Chief Delphi - Building a claw post-ship

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Re: Building a claw post-ship

Last year the team I mentor brought in the lifting sub-system for the robot at the Hawaii regional and another team built a lifting system before their first regional.

Last year we had ~60 lbs we could keep from shipping, I do not see a difference from last year to this year for the with-holding allowance except for the amount.

I see a claw upgrade, not as a subsystem upgrade, but a host-bot upgrade.

<R24> During the period between ship date and the competitions, all teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, and develop software for their ROBOT at their home facility. Teams may continue development of any items retained under the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE during this period, and then bring them to the competition events

<R33> Teams may bring a maximum of 30 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and UPGRADE PARTS, plus all WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE items) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT at the competition site. All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition shall arrive at the competition venue packed in the shipping crate or lockout bag with the ROBOT

emphasis mine*

Nowhere does it say that you need to be upgrading a particular subsystem such as a claw.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 1022483)

Please note: This is a reference to items fabricated by your team prior to ship. While you may prototype and plan items for use on your robot, fabrication may take place only at events after the ship date. If in doubt, please ask the Q&A or First for verification.

Could you possibly be looking at this?

"<R25> While at competitions, teams may repair, modify or upgrade their competition ROBOT. To support this, teams may bring SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and COTS items to the competitions (within the limits specified in Rule <R33>). Work can only be done on-site in the pits or at any facility made available to all teams at the event (e.g., in a team’s repair trailer or a local team’s shop offered to all teams to use). Fabrication may be done when the pit area is open for normal operations during the period starting with the opening of the pit area on the first day of the competition event and ending at 4:00PM on last day of the event. All work must be stopped when the pit area closes each evening. Parts shall not be removed from the competition site and retained overnight after the pit area closes....."

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Eric,
Which note are referring to? The sentence immediately following R24 is cut and paste from the manual. The 'please note' is mine. when the manual speaks to upgrade parts I believe it is referring to your decision to beef up a part on a mechanism you designed and built prior to ship but now have second thoughts about.
This also follows R24...
The primary intent of this rule is to allow teams to withhold the ROBOT control system, the OPERATOR CONSOLE, and selected relevant subsystems and access them after the shipping deadline. This will allow teams to have the maximum time possible prior to each competition event to develop and complete the software for their ROBOT while maximizing the potential capabilities provided by the control system.

Emphasis mine.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawiian Cadder (Post 1022501)

i don't believe that a whole arm is an upgrade so much as an addition. i think what they mean by additional functionality would be
a rolling claw vs a clamping claw, or shifters vs single speeds, not a manipulator vs nothing.

As someone who is actually withholding my entire arm (since I am lazy and don't want to build yet another arm) I can safely say that this behavior has been the norm for years and is in no way un-gp or "questionable". If you don't like it fine, doesn't mean you have the right to say others can't do it.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz (Post 1022624)

From your post:

Quote:

Please note: This is a reference to items fabricated by your team prior to ship. While you may prototype and plan items for use on your robot, fabrication may take place only at events after the ship date. If in doubt, please ask the Q&A or First for verification.

I don't see anything in the manual to support the second bolded line (<R24> specifies that a team's home facility may be used to build upgrade, spare, and replacement parts).

According to the definition of Upgrade Parts, it says COTS or Fabricated Component or Mechanism that is used to improve/add functionality, in effect. It does not say, change how part works. It does not say, you have to have had that part built/on the robot before ship. It says, add or improve functionality.

As such, anything saying "it has to have been on the robot before ship" or "the robot has to have similar functionality already" goes against the Manual's wording. I agree that the intent is to upgrade individual parts--but there is nothing to prevent an entire arm that never saw the robot before ship from coming in as part of the Withholding Allowance or as COTS parts or both and being bolted together at the event. I would, however, apply the general Manual caution against "lawyering" the rules to allow/disallow bringing in any given item.

<R25> refers to at-event work, not Withholding Allowance work.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Eric,
I am reading R23 and R24 together.
Please also read the blue highlight under UPGRADE PARTS for an explanation.
I do not believe it is the intent of the GDC to allow you to continue with building robot subsystems and bring these completed subsystems to a competition if they are less than 30 lbs.
I do believe that the GDC has agreed that a team may design and redesign anything for the robot after ship. A team may also build one of these designs between ship and events. The team may not bring that system to a competition in an assembled form. They may bring parts and materials that can be assembled at the event. In my mind, that is an attempt to give teams the same advantage for building.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

If it has the ability to increase robot performance without the risk of compromising the current solution. DO IT!

