Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

As I look at posted robot pictures, I begin to worry about robot longevity this year. The parts provided in the KOP, if used as-is, will produce a ~16 FPS robot. I see that most teams are gearing for around that same speed, either using shifting transmissions or the KOP parts. In the past, kit-bots, and most non kit bots have been geared for between 9 and 12 fps. In other words the robots will be very fast this year.

Defense near the home zone will be dangerous due to team update #6, so expect VIGOROUS defense around midfield.

Team update #9 adds:Most of the robot pictures I have seen posted show mechanisms outside the frame perimeter. By the end of any given regional, I would not be surprised to see a significant proportion of those robots with no usable manipulator.

Team updtae #9 also added:This is one of the reasons our team probably will not attempt to pick up a tube from the floor. As it now stands, no part of our robot ever extends outside the frame perimeter. (except during end-game)

In the finals, it may turn out that the last robot still working is the winner.

I'm not Car Nack, but I am hereby predicting mayhem.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

If the robot weighs 120lbs, even with 4 CIMs it likely won't have nearly enough room to accelerate to anything approaching that speed.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

This is another good reason to have a detachable manipulator and a spare. It won't help you for the match it gets broken, but hopefully you will be in better shape for the next match.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

We know our manipulator is going to get the s!@# kicked out of it so I think we are using some of our 30 lbs with 4 extra. I know as soon as the doors open our manipulator people will get to building as many extra as they can.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

teams aquire this speed relatively easily and quickly, we did this with the additional weight of the bumpers and minibot. we did this speed with a 150 lb robot in like week 2 in less than 20 feet...

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Thanks this is interesting.
The reasons you lay out here is why our students designed a tube pickup tool that when the robot travels the tube is inside the bumper zone. May help keep the bot together. That and my annoying speeches about make it TOUGH.
Tough is something that the team has started focusing on in the last few years, because mentor Andy won't shut-up about it.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

The field is ~50 feet long. With a two-speed transmission, coming from the feeder station with a full head of steam, I expect a well made robot to be approaching that speed by midfield. One strategy to avoid defense is speed. if a robot comes screaming out of its lane, heading towards the home zone at ~16 FPS, any robot that gets in the way does so at its own peril. And don't assume 120 LB.s The robot weighs in at 120, the battery 10, the bumpers another 20, and up to 15 for the minibot gives a max weight of 165 Lb. or 75 Kg. At 15 FPS (4.6 M/s), you will have 616 ft-lb (835 N-M) of energy, all dissipated in milliseconds. Even if you don't have anything outside your frame perimeter, that is a lot of energy to absorb without damage.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Absolutely, robots with shifters can certainly reach 15-16 FPS. My point was that the KOP bot will not if it weighs anywhere near 120 without battery bumpers and minibot.

If I did the math right the KOP setup (at 148lbs total) will take over 100 ft. to accelerate to top speed. Adding an additional pair of CIMs still puts it at over 60ft. to reach its top speed.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

"Back in the day, we didn't have those weenie bumpers!" :D

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Yea.... When Robots were Robots. Metal against Metal. Puts a big smile on my face also :D:D

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Regarding picking up from the floor:

Maybe in midfield it's a risky proposition, but picking up tubes in your scoring zone or human player lanes seems like a no brainer to me. You're protected from being touched in those areas.

-Brando

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

There will be some big hits, that's for sure. We will be bringing many spare manipulators to competition for this reason. We will also be devoting a large share of time this week and with our practice bot to train the operator to get the manipulator out of the way as quickly as possible.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

For those robots with a long arm, I wonder how it will work driving around with the arm sticking almost straight up? There's the fun thing about the CG being relatively high, and the robot wanting to fall over during sudden maneuvers...and you have to watch out for minibot towers...and other robots with stuff sticking out up high. Especially if you're possessing a game piece.

I'm thinking our decision to use mostly all locally available materials, and a few bolts and rivets to hold it all together, might be a good decision.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

This is an interesting question.

