers by far know more about the information, but like I've already stated, the students and the mentors get the game on the same day. A student can be just as good as a coach as any mentor.

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Being a good field coach more than just knowing the game and having a good handle on the stategy. Good field coaches must be good at communicating and interacting not only to your driveteam, but to the other alliances. Must be able to stay cool and calm. Must command the drivers respect so they listen to them. Must represent the team in the best possible way. Must be able to quickly process information and make sound decisions. These are not things that are learned in 6 weeks, but practiced, improved and perfected in the 20 or so additional years the adult mentor has over the student.


I have no problem with teams using students as field coaches, but I disagree with the idea that the typical student is just as good (if not better) than the average adult mentor.

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Our team has the policy like your (OP) that it should be student designed and built with mentor approval/criticism and basically every year we have a mentor as coach, I'm sure that if we students wanted a student coach instead they would allow us the chance but none of us have ever had a problem with it before. My suggestion would be to ask your drivers if they would be willing to consider the benefits of this situation.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

As many people in this thread have said, I believe a student coach can be as good as a mentor coach as long as they have the required skills. In my experience as an operator for one year and the driver for another, student coaches do not feel as comfortable directing the actions of others as many mentors do.

I also don't believe that teams are losing out on inspiring students by using a mentor coach. I feel that all students at the competition can be inspired not just the three or four on the field. Lots of work goes on at the competitions not just driving. If you feel that your students will lose out on inspiration by not having a student coach then by all means use one.

The OP's team has a "hands off" mentor policy. If they feel that carrying that over to the competition will help inspire their students then they should do that. But I have seen many great students be inspired by mentor drivers and by mentors in the pit and scouting.

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So using that logic if a team has a better chance to win with an experienced-seasoned coach you are suggesting they use them.

I think it's great to rotate drive teams and use student coaches at off-season competitions to get as many students experience behind the glass as possible. This is a regular practice for many teams, including ours.

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So you really believe that a football player with a couple of years of experience could do a better job coaching the Green Bay Packers than 47 year old Mike Mccarthy? Maybe if the Steelers had dumped their 38 year old coach for a 23 year old with a couple of years of experience, they could have taken advantage of all your reasons for havng a student coach and won the Superbowl! ;)

You'll find that maturity makes a HUGE difference in a drive coach. Very few high school students have reached a level of maturity that allows them to respond to situations on the field and communicate them to the alliance in a manner that effectively takes advantage of the strengths of a particular alliance. Most high school students also respond much more reliably to adult directions rather than directions from another student, which many tend to treat as "requests" to be responded to at their leisure! This typically doesn't lead to a real effective alliance ....

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I am in no way saying that the average student is better then the average adult at coaching, I know there are some great adult coaches out there. Some people think that adults have an advantage over students when it comes to coaching, I personally do not and my team puts a student coach in year after year. I guess my real question is what advantage is there to an adult coach? I don't see experience as one, as a upper class student I have watched hundreds of matches and learned what is import, these games are only so complex and we get this years on the same date. Maturity? On a whole that's probably true, so don't pick a student that immature, there's lots of them that aren't. Also the argument that all teams have coaches, very true but how many of them come onto the field?

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You forgot 5) They're teenagers, and teenagers know everything

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There is really no need for a debate on this topic. You cant state that a mentor is better than a student at being the coach, or vice versa, because it doesn't make sense. Being a mentor or student has no effect on their ability to coach during a match, it all depends on the specific individuals who want the position.

Would you rather have a 4th year senior as strategist, or a first year mentor?
From the other perspective, would you rather have a 8+ year experienced mentor, or a rookie student?

In my opinion, the best option is to allow both mentors and students the opportunity at the coaching position. Let the drivers choose who they prefer, and call it a day.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I hope your coach is not going on the field... That'd be dangerous! lol

As for me I was lucky enough to be coached by an amazing man (Ken Patton) and I think I changed who I am. There is no way to explain how his important that relationship was to me and I would not trade it for anything. I have nothing against student drivers but the its not what I would choose for my team. I am now a coach for the rookie team we started and I can only hope that one day I can be half the coach he is and have a lasting impact on my students.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

With regards to the coach I think that a mentor who has done it for a while can be very helpful in guiding the drivers and the position of coach is really a position of mentoring the driver.

