Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I guess that's why we are pretending they don't exist. Thanks for the data.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Ughh.

Thanks for the update Jeff.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Amen to that. No Banebots at all costs here.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

The 550 motors, p60 line of gearboxes and Cimulator are all great products; unsure as to why you'd avoid them at all cost.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

It's more of an ethical issue than a practical one - if they have crappy 775s and continue to ship them out, I don't trust their quality control overall when I have reputable companies with better service to supply me with motors.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Might I ask: do all the motors appear to be identical? Or does it look they are not all made by the same manufacturer...

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

All of the Banebot RS775 motors we have (both existing ones from 2011 and the recently arrived ones from 2012, including both case-shorted and non case-shorted motors from both years), look completely identical. They both even have exactly the same writing printed on them:
in the exact same location on the flux ring.

The only difference is the 2011 motors were shipped with an orange Banebots sticker on them.

Edit: If Banebots did supposedly switch to a new supplier, I'm wondering if these are the remainder of old motors from last year they had in stock?

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

If all the Styrofoam is in the box, how do you know BB is at fault? Shipping companies don't intentionally damage goods, but they move a truly monumental number of packages and occasionally stuff gets dropped/run-over/what have you.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

That's four very high power motors your skipping out on for your robot (the 550s).

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

"Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

A lot of teams are naturally gun shy about these motors because of the huge failure rates teams saw last year. I'm not surprised at all that some teams are taking a "better safe than sorry" attitude when it comes to the 775's. Much like most things in life, it comes down to the risk to reward ratio. Is the higher power available from the 775's enough to justify the risk of my robot having severe electrical issues? Each team's decision will be based on just how risk adverse they are and how high of a risk they view the situation as. I know on 1114 we'll be giving these motors another chance, but at the first sign of trouble they'll be introduced to our arbor press.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

At least 4 losses could be directly attributable to case shorted 775s during our 2011 season. We tested them all prior to competition season. A short developed throughout Waterloo and ultimately started causing problems in GTR.

Even though checking the resistance between every match got us through Champs, we had to "blast" them 3-4 times, each time holding our breath hoping that it would work.

We got lucky... it worked every time.

A year off for the 775s is the plan so far for us. If we're forced to us them, they'll be completely electrically isolated. Plastic mounts, and 1st stage gearing.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Well that was really what I was getting at. How many freight cars of these things do they have in inventory. Maybe they're selling the new ones to non-FRC customers. Sorry to be so cynical.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Your going to crush them? If you do, can you post pictures/a video? On a side note, it would be cool to see a motor cut along its axis bisecting the shaft and case ;).

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

This is a mfr defect carryover from last year. Appears Banebots may be dumping known defective 775's on FIRST as I and others contacted Banebots
but they resisted acknowledging there was a problem.
I personally performed failure analysis, witnessed shorted turns to rotor core.

RS-775 rotors use epoxy coated core laminations as insulation, ineffectively.

(most motors use brown fiber insulation. check out CIM rotor. Epoxy, properly quality controlled, MAY allow a more compact motor & less labor to mfr)

Enamel windings short at iron lamination corners via break thru at tight bend.

Two windings shorted behaves as a shorted transformer winding
causing no load motor current to quickly increase, depriving motor of torque

if short to motor case = robot AL frame, it is Illegal and failed at inspection

(theoretical remedy: electrically isolate each motor to pass inspection, but problem will likely escalate as more turns shorted draws higher current & produces less torque; high localized heating leads to catastrophic smoke)

Shorts I measured were typically ~0.1 ohm to case (either terminal to case)
which requires a careful low ohm set-up

It's a smoking gun again this year.. This is a great well made motor otherwise.
PreTesting out of new box is essential if decision to use these.
At a regional last year 70% of new boxed spare parts 775's were shorted!

causing huge delays for teams counting on them (Team 207 et al)

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Adding to Dale's post...
The epoxy coating in and of itself cannot protect this problem from occurring. The vibration of the motor turning, heat cycling during operation and movement within the windings will eventually break through the enamel coating used to insulate the motor wires. The breakdown at the very least will cause the case short and as stated as more windings breakdown, current flows through the armature and from the armature to the case. As heat builds up for these conditions, further deterioration will occur robbing motor power and drawing higher currents. Sorry guys, I thought Banebots had solved the issue and it was behind us.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Exactly....the sender is responsible for packing the items sufficiently well to prevent damage under typical shipper handling.

I encounter this problem a lot when buying stuff on ebay, not many people know how to pack stuff. The most important thing is to not leave any empty space in the box, if the items are relatively heavy. Motors are heavy, the box needed to be filled with packing material, not air.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Just tested ours; one out of five was shorted. Disappeared after a zap, but it will be our worst case scenario backup.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Ever since the 550's got their plastic fins to push air, they hold up much better than they used to. I'd seriously reconsider ignoring them altogether.