Logo-motion is the First game since 2008 where Teams are pretty much allowed to expand beyond the bumper zone without restrictions other than a maximum expansion Distance. I would venture to say that the majority of teams are compromised of students that only have experience with 2009 and on (those who don't would've had to have been Freshmen in HS in 2008) and then there are hundreds of teams that have been born since 2008. It'll be interesting to see how well these teams build robots and if they understand the abuse that a mechanism will take if it leaves the bumper zone.

Well-Structured and mentored Veteran teams, I'm sure, will have few issues with machine robustness as many of them existed in the "Pre-Bumper Era" and should remember how to build a robot to take abuse. Personally, 816's robot was designed in such a way that all mechanisms that leave the bumper zone are protected while not in the safe zones, and the few other Veteran Machines I've seen thus far seem to be built with the same idea in mind.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I did a quick spreadsheet to estimate (and making some known erroneous assumptions, but close) I estimate that a kitbot with roughtop wheels at 150 lb.s can hit 15 FPS in less than 20 ft, and about 1/2 second.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I think the biggest factor in this year game is a good fast strong drive base that will be able to push and shove other robots all it want's to. If robots are going to be getting up to 16fps at mid-field, your robot needs to be able to sustain it self against these big hits, also remember that Woodie and Dave told us this was going to happen.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Disregard sleep, acquire many replacement components.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

From zero to 20 feet in 1/2 second???

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

wow, my 55 chevy has a pretty powerful engine, and takes 1.7 seconds to go 60 feet from a standing start.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

But it also weighs 3k pounds :rolleyes:

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Honestly, I have no idea why the kitbot this year was designed the way it was. Smart people were behind it so I'm hesitant to criticize it but it seems like teams that build it will have a very hard time driving this year. Overall, that transmission with 8" wheels is asking for trouble.

I'm predicting many between-regional arm rebuilds to remove floor loaders, sadly.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I wish! it's almost 4k with me in it

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I don't see it being much worse than 2007 really. That year, most teams had NO BUMPERS, and were actively fighting over tube placement midfield. There will always be "high speed impacts" and contact with manipulators, but I just don't see more damage than has been done in previous years.

EDIT: As a note, in 2007 we DID have a complete second arm for replacement, and had a couple extra claws for spares. We only had to use one at our regional. They WILL take a beating.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I agree with the concern but not the conclusion. There will be floor loaders. Some will raise them while traveling AND some teams (like ours) will train drivers to drive in reverse as fast as forward so the impact is not with the loader. You can always turn safely in your zone.

I hope everyone but us removes their floor loader, it'll make us that much more attractive for picking.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

if everyone else did remove theirs, you'd probably be doing the picking

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I must agree with Matt C. In 2007 teams that were successful at putting up tubes quickly became targets. There was a ton of full on collisions. As Matt C also points out this is the year before mandatory bumpers.

With this in mind teams must build objects i.e manipulators that will extend outside the bumper zone to "take/absorb/withstand/(insert adj.)" high speed collisions.

Hint: Hopefully our video from last night at 816's home field. THANKS AGAIN 816. Will be up shortly I hope. Shows two but equal effective ways to build manipulators to withstand collisions.

In our case 272 our manipulator can move "freely" along the horizontal so blows are disapated. 816 just built yet another engineering marvel and its built like a brick you know what and as some of our collisions last night proved. 816 and 272 can withstand a hit or two for sure

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I think our drive team is getting sick of me telling them to pull the collector up. :)

We have a lift and collector that are designed so we only have to leave the bumper perimeter to get a tube. Everything else happens while are collector is nice and safe inside the confines of our bumper perimeter. We are working on building some defenses for our lift so that we can prevent other robots (with out such designs) from getting inside our bumper perimeter and messing anything up.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Smashed up robots??? I may be able to convince my finance's father to come watch...

Overall I do not believe this year will be a war of attrition. Some regionals may have characteristics of such a game, yet regionals where teams have had practice beforehand will probably see the game played as intended (less tears over broken manipulators). I think we'll see some warped frames or popped welds, yet the game is still playable depending on the severity of damage.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Due to poor machining, we have spares for most parts on our manipulator.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Excellent thread - too bad this subject wasn't highlighted 4 weeks ago.