With regards to the strategist. I was really my teams first real strategist. When I graduated and decided to come back as a mentor I did not know what I would do come competition time. I have always believed that this competition is about the students and not just the winning and as a mentor I had to do as little as possible while guiding the students to do as much as possible. Because of this I did not want to come back and just run things like I did when i was a student but I also wanted to help my team win. I decided that the best thing to do was to work along side a student with them making all the decisions and me giving my opinions but the final say being theres not mine. I believe the position of strategist should be that of the students and just like with the robot they should make the decisions with the advice and assistance of the mentors.

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1726 hasn't had an adult on the drive team since Tom left..... :o

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Lucky stiff!

An effective coach can be a student or an adult. In a group of 50 students and 50 adults, there will be a greater number of qualified coaches in the adult group. This means that, for your team, some years you might not have a student who can be effective. After all, is it fair to the rest of the team to reduce the team's competition success by selecting a student simply because they are a student, if they are significantly unqualified?

That being said, it would be a rare year when NO student was qualified (assuming they get training) to coach the drive team.

1676 does not have a policy that a student must be the drive coach, but we'll work hard to find a qualified student before falling back on a mentor.

But, like Indy Sam, many mentors would simply like the fun of being on the drive team. Having done it, I can say it's really a lot of fun, a nice reward for the hours, blood, sweat and tears.

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Reading all this (over and over again every year!) I still want to go back to the days (yup I am "old" & dating myself) when every drive team had TWO coaches. With that rule, my senior year, Aces High started putting in one adult and one student as coaches. (Yeah scroll way the heck down, you will see my name... ::sigh::!)

To me, this was the ultimate inspiration. Yeah I was a senior, had been the MVP of the team for three years, had held the lead strategist as well as pretty much every other position on the team... but when it came to walking on that field and being in charge, I was still nervous. I knew my stuff, but I was up against teams like Chief Delphi!! Having the mentor at my side made things so much easier, and gave me the confidence I needed.

The next year, when I started 229 and I was now "The Mentor", I brought a student coach with me, and I was now the only one with field experience. Having stood side by side with my mentor the previous year, I knew what I had to do and I knew how to help the student learn & grow.

Since they aren't likely to bring back the days of 5 person drive teams, I am still of the opinion do what works for your team, but make sure you understand your goals. Some team's highest goal is to win, some is to give as many opportunities to students, but all of us are here for inspiration. Everyone's definitions may vary, but as long as it works for your team RUN with it!

Oh and by the way, I am sitting next to an "old guy" who between he & one of our other mentors could probably out-video game any kid these days... ;-) So drop the video game debates already!

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Wow this thread kinda highlights why I don't post here much any more. :rolleyes:

I was my team's driver for two years in 2005 and 2006 during which time we didn't have a set coach (they just rotated mentors and students) so it was left to the drivers to handle those responsibilities too, including hearing every complaint/ suggestion from every member of team after every match.

I returned to our Drive Team in 2008 to Coach. One of the main things I wanted to do was try to shield my Drivers from inevitable barrage of "Monday morning quarterbacking" I had to deal with. I wanted them focusing on what they need to be doing not stressing over what happened. I collect all the relevant feedback and tell them what they need to hear. Every member of our Drive Team participates in match prep, I may lead them early in the season but as time goes on I try to easy the students into leading the discussions.

I believe one of the most important things a Coach has to bring to the field is calm steady voice, are there student that can do this? yes absolutely

I've seen match where student Coaches handled themselves and their Drive Team calmly and professionally, I've had the great pleasure of coaching also side them as well as legendary coaches like Ken Patton and Paul Copioli.
On the other hand I've seen matches where both mentor and student coaches have gotten panicky and touched the controls.

Its what works for your team, but Coaches need to tell the Drivers what they need to hear not what they want to hear.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Thanks for the talent, by the way. :cool:

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Team MARS has always had a policy of student coaches and as far as I know that policy will continue. We of course recognize that that teams with adult-coaches bring home more blue banners on average, but our reasoning is as follows: as much as our mentors inspire us, and teach us, and are involved during build season, at the competitions and all that time in between, we feel that the students should "own" their successes and defeats on the field. We want and trust the students to be the representatives of our team down there on the field. Additionally we value the life skills (leadership etc.) that student coaches have the opportunity to develop. I would also like to add that after having been on the drive team, we've found student-coached alliance partners to be (generally) more amicable and better team-players than adult-coached teams. Of course issues almost never ever arise, and we only have our experiences to go on.