Early adopters: either they're the bird that gets the worm, or they're the worm that gets eaten by the bird!

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I'm just saying how can you trust the Banebots brand when they are practically synonymous with poor quality control? AndyMark has much better service than them, so I'm going to use all AndyMark motors on my robot. Seems simple to me.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

That may be true of large industrial motors, but just look at all the other 300, 500, and 700 series motors in the kit and in other places, they almost exclusively use enamel coated wire. This is especially true of RC car motors, most of which are higher current than any that come in the kit and are 500 series motors.

Even the van door motor and the CIM that I've taken apart have used enamel wire, admittedly it was an old CIM. I don't think any motors in the KOP use fiber wire insulation, and I'd very much like to see one that does.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Jason,
The OP is referring to insulation between the enameled wire and the armature. It has different names but the effect is to protect the corners. Using enameled wire is virtually the only way to efficiently develop a magnetic field with the minimum amount of wire.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Al,
That makes a lot more sense, but I still don't think it's as common as he claims, most motors I've torn apart just use a nice think layer of enamel.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We got several that came in the other day and we have the same problem with ours as well.
This is/may be the first time we use Banebots this season.
We never touched them before ever since they had the transmission issues in their inaugural year being in the FIRST kit of parts.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Four brand new motors arrived today. All shorted. I'd call this the first sign of trouble...

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg736/sca...=640&ysize=640

We will not be using any RS-775 motors this year.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

This just made my day! :D

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

This is all very scary to read. We just ordered 4 of these motors. And where planing on using 2 on the robot.

Gonna have to test them out heavily before competition.

Has anyone experimented with trying to fix the shorts?

- Bochek

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

This is a pretty important point. Just isolating the motors won't fix all of the issues. These motors do get worse over time and will fail, regardless if they are shorted to your frame.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I shipped two of the four defective ones received back to BaneBots. We are awaiting the replacements. Once we get them we will let you know the prognosis.

Let's hope the these motors can at minimum spin...

I'd say it's pretty bad when you get a motor that can't even spin. I wouldn't doubt it was caused by poor packaging as our four 775's were shipped in a USPS small flat rate box.

Also we have noticed over the years that BaneBots enjoys "throwing" components in small flate rate Priority mail boxes. If I recall they shipped our planetary gearboxes last year like this with no padding and the box was bulging because they barely fit.

Poor quality control, long lead times (at least for us last year), and poor packaging. I don't blame anyone who has or is considering not using BaneBots as a robot part supplier. The same applies in the real world.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Brilliant work, BaneBots. You've obviously figured out how to make a shipping box larger on the inside than on the outside.

An RS-775 motor is Ø1.85 in. A USPS small flat rate box is for items up to 1.625 in thick. That leaves -0.113 in for padding on each side of the motor.

Let's see if BaneBots owns up to the packaging error, and provides free (working!) replacements in a timely fashion.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

WE got two 775s in and both of them are good. No signs of any defects.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We ordered 2 775's and 15 550's. 550's were all good, both 775's were bad. We are definitely not using 775's this year.

My kids followed your lead and did the same...

We used 775's all last year and had zero issues till the offseason and offseason presentations. Its pretty embarrassing when your robot won't work in front of a sponsor who donates over ($5,000) a year due to case shorts... We fixed the issue by swapping to a new 775.

Chris and others, 550's are some awesome motors and the cimulator/p60's are awesome as well. Don't rule out a supplier because of one issue, I know its a big issue but 550 are very good motors.

-RC

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

A manufacturing issue resulting a large number of defective motors is understandable; it happens to every supplier at one point or another. But continuing to sell the defective products to teams a full year later is just unbelievable.

I am very happy that the 2012 parts utilization rules make building a high-performing robot without BaneBots products an option.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

That's where I'm coming from

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Instead of crushing them, could I talk you into frying them instead? Hook them up to 12 volts and let us know how long it takes to release the factory smoke. That might be a useful bit of data for folks who are considering using them on drivetrain.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

The RS-775 motors have a know issue with a short to thr frame. The easy fix is to run 12v from terminal to frame. Do this independently from the other terminal. If there is indeed a short to the frame, it won't be after you do this process. We had this issue last year and shorted each terminal, independently, to the frame of the motor and ran those motors all season with no problem.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I'm sure you meant "applied 12 volts between" instead of "shorted".

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We locked the motor and hooked it up to a 12V battery. The magic smoke was released approximately 0.5 seconds after stall, perhaps less.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Thank you.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Do you happen to have a spare RS-550 laying around to test the same thing with?