Our gripper only extends outside the bumper perimeter momentarily and folds back for transport. We have shear pins, knockouts, and crumple zones to (hopefully) protect critical & hard-to-replace components. We will bring spares & raw materials as well.

Floor pickup offers such a tactical and strategic advantage that it is worth the risk. Most floor pickups will be within our protected lanes or scoring zones. Picking up dropped or thrown tubes on the open field is another story. If you can do it quickly and get away with it - and your opponents can't - you can own the rack.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

If you can get an alliance partner to haul tubes over to your scoring, floor picking up robot, then you might be able to avoid the manipulator collision damage problem somewhat.

We had a long arm on our 2007 robot and only suffered significant damage to the manipulator once, and that was to our admittedly weak wrist hinge.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

count me in this camp!!

Part of the process is designing a robust robot...always has been. First seemed to work quite successfully without bumpers for many years...I would personally love to see it go back (or at least give teams the option of with or without)

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

The ideas in this thread are the exact ideas that lead us to build a trooper that will only be extended out for the 1 second or so that were actually acquiring a tube. After that its well inside the frame perimeter as is the tube. Should be fun seeing who built anticipating the large impacts.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

This used to be such a HUGE part of FIRST back before bumpers. It's been discussed a hundred times already, but the "robustness" category has slipped further and further down the priority list for many teams because of the addition of bumpers.

Obviously this isn't a terrible thing, its just funny how we're sitting here discussing today how ground loading isn't smart because your appendage might get hit (most likely by a bumper). Back in the day, you kinda had to assume everything you built would be whacked, hooked, grabbed or whatever else it may be!

-Brando

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

2008 was a war of attrition for both the robots and the field.
By the end of the off seasons the field was barely able to hold together after so many competitions with robots slamming full speed into the sides so hard.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I suspect that BB (before bumpers) taught people basic robustness practices much more quickly than our somewhat toned-down game we have now.

Every year I see dozens of robots that make me shake my head. No strain relief on the wires (and there should be strain relief of some sort on EVERY wire). Sensors and other fragile components out where they can be easily ripped off or destroyed. Uncovered motor tabs on FP's.

For instance, this year, you already know you're going to see dozens of banebots motors on the arms with their motor tabs exposed for all the word to bash at (and short out). Likewise with the multitude of forklift style bots, you're going to see a ton of loose wire flying about just asking to get yanked.

That still doesn't make me want to return to the no-bumper bots of yesteryear though.

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I belive the addition of bumpers has nothing to do with protecting robots. It has more to do with protecting the field from the robots. Certain areas of every field take a lot of damage from robots. In 2008 there were some field parts that had to be re-welded repeatedly.

Not that I personally would mind going back to metal on metal

ChrisH

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

That's what pipe benders are for ;)

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

Spare parts are your friend -- but so is a robot designed to tuck in unless it doesn't have to!

Re: Will this year's game be a war of attrition?
 

I'm scared now!

Last week we mounted our forklift style lifter and arm to our chassis to test stability. But mech team was still around the robot discussing were to put the winch for our lifter(when we "installed" it, it could not move up or down) when all of a sudden the robot started to spin around very quickly! And the fully extended fiberglass arm acted like a giant lever against my dads leg. Which put alot of torquing force on our lift (made of 80-20) after the robot was disabled we found that our 1/8 aluminum plated holding the arm to the lift bend like a paper clip, and the standard 80-20 braces holding the two sides of the elevator sheared in half! So we had to fabricate new bearing plates out of lexan (our theory is aluminum and lexan both bend but lexan bends back) and super strong new cross braces on our lift.

Honestly I'm glad this happened when it did as oppose to at GSR because we would not have been able to fix it! I am also concerned about the stability of our chassis because it is made of the same material as our lift was when it broke.


*No one was hurt*
*And yes, we learned to stay away from the robot when its live*