All this being said I don't think that any of these arguments can be generalized or applied broadly in any way. Every team is different and should, as a team, make these decisions based on what works well for them, and based on what they want/expect to gain from the "match" experience.

2cents,
-Luke

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

It would be interesting to see which student coached, college student coached and adult coached teams separately have the most regional wins. It would just be really difficult to compile.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Younger != faster reflexes. You are making the false assumption that "adult" means ancient and slow and frail. You realize I count as an "adult" as does my younger brother. I'm pretty sure that we have at LEAST equivalent reflexes to any student out there.

Played video games? REALLY? Multiple information streams... ok, come watch my development method sometime, 2 machines, 3 monitors, hundreds of tabs... I never lose anything. Age/video gaming has nothing to do with information processing.

Friends? Sometimes that is a downside, when a coach says to do something the driver needs to do it not take it as a suggestion from a friend.

As an adult I've scouted, driven, and coached. I also have 8 years of watching events, that experience is never a hindrance. I also have the benefit of knowing many of the other coaches and am able to formulate an educated guess on what they will do based on my interactions with them. How many students can claim that?

Heck, if your next argument is that we adults get tired and cranky too easy (since that would complete the rest of this stereotype) I would encourage you to try to keep up with me for a day, should be pretty easy right? After all, I'm old and slow and can't process information.

Excuse me, I have to go see the attendant about my sleeping pills for my nap. Where did I put my cane?

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Your coach needs to be mature, quick on their feet, able to keep their cool under pressure and EXPERIENCED. If a student can satisfy those requirements, by all means they should not be held back, however I've seen VERY VERY few students capable of handling all of those requirements. The big one is experience.

There are just so many situations that can arise both planning for a match and during a match that it is very important to have someone there who can speak from experience when dealing with a situation.

Whatever your team chooses is their own choice. Every team has their own preference, and because FIRST does not decree in the rules that a student or mentor HAS to be the coach, there is NO POINT in arguing which is "better".


-Brando

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Taking a few swings at stereotypes this morning, Andrew? I'd be careful with that. ::safety::

Bottom line, the FIRST programs are suited for multi-generational interactions and partnerships. FRC provides many opportunities for children of all ages to work together and celebrate a great competition and program. It's part of the magic.

Jane

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

The most common associated position on the drive team when mentioning mentors is the coach, so I am going to talk mainly about that position.

We like to use students for our drive team, since we try to be as student run as possible. However, if we have a student who wants to be a coach, but has not had any experience on the field, we will have one of our coaches coach and have the student be the human player. That way, the student follows the coach around, learning what responsibilities come with the coach and experiences the environment of being on the field during a match and competition. I was in this position last year, and I ended up coaching Virginia and Atlanta. It depends what the specific team thinks in regards to mentors being on the drive train, but our motives for having a student drive team is because we want our team to be as student run as possible, with some exceptions, that is.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I believe that the adults should stay off the field. Do you see any coaches in sports step onto the field? No, they are always on the side lines. The "coach" on the field should be a student leader. Just like how there is a leader on any sports team.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Oh, from the post I quoted I thought this thread was where we posted misguided stereotypical crap.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I posted earlier on this thread and I just wanted to add that I have driven under a mentor as a coach and I am pretty sure I got just as inspired as I would have if he had been one of my peers. Through the coaching process I got to know him very well and we had a lot of fun together, I guess I'm just saying that it can be just as inspiring to be told what to do by someone older than you as a peer (especially if you win :D )

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

For those of you who are questioning the inspiration of Adult & Mentor coaches, I have a question.

Have you ever been on the Field with one of those Dynasty Coaches - you know, the coaches that have been to Einstein more times than you've been to the finals? Have you ever been across the glass from Paul Copioli, Shared a Driver's Station with Shaun McNulty, or watched how Raul Olivera coaches 111's drivers? I know both as a student and a mentor, just the aura around these individuals was inspiring, not to mention the insight and help they provide is invaluable.