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

The 775-18 is 273 watts at stall at 12 volts.

The 550 is 254 watts at stall and is much less massive than the 775-18.

Read this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=34

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I know as engineers we just love to solve problems. But the fact of the matter is that we should not be fixing these motors. FIRST and Banebots are knowingly sending out case shorted motors for use by children. (Yes, "children")

With all of our supposed focus on safety, FIRST should be demanding the immediate recall of all 775 motors for the season. No exceptions.

They are simply a hazard. Regardless of whether an adult works on the robot or not, you have the potential for a child to contact a machine which is drawing amps across the open robot frame.

When the problem has been understood for over a year, there is no excuse for distributing something so dangerous.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I wouldn't call them dangerous to people per-say but definitely dangerous to electronics, and completely unacceptable. First should find a good solutions, and alternative or a stern talk with banebots.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

No, the only reason we're willing to do destructive tests with the RS-775's is because they're defective and unsuitable for competition. They're scrap metal to us.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Maybe the 775s should be saved for the ultimate pole climbing minibot.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We placed an order for about 10 775's, about 3 or 4 of them had case shorts, we tested the ones off of our 2011 bot as well, 1 of them had a case short. This is a bunch of ##### @@@@!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: I don't want to re-inspect at Troy district and find continuity through our frame after the garabage motors have run in and shorted. Want to return them and go with FP's.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Let us know how that works out for you, OK?

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Probably not very well, 10 motors already mounted to CIM-ulator's is a heafty order to return.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

It's banebots problem, not yours.

I'd scream bloody murder until they not only took them back, but sent you a UPS/USPS/FedEx label for the return.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Banebots has a large history of not listening to any of us. How do you change that?

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Simple, don't buy anything from them.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

But seeing they are 4 of the motors we can use... and provide the simplest gearbox solution for those 4 motors....

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

No one said building robots was easy.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

It's the American thing to do. We're not financially supporting BaneBots this year.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

What I dont get is that the banebots make up 4 of our motors and are notorious for the case short issue, but the Fisher Price only makes up 2 of our allotted motors. So why doesn't first just let us use 4 Fisher Price motors and get rid of the bane bots all together.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Banebots doesn't manufacture any of their motors; I'm going to try to hunt down the chinese manufacturer/ source of their 550's and see if I can order directly from them instead of banebots.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

The AndyMarks, BaneBots, and FPs are all in the same class.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Point being we get rid of banebots and increase the quantity of another type of motor. Or find a different type of motor.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Halfway there! The AM motors are new this year. (And don't forget the ARA motor allowance.)

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

BaneBots is giving $30 worth of free materials to all 2,354 registered teams to use as they see fit. That's a donation of over $70k. Not small change, and I'm sure BB does even more for FIRST that is not covered in this one donation. I don't know that FIRST is ready to thumb their collective nose at a gold sponsor with years of involvement in competition robotics (not just FRC) and many other worthwhile products. The 550-series motors, the gearboxes, the wheels - they're all quality products.

I agree, take the 775s for a long walk off a short pier. The customer service at BB leaves something to be desired (to be fair we're pretty spoiled by VEXPro and AndyMark). But to dump a strong supporting company of FIRST? That's just not good business.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Selling faulty motors is not good business either. But I see your point. I know we will be using that $30 credit just because its free.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Our team has a no Banebots products policy.
We will not even use the voucher. If every team did this, a message would be sent about customer service and fair business practices.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Putting the 775's aside (as we are this year) you can still use:
4-550s
4 AndyMark Motors
2 FP (from a selection of 4, many of which teams have spares from prior years)
4 Cims
4 Windows
+ vex & Densos
1 Compressor

No team should have trouble finding enough (reliable) power for their drivetrain & mechanisms from the above selection.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

To be completely fair, their cost for those motors is clearly less than the retail price. Also, they can be reasonably certain that many teams will not participate in the voucher program, and that they will recoup a portion of their costs because they're in a monopoly position (because they don't disclose their supplier, which effectively limits our ability to get these motors on the open market, potentially at a better price).

I'd have a hard time believing that they do not turn a profit as a result of the FRC season. Contrast that to many of the other KOP suppliers, like Fisher-Price, which are only grudgingly in the business of selling parts to the public at all.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

AndyMark is out of the FP-673's [am-0821]. Because it's also a FIRST Choice item, are they not going to be restocked? If not, the 550's might be the only other option for a >200W lightweight motor on the shooters. I'd love to join a Banebots boycott on principle but unless AM gets more FP's in, we won't really have a choice.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

They gave me $30. I gave them almost $500 in return, and I'm not even comfortable with my quantity of spares at that dollar amount. If anyone else is buying like I am, I'd assume BaneBots is doing just fine.