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Last year our team withheld our entire kicker and it turned out to be one of the best decision we made, not that we had much choice since it barely worked on ship day. All I have to say is make sure you have a plan set in stone for when you get to your regional, know exactly how and when you are going to put it together before you get there. We luckily knew exactly what we were going to do and were fairly successful with our new kicker.

I would also suggest keeping your current design in working order in case things don't work out.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

It is not the intent of the GDC. I agree with you on that, Al.

Quote:

UPGRADE PARTS - a COMPONENT or MECHANISM intended to provide additional functionality not currently available on the ROBOT. UPGRADE PARTS may be COTS items or custom FABRICATED ITEMS, and may either add to or replace existing functionality. Example: A HOSTBOT is designed with a c-channel frame. The system works well, but can be misshapen if hit aggressively. The team adds two more pieces of c-channel to brace the frame and prevent this problem. The c-channel is identical to that already on the HOSTBOT. The new pieces of c-channel would be considered UPGRADE PARTS even though they are the same as the ones already in place, as they alter the functionality of the HOSTBOT and provide new capability.

So, I can add functionality, or replace it, or otherwise make it better.

Quote:

<R23> During the BUILD SEASON, teams are to design and fabricate all the COMPONENTS and MECHANISMS required to complete their ROBOT. When the ROBOT shipment deadline arrives, all work on the ROBOT must cease and the ROBOT must be placed in a “hands-off” condition. The entire ROBOT (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT) must be crated or bagged (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in the FRC Administrative Manual, Section 5 (with the exception of the items covered by the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE). Teams are encouraged to use all the materials, sources and resources available to them that are in compliance with the rules of the 2011 FRC during the BUILD SEASON. There is no limit to the amount of time that may be put into this effort during the BUILD SEASON, other than via the realities of the calendar.

Stop work on the robot and ship it at or before the deadline; you have all the calendar time in the build season. Design and fabricate everything.

Quote:

<R24> During the period between ship date and the competitions, all teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT, and UPGRADE PARTS, and develop software for their ROBOT at their home facility.
Teams may continue development of any items retained under the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE during this period, and then bring them to the competition events. The primary intent of this rule is to allow teams to withhold the ROBOT control system, the OPERATOR CONSOLE, and selected relevant subsystems and access them after the shipping deadline. This will allow teams to have the maximum time possible prior to each competition event to develop and complete the software for their ROBOT while maximizing the potential capabilities provided by the control system.

Between ship/bag and competition, I can build stuff for the robot--spare, replacement, upgrade--without limitation, but I have to bring it in in compliance with <R33>.

The intent is, don't bring in brand-new stuff (arm, deployment system, etc.) that was built after ship. The problem is, it is not prohibited to do so. So, if I were to build a brand-new, not-designed-during-build arm, claw, deployment system, electronics box, or other similar item, that fit into the <R33> allowance, but was built after ship, I can't be stopped under the current version of the Manual, unless it's over the weight of the allowance (and I can probably take it apart to get into that if I need to). Intent of the GDC can't stop anything unless it's in the Manual as a rule, and while it is expressed, it isn't a rule.

I think we're starting to get over into something like the "What is a robot" debate from 2008, so I'll stop there, with the note that I would expect a slightly clearer "intent note" in the Manual next year.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

I would like one of the previous posters to ask this on the Q&A. It will make someone's life simpler.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1022944)

The intent is, don't bring in brand-new stuff (arm, deployment system, etc.) that was built after ship.

And what part of the manual makes that clear to you at all? This exact practice has been done for years and the GDC made no further effort to stop it this year than before. If that's really their intent, I wouldn't leave the same giant holes in the manual that "let" them happen last year.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1023010)

The blue boxes, particularly the one after <R24>. Also what Al is saying he's getting from the Manual is that that, or something similar is their intent.

It may be that it's similar to the "what is a robot" debate that we had in 2008: the definition of "Robot" had slipped into such a state that it could be interpreted in a number of ways, which allowed for a very innovative robot to be made illegal by a convoluted process. They may have the intent, but haven't noticed that it's possible to legally get around it. They may also not wish to change it, leaving that to the team's best judgment. If that is the case, they may wish to clarify that in this year's Q&A, leaving it open next year.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Interesting debate, with valid points on both sides.
I've posted this to FIRST Q&A, so hopefully, we will know a definite answer soon enough.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

The OP says the arm already has a hook, and since a claw is merely an upgraded hook, it would follow that the claw is an upgraded part since it adds functionality to the robot. If, however, the robot were shipped sans hook, I could see a potential problem.

Re: Building a claw post-ship

Quote:

Originally Posted by 548swimmer (Post 1023196)

and since a claw is merely an upgraded hook, it would follow that the claw is an upgraded part

Can you look an inspector in the eye and say that without laughing?