To me, these coaches truly inspiring.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

When you get to the competition portion of this program, it should be the goal of the 4 people on the field to get the absolute most they can out of the 120 pound machine placed on the field. Those 4 people have the responsibility to put into play the hundreds of hours of work from the team, the pit crew, the scouts, the sponsors and everyone else attached to the program.

For those 2 minutes of play time, that means the best combination of driver, operator, human player and coach to accomplish that should be the ones on the field.

Although often the same person, the person who put in the most hours is not necessarily the best person for any of those roles. I don't think any of those roles should be a "reward" for time put in - the decisions need to be based around what is the best combination of 4 people to be on the field. That might be a mentor for the coach, that might be a student. It might be the kid who puts in 30 hours a week in the shop, it might be the one that had other committments and could only do 15 - but has an unbelievable ability to drive or strategize.

We all have roles to play and sometimes those roles are out in front and sometimes they are in the background. The best result for the team should be the primary consideration.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

The coach doesn't play any of the game in robotics, just like football.

How many high school football teams have student coaches?

Why do you think this is?

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

The only appropriate reply to this entire thread:

"That's just, like, your opinion, man!"

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Couple of things.
Robotics is not a sport.
And in football the coaches call the plays (strategies of robotics) but its the QB that calls the autables (the coach). Also I would argue that the coach does play the game, they are the QB, Point guard, or any other leader of a sports team.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

We are all in the FIRST Robotics Competition.

Key word being Competition. FRC may not be considered a "sport" by the masses, but it is still a competition, and the point of any competition is to compete, be competitive, and win - though some may disagree with the last two.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

And those people would be WRONG. (Not an opinion, it has been outright stated that we should be trying to win numerous times.)

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

If poker is a sport, robotics is definitely a sport. We do more than move playing cards around... (Hey, poker does show up quite often on ESPN, who is known as "the worldwide leader in sports".)

In this game, the coach does both strategy and audible calling. Strategies are worked out with the entire alliance before a match--don't leave your coach out of that. Audibles are called on the field by the coach. And, in sports like basketball and hockey, the coach is on the sidelines calling signals to his team throughout the game, not just at defined points in time.

However, sports comparisons do fail. What sport gives you a random team every time you take the field? What playoff tournament allows you to pick your team after dishing out the random teams in qualifying?

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Go about picking your coaches your own way; if the team (both drive and general) is comfortable with the choice, no point trying to fix something that isn't broken. If you're not, explore the options; it really is all about the individual you choose to be the coach, not a sterotype based off their age.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Just a thought for this topic as this thread begins its descent into emotional fractured disagreement:

With the way that FRC is set up, students cycle up and through the program until they are eventually out as active participants unless they decide to mentor or volunteer or become a sponsor. The cycle renews and replenishes each season, bringing in new participants who are at the beginning stages of understanding FRC and the opportunities that are made available. These opportunities occur constantly - during build, competition, and during the off season. It is hoped that as participants mature and gain experience, that they become more open with each passing season, to the rich variety of opportunities made available to improve with and to learn from, as individuals and, as teams.

Readers of the threads that contain topics like these are interested in learning and gaining insight and/or understanding. If posts are filled with strong opinions, sarcasm, mud-slinging, and rude disagreements, that narrows the opportunities to learn and to understand the bigger picture. Give learning opportunities a chance. If you are frustrated and decide to post in a manner that is creating an atmosphere of derision, then walk away and take a break. You are missing a great opportunity by being a know-it-all, yourself.

Jane

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Before people get sidetracked into FIRST is/isn't a sport discussions, please look up 'nominalism' and ponder why discussions like that are a giant waste of time. :D

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

The student vs. adult coach question surfaces almost every season. I've given my opinions on it in many of those threads, and I think that this post that I wrote two years ago is still a valid representation of my opinions on the issue. Basically, there isn't any one right answer to your question, you have to do what feels right for your team.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

There was a time when the FIRST Championships were on ESPN.
So even ESPN thought FIRST was a sport.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Our team has had better success with an adult coach on the field, versus student based on the # of banners. Both have brought home banners.

