Human players first move
 

Autonomous ends drivers take control of the robot and the human players...

no game prices on the field so this decision is very important.

What tube do they reach for and how do they put it on the field and why?
is this even something that will make a difference? I think it does...

Re: Human players first move
 

come up with some kind of system to communicate with human player and drivers!

Re: Human players first move
 

A lot of what happens next is decided by the robot capabilities and the alliance strategy that is pre-determined before the match.

If your strategy is a shutdown defense and win with minibots (IE your alliance has 2 good minibots and the opposing alliance has none) then your human players don't do anything really. It's REALLY hard for an alliance to overcome 50 points on the rack and you don't want to give them any more opportunities at tubes then they will get from their own HP's.

If your strategy is a pure offense, hopefully you decided pre-match what robot was going to get what tube and where they are going to place it.

If the opposing alliance has 3 robots with no ground pickup ability then i'm telling my human players to be pretty liberal with throwing them on the field.

It's hard to directly answer your question because every match will be different. That's why match strategy to me is the most fun and important aspect of FRC.

Re: Human players first move
 

I have been thinking about strategies for the distribution of tubes longer than have been thinking about robot ideas and let me tell you if you can't communicate you better due some very good planning!

Re: Human players first move
 

Personally, I find this to be very simply answered. If you are a strong main scorer, than your human player should be across the field from you (not the analyst). Then this human player needs to have a strong knowledge of your strategy. For example, say in autonomous you place an ubertube over a circle peg. Then it would be most logical if the first tube he gave you was a circle because this would get the most points. Then if you go back and he sees that someone has already filled the square of that logo, or is already carrying a square, he would give you a triangle.
The problem arises when the human player is not paying attention to what the alliance as a whole is doing or does not understand the game. However, the analyst can remedy this thanks to one of the more recent team updates that allowed for non-powered communication devices for analyst to feeder communication.

Re: Human players first move
 

assuming a heavy offense strategy at least one human player should IMO throw a white circle onto the field. At the begging of the match the field will be in general the most clear and open so the circle will have a path to roll which when it does can make the full length of the field. One robot scores that while the other two get triangles and squares.

Definitely agree with loading the field up with tubes if the opposing alliance can't pick up off of the floor. Pit scouting to find out the opposing robot capabilities will be important this year.

I understand each match will be different but I think that is not too early to discuss the technique of tube distribution in general.

Re: Human players first move
 

If I'm on an alliance where my robots can't pick tubes up off the floor and you start throwing your scoring pieces onto the field, I'm going to have my alliance busily pushing your scoring pieces into our safe zones where you can't get them.

But what do I know, I'm just an old, blind, slow-witted, feeble mentor ..... ;)

Re: Human players first move
 

It will be a heavy debate in strategy (you're very lucky if you're a later regional, BAE/Granite State Regional is very stacked this year). We're working out a concrete base strategy.

Re: Human players first move
 

How are tubes going to be stored?
Are they going to be in stacks next to the human player?

Re: Human players first move
 

From my understanding, pretty much. They have to be in the feeder station somehow; as long as they are over the line SOMEHOW, they're in the feeder station and that's where they stay unless you pick them up.

Re: Human players first move
 

And not encroaching into the territory of the adjacent ALLIANCE STATION, which is not the FEEDER's property.

Re: Human players first move
 

Correct, nice catch Gary.

Re: Human players first move
 

Your going to fill your 'safe zones' with tubes that you can't pick up?

How are you going to get near your feeder slot with 3 tubes between you and the feeder slot? Or approach your rack if there are tubes between you and the rack?

I thought that might actually be a viable strategy against you, especially in the loading zone and your robot needs to be close to the feeder slot to get your tubes.

Re: Human players first move
 

Remember, ur gonna have three coaches that can help with the communication process, and that u can always hold up the tubes and get a thumbs up

Re: Human players first move
 

I don't see this as being a problem. A 150 lbs robot traveling more than 0 fps will win a pushing match with a tube any day of the week. If you ram into a tube trying to get to the feeder station the tube will move out of the way or at least flip up against the wall. I can't seeing this being a problem for any robot let alone be a stratigy. I would, however, consider it a good stratigy to remove potential points from the opponents reach by stealing/pushing tubes in the middle of the field to your side. Not only do you not have to go as far to get a tube but your opponents are robbed of the same opportunity.

my 2 cents

Re: Human players first move
 

Yeah if you can pick them off the ground then it's a great strategy.