Other than order processing slower than molasses in an Alaskan winter, I haven't had a problem with them yet. I'm giving them another shot, since there really is no other competitor in their niche market.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Straight from AM's website:
http://www.andymark.com/product-p/am-0821.htm

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We are a bit confused by the constant stream of BaneBots bashing on this forum. We understand that some people have concerns with the RS-775 so let me give a bit from our perspective.

We sold the RS-775 18V motor for 3 years prior to introducing it to FIRST last year with no problems and believed it to be a robust and reliable product. As a result of experiences by FIRST teams last year, we have been testing every RS-775 prior to shipping. We have had conversations with only one customer concerning manufacturing defects with an RS-775 purchased this year and replacements were sent out the same day.

Given the number of RS-775 motors shipped since implementing the 100% testing practice and the very low reported number of problems we believed our testing adequate. It should be noted that no attempt is made to fix any motor that fails testing - failures are removed from product inventory and isolated where they can not be accidentally mixed in with tested product. It would appear from posts in this thread that we may need to review parts of this process. We would ask for a bit of help from teams that have made posts about recent failures with RS-775s. We are particularly interested in posts by the following teams:

Team 1114 (post 224)
Team 1323 (post 231)

as both reported 100% failure on motors recently received and we have had no contact from them. Can someone from each of these two teams please post or send us your order number for the order you received these in and a detailed description of how you conducted your tests. Your order number will let us track to a particular lot of motors and your testing procedure may help us to enhance ours. We thank you in advance for your prompt response to this request.

As for some of the other stuff in this thread and on this forum in general, I'm not sure what to think. At a minimum it makes me question our continued support of FIRST. I'd ask that folks step back and read some of what is being posted from an objective view point and consider what kind of impression it leaves not only on BaneBots but on this forum and FIRST.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

we have been quite satisfied with banebots this year, all the 775s we ordered work perfectly as do the gearboxes, we were also very satisfied with the shipping time we ordered and within a week or so had the order in time. from our teams opinion banebots has been doing an infinitely better job as compared to last years problems.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We're for sure using our 550's for our bot, not matter what. While we personally haven't had any 775 problems, we decided to put off our orders for now. Along with that, we don't really need a 775 motor on our bot at the moment; The 550's work great for what we need!

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Order #7163022

All motors showed a small resistance (less than 2 ohms) between the terminals and the case. This is the same symptom we saw from our motors last year. Our order numbers from last year were: 7151274, 7150067 and 7145378.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Some people here actually defending other banebots products like the 550's and the P60 transmissions. Frankly, that's a testimate to how forgiving this community is. We saw 50% failure on our 775 motors last year. Some shafts were locked up coming out of the box. Some good ones later developed case shorts. Yet we still bought some products from banebots this year, though we'll never buy a 775 again (we even had one fail during championship inspection).

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Chief Delphi is not the FIRST majority, take the generalizations here with a grain of salt.

As other have stated, we very gladly support purchasing of 500 series motors as well as P60 gearboxes and Banebots wheels - all of which I just put in an order for worth around $200.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I'm not one of the teams you asked about but I am from a team who had a very negative experience with your company last year.

Last year I was the lead mentor on a team. Now, we didn't have many design resources and our work was slow, we didn't figure out what sort of transmission we needed for our arm until around week 3. We placed an order for the ones for our arm as well as the ones for our roller claw. We waited, and when we found out that the parts likely wouldn't be arriving until after the end of build season we were forced to make drastic changes.

Now, I understand that supply issues happen. But I would have expected that Banebots, as a supplier to FIRST for many years, would have been able to predict demand better than they appeared to. When nearly half the motors in our kit are from your product line and you make the easiest to interface gearboxes it is pretty safe to assume that many teams will be ordering from you.

And ultimately none of this really matters because it isn't you who has to tell a student that we can't build their design because the parts took 2/3 of our build season to ship. That's why I have a sour taste in my mouth for Banebots. I think they make competitive products at a fair price. I plan on using them in some of my projects. But I cannot count on them to ship in a reasonable time frame because they lost my trust.

I hope this explains to you my negative experience, if it doesn't I would be more than willing to talk with you in private about it. I hope that next year at this time we are all praising BB because I really do think they make some good products.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Having had major issues with the 775's last year, our team plans to use the 550's this year. They are a quality product, along with the gearboxes that banebots offers (provided you do not exceed the torque limitations on the gearboxes). We are slightly disappointed that we can't really expect to see our order any sooner than 2-3 weeks after it is placed, but we planned accordingly and have ordered in enough time so that we will get what we need.

