Can we use globe motors this year?
 

My team is disapointed with the change of motors this year and we have gotten into a discussion over wether using the old globe motors is legal. Any answers for us?
Thanks!

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Read the manual.......

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Can you use them? That would depend on your level of experience...

May you use them?
Not on a legal FRC robot...this year.. so far

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Short answer:


Read the Manual::rtm::

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

You can use the globe transmissions, if they weren't modified previous to this season, and adapt a kit motor to the housing. There are easier ways to get what you need via AndyMark and Banebots. :) :)

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

No, but you are merely feeling a sense of withdrawal, the same experienced by many teams upon the removal of the van door motor or the drill motors from kits in years past. The mighty Globe has finally run it's course. :D





I still experience a sense of withdrawal when I see a van door motor laying around the shop.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

would've been nice this year, seeing as banebots has a 10-15 day lead time for gearboxes

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Not to go too much off tangent, but wouldn't it be nice if game hints actually told you what motors and quantities were in the KOP so that teams could order ahead of time?

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

No.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Yes

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

no, and the bane bots are a major disappointment as well, the rs775 is only 70 watts of power at 12 volts.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

This is not true at all. The RS775-18v is over 200 watts of power when operating at 12v.

FIRST's spec sheet refers to the 12v model.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

At 40A, the rs775 has 270 Watts output, the same as a CIM.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I have a question related to the tangent about the banebots motor...

Did the kit include the RS-775-18 or RS 775 12

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

It included the 18v motor. You should use the 18v motor.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I have to say I too am extremely dissapointed with banebots but also with FIRST for eliminating all the great motor options we used to have- Two FP motors, Globe motors, Van door, Keyang, seat motors. KOPs from the past used to have such a variety of power options, now all we have are little screamers that whizz along at 20000 RPM (aside from the sacred CIMs). I am sure it has made life much harder for many rookie teams and those short on resources.

It is my firm belief that banebots donated the motors to FIRST in hopes of it generating business for their company. What do you do with a motor that has a 20000 RPM output? The only logical solution given our weight and size restrictions is a planetary reduction. Who has the planetary reductions?

Unfortunately I don't think Banebots anticipated the demand for their product and as a result the teams are paying the price in lost build time. I applaud Banebots for donating the motors for the KOP but I am furious that due to a lack of other options we have essentially been forced to buy their products to build our robots. What's next? CIMs replaced by RS775s? All they have to do is donate a couple more RS775s with some CIMulators and FIRST will nix the CIMS. Then they have a monopoly on the motor supply to all teams and we are at their mercy.

Anyway, I have to get back to dissassembling cordless drills and trying to retrofit globe gearboxes...... :mad:

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Strangely we started using window motors this year, we only need two motors for our mechanisms (and one pneumatic cylinder, so I guess we also need the compressor with it's motor). The window motors seem to be a pretty good fit with our two armed robot. And they're free. And we have spares. We never have been able to figure out how to use a Globe motor for anything, ever.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Gosh, I hope we never have 775's as the main motors in a DT. It isn't a power thing it is a thermal mass thing. The CIM weighs in at a beefy 2.5 pounds and that heat dissipates through most of the motor. This makes it pretty hard to cook a CIM. Compare this to a 775 which is a pretty small motor with a ton of power. If we stall those out (a real possibility) they will cook much faster than a CIM.

Cordless drills, DOHT! Stupid Andrew, you have like 6 of those old Bosch transmissions sitting in the back room. Even pulled 4 of em off old bots. I'm gonna go bang my head on a wall in embarrassment of my mental failing.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Why do you really need to gear the motor(s) that slow? The slowest shaft on our 2011 robot only needs a three-stage reduction, and that's our drive train in low gear. All other mechanism shafts on our robot spin well over 1000 rpm at nominal load. None of these are accomplished via planetary gear reductions, but rather via simple spur gear or timing belt speed reductions.

Seriously, with the FP and "choose any four" BaneBot offer, I absolutely love the motor selection this year. There are up to nine motors you can use on your robot that output over 250 Watts each! Compared to ~85 Watts for Globe, and less than 50 W for any past Window motor, this year's motor selection is the best I've ever seen (since 2004). No other year has a team been able to throw over 1000 Watts into a manipulator and not sweat taking away drive train performance. While some may question the sanity of one kiloWatt manipulators, if you want to fly on water, you need power!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I am supposed to be afraid of offending the FIRST and BaneBot gods? This is an open forum and I am entitled to my opinion. Futhermore, teams have paid significant sums of money to compete in this competition. FIRST delivers a product and we expect it to be of the highest quality. These "slippery slopes" although possibly offensive and seemingly ungrateful representations of people's dissatisfaction are what help improve the FIRST product.

I hope you don't have an arm on your robot.

I agree, the power is nice but not if you can't use it. Why not go for more motors like the CIMs with a reasonable 5000RPM output? - The answer is they're more expensive and the temptation to turn down a free set of motors is irresistable to the KOP designers. If the BaneBot motors were indeed a donation, then why did they have to get rid of all the other motor options? Why not improve the KOP and make it more diverse rather than saying "Oh, well we have these four motors... that should be enough..."