And don't discount tubes being an annoyance in your safe zones, in a game where speed of scoring will be everything, any sort of extra obstacle is going to slow you down.

Re: Human players first move
 

honestly i am slightly concerned with this concept of having a coach or analyst communicate, hold up a sign give a thumbs up what ever. Is it just me?

The match should be so fast paced. I would hate for a robot to be waiting with out a tube when some human player is waiting for a signal?!?!?

Re: Human players first move
 

We would LOVE for our opposing alliance to throw tubes out on the floor. Just less work for us..

Do your scouting..
and communicate before a match...

Really though, how many times do you think you will be up against an alliance that has NO minibots?

That same alliance will probably not be able to do much on the rack either...

The strategy of counting on 50 points at the end may backfire when you realize that the other team can also play defense on you trying to get to the pole....

i would think you would want a balanced attack..

Remember if a team comes in 3rd and 4th in the minibot race... you only have a 25 point advantage...one scored logo on the top rack with one uber tube is equal to 30 points...

so an ubertube and 3 tubes on the rack (at high level) will beat a team that captures both big prizes in the minibot and doesn't score anything else...if the tube scoring alliance puts 2 minibots up...

With no minibots it will take a full top row..(60 points) (with 2 ubertubes)


I would hazard a guess that a team that can put 3 tubes up and an uber tube will also have a good minibot....

Remember, playing defense can go both ways... if you are defending... you have to go through the teams that you are defending to get to your pole...if you are keeping them out of the scoring area... 18 feet wide is a big zone... don't count on controlling it for the whole match ....

Good luck!!

Communication before the match and teamwork during it will be a huge factor in this game.

Re: Human players first move
 

Ahh, you never played Rack-n-Roll. Single tubes kept teams from being able to access their teammate's ramp or lift.

Re: Human players first move
 

Yep, cause then you can't get them either!

My experiences with Rack'n'Roll in 2007 were that robots had no problem with tubes on the floor. Once or twice over the whole season a tube on a ramp caused problems, but I don't see any ramps so far this year ....

Re: Human players first move
 

Your right, I never played it. However, I have watched an extensive amount of videos from the year. Although tubes occationally stopped teams from getting on ramps I saw more tubes preventing the ramps from dropping all the way to the ground. Is it possible that those exceptions where a tube actually prevented a robot from getting up on a ramp was because the robot was riding up over the tube instead of contacting it on the bumpers due to the incline? Hmm... I think well do some testing with our robot and the tubes later this week to find if the tubes will be a problem.

Re: Human players first move
 

Einstein FM 1.3 disagrees. It didn't happen often, but when you can't push a tube out of the way with a world championship hanging in the balance, I think it is safe to say that it should be a concern. The channels to the human loaders are fairly narrow and I think dropped tubes may very well become a huge nuisance.

Re: Human players first move
 

Very true. I remember driving in Rack 'n Roll. Did it happen constantly? Not really. But enough? Oh yeah. Open field it's not big a deal (but don't forget <G34>). But in a narrow lane or even a crowded rack...you'd be amazed at the things that don't seem to matter until your hand's on a joystick. And it effects more drivers (though less for the better practiced) than one could probably pick up from video archives. It certainly should monopolize your overall strategy, but I wouldn't ignore it. (practice, practice, practice)

Re: Human players first move
 

For us, at least, a tube on the floor in our safe zone or the lane is not a problem. If it's in our way and we have a tube then we push it without any drama then go back and get it - and with the bumper zone being where it is this year, I doubt many teams will have issues pushing a tube out of the way.

IMO, the caparison to 2007 isn't the greatest one, or at least not for tubes on the floor causing issues. In 2007, ramps were in play, which allowed robots to drive over the tube pretty easily, not to mention every 10th lift or so wasn't successful because there was a tube under the ramp.

Re: Human players first move
 

IT doesn't matter which one they grab first. You just want to coordinate with your alliance partners to tell them which ones to give the robots. This can be done with the analyst.