As for the 775's I can't quite understand why they are still on the market. It seems as though there is something that causes these motors to short to the case consistently. So rather than throwing out the half that are shorted and shipping off the ones that are "okay" as per quality control, why aren't they looking to freeze the product line, improve the manufacturing process so there are no more shorts, and then roll out the product again when/if the short issue is fixed? These things don't just happen for no reason...there has to be a root cause of the shorting issue and it MUST be something that can be fixed. Do what engineers do and SOLVE THE PROBLEM. We thank you for your support banebots, but we resent your one faulty product that happens to be a valuable commodity in our competition.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I'll go ahead and stand up for them here. They offer a decent quality product at a fair price. Through family, I know what it's like to be a small company, and it isn't easy. Our 775 motor last year performed flawlessly and still does. Our 256:1 P60 on that motor wrecked its teeth, even with good grease, the steel ring gear, and the shaft very well supported, but we were exceeding the specified maximum torque with shock loads. We had zero problems with 64:1 and 16:1 P60s with 550s.

Banebots makes very useful products at really a very affordable price for what they are. There really is no competitor producing many of the products they do. The wheels are fantastic for certain applications.

Having come from FIRST way back in the stone ages when cordless drill motors/gearboxes and Skyway Wheels were the only game in town, I'm VERY glad BaneBots continues to support us.

Can the company improve a few flaws? Sure. Should we bash them so much on a forum to the extent they question their support for our whole program? No.

If you think you can do a better job than Banebots, you go try starting a company that produces and sells those same things and we'll see how that works out.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We have not contacted Banebots due to a few reasons:

A) We are darn happy with the p60 4:1 gearbox, literally we are using them all over the place.

B) We did not actually place the order, but if Adam (FRC973) has it please put it up. We put a bulk order in with 973 last year. Our issues happened after season even tho 973's happened during.

I am not remotely trying to be rude, but here's a perspective from our team:

In 2007 we used banebot gearboxes, we went through around 20-30 and even though we weren't remotely good that year. We still could not drive around. We found that a ton of teams were killing those gearboxes.

We bought the generation of gearboxes before the p60's and had issues with those. So we stopped using them in 08.

In 2009 we took another shot at them, we had the gears pretty much turn to dust as the gearbox on our intake exploded 4-5 times. Yes properly greased and well kept/mounted and the shaft was supported.

2010 we didn't bother using them.

2011, we took another shot at them and used the low reduction ones as basically an "integrator to fp's and other 550/775 style motors. We were extremely stoked and loved the new p60 line.

2012, we have ordered around 12 p60's and 12 rs 550 motors. Can't wait to get them. As they make our design a lot easier.

Banebots, the real issue, a lot of teams have here is simply that the 775 motor has lost teams a lot of matches and some of the products have been garbage.

We are still using parts from banebots but we've been bitten multiple times. There's only so many times a team will allow it, we as a team have the resources to just cut our own 32DP gears and call it day.

But we are still using banebots this year.

-RC

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I'm constantly guilty of being a wall-rider for many scenarios, and this one is the same. Like I say a lot, both sides are at fault here.

CD community:
I understand that the 775 has not been working recently, and that we're all kinda frustrated about that. However, that doesn't mean that Banebots isn't a good provider. Our 2011 robot, while not too successful, was powered by 4 CIM motors for the drive and a BaneBots 775 for the arm, and not once to this day have we had a problem with it. I know other teams have had a multitude of problems with the 775, and while that is something to be spoken up about, it's not something to create a thread of complaints about. I, for one, wholeheartedly appreciate everything our friends at Banebots do for us. Companies like AndyMark, Banebots, etc. supply FIRST teams, and often work their hardest to ensure that we are getting the best of what they can offer. I'm no business owner, but I can tell you as a fact that companies like Banebots are no walk in the park to operate, especially with the high demands of build season. We are part of FIRST, and as stated before are very understanding people. And while that holds to be true, our reactions sure are not showing the gracious professionalism expected by us from not only our peers, but the world around us. If a problem like this shows up, we as FIRSTers have the duty to not only alert the manufacturer of the product with the problem, but to work with them to engineer a solution to it. We're here to change the world, not hold others back.

Banebots Company:
To start, I really appreciate all of the things you do for FIRST teams and the great products you have distributed for our use. I know the hardships it takes of running a business, and how you probably may feel by reading the comments on this thread. Like I said above, this is both side's problem. Banebots is a great company, and great companies need to know how to handle complaints, whether emailed directly to them, or posted on an online forum. I understand that what has been posted seems like people are "bashing" your RS 775 motor, however as a great company, you should know that this doesn't mean to get mad at the people, but to inquire as to how you can fix your product so the product is not only fixed, but better than it was before. FRC teams do the best in their power to make their robots feats of engineering unmatched by any other program available, and you should be honored to be part of the program. FIRST loves Banebots, and Banebots loves FIRST (Why else would you continue to sell us your products? ;)) You have always been an invaluable addition to every team's designs since you joined the FIRST family, and we all hope you stay with us to further explore the engineering experiences and opportunities to come.