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

free is free... you want to pay extra for non-free motors? FIRST isn't made out of money.

maybe AM will make a compatible planetary next year... it can't be that hard...

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Yes- yes I would. Very much so. BaneBot gearboxes arent free either and so far we have blown over $300 on gearboxes we likely won't even use.

The BaneBot motor set retails for about $40 straight from their site. YES I would most definitely pay $40 if it had meant we could keep the old motors and have the BBs too. FIRST doesnt even have to supply the motors- For all I care they don't have to give us any motors at all- just provide us with a fast reliable and expedient way to buy them. These components are DIRT cheap! Especially when purchased in bulk quantitites. Why do you think BaneBots got into supplying FIRST with motors? They retail on their site for between $5 and $20 and thats including a markup for their business so you can imagine how cheap their FOB (fresh off the boat) cost is. The same applies to motors of the past. They really aren't that expensive. Even the CIM retails on BB's site for $28.

To reiterate- YES I have no problem buying all the KOP motors if it means we get a greater variety to choose from.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

You never could buy a Globe motor.....

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

This is a false statement. I have ordered them prior years many times.

I agree with this. We have noticed a large reduction in the amount of stuff we get in the kits without a reduction in kit cost also.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Don't forget the mighty drill motors from before the CIMs, or the giant FP CIM from 06. :D

or the "high torque" servo . . but that wasn't all that useful other than for ballast.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Where from? how long ago?

The Banebots transmissions are a hot item, I wonder why that is?. Looks like it's time for someone else to get into the small planetary transmission business, if BB can't keep up. There could be money to be made! Their transmissions fit standard motors...there's nothing proprietary about the motors they sell. That's probably why they are so inexpensive.

Art's right about the slippery slope thing...claiming that we won't be able to use CIMs in the future for our drivetrains based on the fact that we get 4 Banebots motors in the kit this year, is kind of ludicrous.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

It's be nice to invest some capital into tooling and designs for comparable transmissions, but then of course we could always not get the BB motors in next year's kit. :yikes:

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

yup.

Where did the Globe motors come from? Were they donated? How much do regular production motors like that cost through normal distribution channels? The Globe is a nice heavy motor, but it's not something I'd want to be buying 8,000 of at normal cost every year.

Perhaps the GDC ought to consider defining a set of standard motor interfaces...the assortment of BB motors this year sort of does that, and continues a trend over the past few years.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I think you completely missed the point of his post. The link provided did not say "you're not allowed to dislike FIRST's decisions", it said that saying something is bad because other unrelated decisions would be bad is a logical fallacy.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I believe the Globe motors were used in automatic 4x4 transfer cases, but I've never confirmed it.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=24540

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

It's my understanding that Globe made (or had surplus?) a special motor that was very close to the one used in transfer cases used in certain GM models, and that you could buy one that was almost the right one from GM, but Globe would not sell them, they only donated. But I could be wrong.

My main point is that the Globe is not commonly available, it's hard to interface, and it's only available in one size and ratio. It's not anywhere close to being an ideal robot motor. The Banebots motors are...although because of the variety of motors and transmissions available, and since there's no way for the company to anticipate what the specific parts demand will be (they just know it will be large), they can't make all the transmissions ahead of time.

There's no way to please everyone.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I think you're understating the value of the Globe. Yes, it had less peak power than other motors, but the Globe motor was probably the best "slow" motor in the kit.

You can build a 4-5 pound transmission with big sprocket reduction to make an FP drive an arm, or you can just plug a Globe motor into a modified Toughbox. You could run a BB motor with impossible to find BB transmissions to drive rollers on a claw, or you could plug a Globe directly into your roller claw and be done with it.

The Globe notably got medium to slow speed motion done reliably and easily without the weight of a heavier motor/transmission combo. If I could, I'd trade every Window motor in the kit for a Globe or two this year.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I suggest you talk to the Globe company and ask them to donate a lot more motors. But please please please ask them to put a standard output shaft on it, and more mounting holes! and it would be really nice if we could add or remove stages of the transmission more easily.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I assumed he was referring to my post as the start of a slippery slope statement which would initiate a chain of events. I now see what he was referring to- but it is not a slipery slope fallacy. THIS year FIRST accepted the donation of four BB motors and got rid of many of the older ones. My insinuation is that should BB donate a pile of RS775s and CIMulators, based on the precident set this year, I argue that they would be tempted to get rid of the CIMs. It is not a logical fallacy since a precident has been set. A precident that was preceeded by the Denso motors replacing the previous window motors and keyang, the CIMs replacing the Drills etc. When FIRST is offered a better deal on KOP parts, they take it in favor of their previous components.

Ah the days of the 300W+ Bosch drill motors :rolleyes: I forgot about the high torque servo! I wish I had one of those now...

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

And now you're on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumen...ng_a_precedent.

I'm not saying that I necessarily disagree with you on that, though.