However, as Chris F. pointed out, its about the best combination/chemistry of 4 members that represent the drive team, giving you the best chance to win.
All that learning mumbo jumbo......................, if you've been through an entire FRC season before, there's lots of opportunities for that.

Heck. The only time I ever get to really talk to the great mentors of other teams is on the field!

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I agree with Glenn,
One of the only times I get to see the other mentors is on the field and I thoroughly enjoy working with you and other mentors on the field.

i think everyone needs to do what is best for their team...the team is important and putting your best drive team on the field is what is best for the team.

I remember when a teacher at my school once complained because only 3 students operated the robot... how could that be good for a group of students? I tried to explain to him that the drive team was just a small part of what was happening...EVERYONE on the team is important and we all do our jobs the best we can.

On our team I am the coach on the field. I, like many other coaches, have had a great deal of experience on the field... I think at last count I had coached well over 300 matches at regionals and the world championship. Many times the experience that I have has helped our team.

I may be old and feeble...(lol) with no attention span and an inability to do more than one thing at once. but I don't find those things to be a deficit on the field. They even let me bring my walker out onto the field... but they won't let me bring the seeing eye dog...(:0)) (He can't see over the drivers station anyway so it wouldn't help much...)

I don't find those traits hold me back much as an engineer and college professor either..

Find out what is best for your team and go for it.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

smurfgirl, such reasonableness and tolerance will not be tolerated. This is the internet!

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

IMHO a mentor taking the coaching position is the easy way out. It is far more difficult to hone the communication skills and analytical skills of a student, to shape them and guide them but I have seen first hand how rewarding it can be.

that being said it is not a clear cut thing, and there are certain situations and teams that it works well for.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

What our team has decided on doing is, pick a human player tall and strong enough to launch the tube, then do drivers training to pick a good driver, do some co-pilot driving to pick the best co-pilot and then have the drivers pick the person they work best with because otherwise there will be no communications. AT ALL. Trust me this is true and if you think about it this has been happening for centuries. I mean look at men and women, men don't always listen and women have selective hearing. It's give and take people and to take you need to listen. Now this is going on and on so i will shut up but that's an idea.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

In addition, The Scripps National Spelling Bee is normally on one of the ESPN channels.

For the record: ESPN is The Entertainment and Sports Programming Network.

Lots of things can be thrown under "entertainment" and not be a sport. I will leave it to the reader/viewer to decide what they deem to be a sport.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Our team chooses to have a student be the coach. We too have that "mentors hands off" approach. Also, IMHO, i think it should be the students out there. If, for example, two coaches from different teams had different opinions about the strategy for their alliance, and one was a mentor and one a student, i think it would be expected to go with the mentor's opinion, because of their experience, while the student's could be just as valid.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

Like everything else in FIRST, whether it's better for the drive team to be all student (or not) depends on whether the students are learning anything from having a mentor present. Just having a mentor on the drive team so your team does better in competition is not the point of FIRST. Likewise, preventing mentors from being on the drive team just so the team is totally student run isn't the point either. If the students learn something valuable from having the mentor there (strategy, GP, grace and ability to perform under pressure), great. Those are all important concepts mentors can help with, but in an ideal world the drive team could be coached about this ahead of time. For example, in the past, I've intervened when our drive team students were getting a bit too emotional and straying from the gold standard: GP & Calm, Cool and Collected. Now we have those discussions ahead of time (or after the fact if it occurs), and we tend to have less of that problem.

The ultimate, IMHO, is having the mentors collaborate with, and properly prepare students in advance for the stress/fun/challenge of the drive team experience. Then cut them loose. You can always chat about what could have been done better after the match.

But for rookie teams, or teams with a very young/inexperienced drive team, having a mentor is probably a good idea.

Re: Mentors on drive team
 

I find myself agreeing with the importance of having a good drive coach. Since there will be an analyst they could take care of overall alliance tactics for the match while showing the signals to the feeders. I believe it should not matter if the person is a student or mentor if they have what it takes to assist that drive team. Students may have more knowledge of the rules and thinking up of how to assist the drive team due to generally, more free time. Mentors may have more experience from past competitions or life experience to lead that drive team.
There is no right answer ever since circumstances always are changing under our noses.