Thank you to anyone who reads this, and I hope that both the CD community and the Banebots company will be able to engineer their way through this mess and confusion.

-Andrew

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We received those replacements today and I was told they checked out on arrival.

We plan on using 1 or 2 of the 775's for launching the ball to the hoop. :)

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

What if FIRST were to release the one rule that tells us which motors are legal and in what quantities well before kickoff (Game Hint)? It wouldn't give us any real advantage in knowing what to design for and all teams would be at an equal advantage. This would hopefully spread out the demand from a six week build season over a longer period of time and not stress our suppliers so much. We wouldn't run into as many problems with product shortages and lead times in the build season. This would be easier on teams and FIRST suppliers. Sure we could've purchased banebots motors and gearboxes before the season started, but we wouldn't KNOW that they would prove useful.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

With the openness of the current motor rules, they my as well update it for 2013 to any 500 size motor less than X amount of power.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

This. A thousand times this. I can't fix problems I don't know about.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

As Brad posted our motors arrived today and they tested out good.

We on 222 have been using Banebots for quite some time with little to no issues other then some poor design decisions leading to premature failure. We've used their 540s and 550s many times without a hint of trouble. Heck we even had no trouble with the 775s last season and that's what has lead us to decide on using them again. Banebots produces price friendly useful products. We are a low budget team and maybe that's why we aren't as quick to pass judgement. We don't expect to get a Ferrari When we are buying a Ford. Part of the engineering challenge for small teams like us is to take that Ford and use it for all it's worth.

Good luck to everyone and don't be afraid to call up Banebots if you have any issues. They were very responsive to our issues. Help them help us.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Karthik,
Four Megohms between case and either terminal is perfectly acceptable. The failure in last year's motors were zero ohms in the same test. The amount you measured (if in fact in the megohm range) could be moisture in the air or your finger tips. I would expect that the fault condition would be in the zero to 1000 ohm range. The fault, as documented by others, in 2011 motors occurred when one or more windings became shorted to the armature. To fully test motors, it requires that the tester connect one probe to a terminal (it does not matter which) and the other probe to the case while turning the motor several revolutions. If the meter suddenly drops to near zero, then that winding is defective. A digital meter set to the continuity beep position will beep on a bad motor when the short is reached. No beep and the motor is likely good.
On occasion, shorts also occurred with excess solder migrating into areas of the motor that bypassed internal insulation. The measurement/test would give the same results. I believe that some motors would not show the defect until run for a while. I would suggest that teams run the motors prior to any testing.
In response to Banebots, I agree it is unfair at this point to chastise an entire product line for the fault of one product. They are trying to correct a problem encountered by their customers. Give them a chance. As others have found there are other motors in their line that teams are using with confidence.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Al, this precise test was run, with the motor displaying failure characteristics. The 775's we received were definitely defective. Also, last year motors that initially tested as good, all failed after use in practice or competition.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

We had the same results. Even if we found a motor that checked out as "good", after some period of time running on the robot it would eventually short. Eventually every 775 we used became shorted. We went through about 6 or 7 of them I believe.


One other thing I want to add is in regards to what happened at the beginning of the issues with the 775 last year. While BaneBots is doing the right thing now and standing behind their product, this was not originally the case. If you go back in this thread to around posts #64 & 65, you will see testaments from teams here stating that BaneBots was not taking back their shorted 775 motors. Instead they were advising teams to do the "zap" method to fix them. While this method did usually give the motor a bit of a 2nd life, and they are now publicly stating they are taking them back and providing replacements, this was NOT the original tune sung when the problem first arose.

I am not trying to stir the pot or anything of the sort. Personally, I completely understand why some teams are choosing to not use BB components on their robots. We will be using components from BaneBots that are not 775s, and we certainly appreciate their support. However, our memory is not that short term, so we are cautious in our dealings with their components. We've had success with them in the past, and we've also had close to insurmountable failure.



-Brando

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Again,
I have to ask what resistance was measured in both cases, Karthik and Brando?

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Same here. Banebots cost us several matches in Florida last year. We re-engineered our entire drive train to eliminate Banebots for Philly and Champs and then did not have another electrical problem the remainder of the year.

My intent is not to bash Banebots or influence anyone. All I can say is that in a free market, I will not choose to use their products. We were not satisfied with the product, the delivery, or the 2011 response to an obvious defect.