I would hope that if BaneBots decided to donate a pile of CIM-U-Lators and motors, FIRST would not ditch the CIMs, especially not right away. If they did do that, they'd need to bring in another motor with lots of power and high reliability, or the complaining over Minibot rulings that didn't seem to make a lot of sense a few weeks ago would be a mild drizzle in winter compared to the outcry that would ensue. When the drills left, the CIM number was stepped up. When the Keyang left, more Densos were allowed. The Van Door motor didn't really have a replacement, much to the grief of quite a few people. The Globes were replaced with BB motors, as was an FP.

I think we're more likely to see CIMs and window motors kept and motors similar to the BB motors gradually disappear.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

The BaneBot motors will never replace the CIM motors in the KOP. While BaneBot motors may be capable of high power outputs under the right conditions, they are just not rugged enough to survive use in a typical FRC drive train without smoking. The CIM motor right now is probably the perfect mix of power output, ruggedness, adaptability, and overall cost for FRC drivetrain use.

The BaneBot motors likely replaced the older Globes, window motors, Van doors, etc because of one reason: all those older motors were at the end of their production runs, and the companies just donated/sold the remaining ones to FIRST. This is why is was nearly impossible to buy replacements for these motors anywhere; the only way to get more of these motors was to trade with another team. FIRST "got rid of" these older motors simply because they exhausted their donated stockpile, and could not get more from the donating companies. This is why I think the Denso window motor's days are numbered as well, as they have been unavailable for purchase for two years now.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Not to mention, that in a pinch, you could make a "fast" Globe by modifying the transmissions and either removing or negating a stage...

And if memory serves me correctly, you could stall a Globe for days (Not literally) without worrying about it burning out.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Just to be pedantic - the Globes were replaced with Window motors. When the Globes left the 2010 kit, we got 4 Window motors.

Personally I would be fine with the BB motor combination, if there was another supplier for the motors than Banebots. We got one of each in the kit but no one's going to use 1 BB motor. Everyone's going to use the 775s or 550s depending on application, with the others used sparingly. I would have liked 2 RS-775s and 2 RS-550s out of the box.

Rather than demand free / KOP transmissions for these motors I'd be content asking that they come with a pinion from now on so that you don't need a press to use the motor with a custom gearbox (i.e. to ream / install a COTS pinion)

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Ordering the motors is easy. It's their gearbox lead time that gets you.

The best solution would be to introduce some free-market competition, like if AndyMark were to introduce a COTS adapter plate to mount the 540/550 or 775 on one of their planetary gearboxes, for the teams that don't have easy access to a machine shop to make/modify their own.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

It's all part of the challenge. Every year it's "here's your energy converting devices, use them the best way possible." It doesn't matter if it because of vendor donations or GDC decisions, it is what it is.

We all have favorite motors but when we loose them we are taken out of comfort zone, that is a good thing.

Some day we may all loose our beloved CIM's too, maybe next year, who knows.

But it will all be part of the challenge that is FRC.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

:confused: The precedent has already been set? How is this applicable?

An argument from precedent is a claim that: "We should not do ***** because future people might misuse the precedent of doing ***** for the first time in order to justify doing something else."

In the case of the motors, ***** has already been done.

annnndddd......

http://thenightcheese.com/wp-content..._and_robot.jpg

Come now children, let us talk of robots, not critical thinking class.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I personally like the choice of motors in the kit.
It is a good balance and the BB motors allow quite abit of versatility.

The only change I would have made is to allow 2 FP motors instead of one.

For years we have had to struggle to find spare or replacement motors for a bunch of reasons... go out and try to buy a van door motor... or at least the right one...

For many years you couldn't get the correct FP motors either.

Now, we have a source of almost unlimited spares and replacements (CIMS and BANEBOTS)
We can get spares and play around in the offseason with different configurations.

As far as gearboxes... we are using the AM planetary gearboxes with the 550's ... and they work fine... I know other teams are using the 775's with the AM planetary.

so OK the AM gearbox is a little pricey at nearly 3 times what the CIMULATOR sells for... but it will work...

Back when I started we got no gearboxes...then we got a plastic sort of one for Stack-Attack...

Everyone should stop complaining... we have a great selection...

Building a robot is supposed to be a tough challenge... you really want to have bolt-on solutions? I greatly appreciate what AndyMark does and also Banebots... but it wasn't that long ago that neither existed... In some ways I think that was better...

Do some engineering...
improvise, adapt, overcome...

remember surrender is not in our creed!

that is all
Semper Fi

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

I was looking in the manual and am probobly just not seeing it, but are the banebot motors allowed on the minibot?

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

R92. No.

Re: Can we use globe motors this year?
 

Guys,
I use Globe motors in satellite dishes here at the station. I don't know exactly what influenced their absence from the KOP but I can tell you this much. Globe changed their policies on motors and parts numbers a few years back. In the past you had to choose a part number that included a motor (size, speed, power) and a transmission (reduction, shaft output, enclosure and mounting) from a long list of parts. The last time I had to replace our feedhorn drive, I found that the part number I had used for years was no longer valid. Instead, I would have to custom order a motor, which Globe would then assemble for me from a custom part number that represented all the options I needed. Since Globe no longer has premade motor/transmission combos on the shelf, I am guessing that they also cannot donate such an item from stock as they have in the past. Sometimes the KOP changes simply because the part no longer exists.