The only way we will use another Banebots product is if we are forced to do so by the 2013 motor rules.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I haven't tested any this year, so my recollection is based on last years, but it ranged from dead shorts to 1M ohm resistance on failed motors.

Typically if we got into the 10k 0hm range, we started to have massive issues. If we were above 1M ohm, we would typically run a match with that motor. If it was below that threshold, we would continue zapping to get it higher.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

My apologies Al, just got a text from the person who did the test. Our failed motors were showing less than 2 ohms of resistance. The 4 M Ohms was what was seen last year after zapping the motors as per the suggestion of Banebots.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Thanks

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

The 775 was rock solid on our arm last year, we must have been lucky because we did test our motors a week ago off of our 2011 bot and they had case shorts, but we were not stopped in inspection and it didn't cause any electrical ghosts on our bot. If this one small problem was fixed, I would feel alot more confident because they really are good sized, powerful motors, and with the CIM-ulator, not a bad substitute for a CIM. But about half of the ten we ordered are case shorted, or the shafts are stiff. We still plan on using them though, we'll just have to try and isolate the mounting plates and bring a bunch of spares. And I'll know what to replace first if stuff starts to short or reboot.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Anyone look at the 775 motor on the AndyMark gearmotor?

We checked ours today - About 1-2 ohms from either terminal to the case. It flickers to infinity if I tap the end of the shaft slightly. I didn't test it while running, and I can't really spin the shaft because of the gearbox.

Good thing we ordered extra 550's and P60's.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I can see it now: 2013 rules: Teams are allowed to custom wind one motor of their own design and manufacturing methods. :D

(Not bashing on BaneBots, just a funny thought that popped in my mind).

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

I apologize in advance if this post comes across as accusatory, but this issue does have to be raised.

With reference to posts 228 and 229, as seen here:
And with reference to post 199: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...5&d=1326998264

However low the manufacturing defect rate is (and given Banebots' role as a dedicated FIRST supplier, there is no doubt that their testing is sufficiently thorough), many members have pointed out that the shipping process itself is accountable for a number of ensuing problems following product receipt. Therefore, it is likely that the fundamental problem at hand is not persay the manufacturing process, but rather the packing process which subsequently results in inevitable damage during the shipping process. If this is indeed the case, then any further attempts to improve control quality of the manufacturing process will likely prove futile.

The other problem that has been raised occasionally in this thread is the immense lead time on gearbox orders (we personally had to wait nearly a full 2 weeks for a shipment of P60s to arrive). As one of the few dedicated and valued FIRST suppliers, there is no doubt that a backlog would be inevitable, but this is the kind of problem that the company itself should acknowledge and address of its own volition.

That being said, the 775s (notwithstanding all defect receipts) have undoubtedly been an extraordinarily useful resource for those fortunate teams that have had success using them (as these teams have attested), to say nothing of the outstanding support for usage of the RS-550s (which, having had personal experience with, I can safely say were the only part of our robot that we never had problems with, for which I am eternally grateful). It is my hope that Banebots will remain a FIRST supplier and continue to support it and all the teams.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Thanks for dropping in to offer your comments. I think the core problem is that nobody has the full story—you hadn't been advised about the issues some teams were reporting, and teams weren't aware of your action to correct related product issues.

For example, I believe this is the first that we've heard about 100% inspection of the 18 V RS-775 motors. Perhaps teams would not have been so quick to decry the RS-775's apparent faults, if they'd known you were actively attempting to solve the problem. And while I grant it would have been a difficult decision to admit publicly on your product page that faults had been found, and that you were in the process of dealing with the issue, that acknowledgment would probably have changed the tone of this discussion. Without your input, the fair criticisms that have been raised weigh heavily against your products. Thanks to your explanation above, I'm sure that many of us are reassured that you're revisiting the RS-775 issues.

Now that you're in contact with us, the way forward is to bring us up to date, so that we can re-evaluate our impressions of your products and customer service. Would you care to summarize your testing procedures and results, to give us a better idea of the underlying issues? Also, could you confirm or deny the allegation that you were advising teams to burn out a winding on the motor as a partial fix for the electrical issue—and if so, could you characterize the decrease in performance, reliability and safety that might result?

FIRST teams are voracious consumers of information: we need information about motors and gearboxes that is timely and accurate. This need is driven by the compressed timeframe of the competition (just over 6 weeks of design and building), and by the fact that most teams have neither the stamina nor the impetus to seek this information in advance of the competition season. Additionally, since FIRST embargoes the rules until the kickoff date, any such efforts could easily be wasted, if FIRST elects to change the kit of parts or the robot specifications. The net effect is that around the first non-holiday Saturday of every year, two thousand teams will descend on your website looking for information. At this point, teams will be rushing to make design decisions, to place orders, and to build their robots. They definitely don't want to run the risk that what they buy is not fit for its intended purpose.

If FIRST hasn't informed you that this is the date by which everything needs to be in order, please take heed of that now. By participating as a FIRST supplier (especially one with an effective monopoly on certain parts), and whether you were explicitly informed of this or not, teams expect that someone—either you or FIRST—has determined that the motors you offer are of good quality. They're putting their faith in you, and linking their competitiveness to the products you provide.

Also, we don't mean to pin all of the blame on BaneBots, if in reality the fault lies with your supplier. In the absence of the manufacturer's datasheets and product reference, we have no way of knowing whether the motors they're providing to you consistently meet their OEM specifications. Supplying that datasheet to FIRST in advance of the FRC season, and posting it on your website would go a long way towards informing our opinions, and towards improving the FRC design process.

There's also another issue of which you may not be aware: FRC operates with strict technical specifications, particularly for motors.¹ By substituting motors of similar specifications, without advising FIRST and without providing new specification sheets (for comparison), you create a dilemma for teams and competition officials: how can we rely on your spec sheets if you haven't acknowledged an obvious substitution?²

As for the issues with shipping packages with insufficient packaging, I trust you now understand the issues and will solve this problem expeditiously.

In terms of the gearboxes, I recall that in the past, when defective gearboxes were discovered, you reacted by sending replacement parts. I have no quarrel with that kind of commendable customer service. I can only hope (for our sake and yours, because I know that must not have been cheap to correct) that in the future you'll be a bit more rigourous with your gearbox testing regimen.

(We can revisit the other criticisms of various gearboxes—especially lead time—later.)

Finally, though I don't presume to know the details of your business, I can point to another FIRST supplier, AndyMark, as an example of a business that the FIRST community generally trusts. AndyMark was founded by longtime FIRST participants, so already they have an advantage—but their real strength is in their quick response to product questions and concerns, and their general willingness to offer satisfaction, even when they're not strictly at fault. (I hope I'm not putting them on too high a pedestal, but that has been my experience with them in the past.)

If people were writing baseless libel, then it would definitely reflect poorly upon this forum, and FIRST. But I don't think that's the case. While frustration is evident, the criticisms have not been exaggerated, nor have the comments been defamatory. Indeed, the exchange of experiences relating to a product or service is a fundamental feature of a free market system—people need to be able to meaningfully evaluate and compare goods in order to make economically rational choices.

If there's something you believe to be false, by all means, point it out and offer your corrections.

¹ In contrast to other motors, which are permitted on the basis of part number only, FIRST specifies "the BaneBots motors provided in the KOP". This potentially precludes your substitutions (without a rule change). I'm not FIRST, so I don't know if this was intentional—but I suspect that it was to avoid confusion with other similar can motors you've offered previously or subsequently.
² This happened in 2009. (More details are available if you desire them.)

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Everyone,
I think it is important to state the effect of shorted motors on FRC robots. In the event of a shorted winding to the armature, there is likely to be no significant degradation of performance in our applications. Only quality control style testing would indicate a drop off in speed or power and then only when measured using the type of instruments used in this testing. Where problems will arise on an FRC robot is when wiring errors occur on the robot such that an additional electrical path is established through both the shorted motor and the other fault. If this second path is established through the Crio chassis which is electrically tied to the negative terminal of the battery, the Crio +24 volt power supply will be compromised and that will result in Crio reboot. If the second path should be through a second motor, a variety of faults could occur. While none have been documented, these could be anything from tripped breakers to power supply fluctuations to electrical component failures. We all know that a simple test for frame continuity may not show a defect until the motor is rotated to where the short is actually connected to a brush within the motor. A single shorted motor on a properly constructed FRC robot should not (in and of itself) cause any additional failures. In the event of a short as witnessed in 2011, the frame of the robot would be alternately switched to the negative lead of the battery or the positive lead of the battery dependent on the motor direction command of the controller. As inspectors we are very concerned about frame shorts of any kind for two significant reasons. One occurs when two faulty robots become engaged and there exists two paths through frame and other electrical wiring that may cause significant damage to electrical components or sparks. The second is our desire to insure every team plays every match and is able to be competitive at every event they attend.
When you are building your robot please keep in mind that the Crio must be electrically isolated from the frame and that all electrical wiring be insulated. When an inspector points to something during the inspection process, he/she is trying to help you. He/she wants you to perform at your best. Good Luck.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

If you never respond to our emails, how can you expect to get feedback from customers???

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Apparently they do not want to receive emails. See attachments.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Yes, but on the "Contact Us" page of their website, it has fields to send them an email inquiry.

Re: Banebots RS-775 Case Short
 

Yes I know. My point was a bit too subtle I guess.