Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Will we see a sub 1 sec mini bot?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

At Suffield Shakedown, team 175 deployed in about 8-10 seconds. I was told by a referee that a robot has 10 seconds to climb & activate the tower. If it deployes at the 1 second mark, it still has 10 seconds to climb & activate. There is a 10 second delay built into the system to accommodate this.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I think the OP was referring to a minibot that climbs in under one second.

I think one second is a hard maximum.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

1 second minibot? Maybe
1 second deploy+climb? Not a chance.

I'm of the opinion that the minibot race will be won and lost by the deployment system, much more than the minibot itself.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I would have to agree with you.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I disagree. Time of "deployment" doesn't really matter in the sense most people are thinking. You can extend your robot to the end of your arm or platform before the 10 seconds, as long as you're away from the base of the tower. At 10.00, you just drive into the tower with your already extended minibot and call it a day. Deployment time doesn't really come into play there.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Wait, run that by me one more time.

If I am hearing you right, you believe deployment time will be almost instant if it is already extended before the 10 seconds. Then Right at the 10 second mark the robot drives the minibot to the pole, then the minibot climbs up the pole.

Is this correct?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

As per section 1 of the Game Manual:

"DEPLOYMENT starts when the MINIBOT breaks the vertical projection of the TOWER BASE circumference."

So even if the minibot was extended prior to the end game as soon as it crosses the vertical projection of the Tower Base circumference it is said to be in deployment.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Yes.

For all I care, deployment could take a minute and a half. It's net effect on the minibot race time would be zero if the deployment mechanism is designed such that an extended minibot could just be driven over the base and onto the pole at the 10 second mark.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

If that's your plan, be ready for the opponent robots to absolutely crush you at 12 seconds. One little push and you lose your alignment. I have a feeling that any good deployment system will need to have error correction built in to be effective at competition.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Regardless of what your mechanism is, you cannot put the minibot within the base perimeter projection until 10 seconds hits. Therefore, the "Deployment time" as being discussed here is equivalent to the discrete amount of time for DEPLOYMENT as defined in the manual: the time it takes from when your minibot breaks that projection, to when it starts to climb the pole and leaves contact with the hostbot. This is a non-trivial amount of time if you are talking about the total time it takes from the 10 second mark to when the tower is triggered.

If you have a minibot which can climb the pole in 1 second, but it takes 0.5 seconds for the hostbot to get the minibot from the edge of the tower base to the pole, you still don't hit that tower until 8.5 seconds left in the match at best. You can have all sorts of mechanisms that extend and latch or do whatever to prepare for the endgame before 10 seconds, but no one's minibot is going to get around the time it takes to travel those 15 inches to the pole from the edge of the tower base. If you have a super fast minibot, you best have a super fast way to get it to the pole or you won't beat the slightly slower minibot with the faster deployment.

Will we see minibots that take a second or less to get to the top of the pole? Maybe. Will we see minibots that trigger their tower before 9 seconds left in the match? Very very slim to impossible.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Not if you are nested in your lane.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Driving into the tower can still take time. Lining up is also an issue.

Our team can deploy in a little less than .7 seconds, and also has some things to line the robot up so it will hit every time. Our minibot is currently a little less than 3 seconds (I think) but they're building a custom chassis so it'll speed up at least a little bot (pun intended). We're using magnets to hold on.

And to the thread title, no, I don't think we'll see a sub 1 second minibot, never mind the deployer. Seriously, 10 fps?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

A one second Deploy and Climb.......If it happens I shall bow down before that team and grovel and ask how they tolerate us mear mortals.....

But seriously. I think a whole bunch of teams have built minibots that climb in the sub 2.5-2.75 range. We even seen evidence of a few that are at just around a second.

The key as many of you have pointed out is the deployment time and/or method. It is quite difficult in the heat of the game to hit a 1 3/4 OD pipe from about what 40 ft. I have seen some teams with some manual line up devices that seem to work really well. I am also sure some teams ours included will use sensors and some nice programming to take the human factor out and let the robot line itself up manually. We will see I am very intrested to see who can show us on a consistent basis their ability to deploy and climb each round.

I trully believe if you can deploy/climb accuratly each round and even if it takes say 7 seconds you will be quite attractive at least for the first few weeks. But I guess we will all see sooner then later.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Now, how does a team manage to get around 1-2 seconds? We all have the same motors... Or do they not use motors at all?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Being that we all have the same maximum power output (motors).
-Eliminate wasted power (friction, ect.)
-Decrease the amount of work that needs to get done (weight)


As per the topic:
I think it could happen. I haven't run any numbers to see if the motors + battery could make a mini-bot go up in sub 1 second in ideal conditions. My gut ways it could. As per the deployment, it can be done quick, say .25-.5 seconds.

So, by one of the best teams in the world, I think it can happen once or twice. 1.5 seconds seems much more obtainable for the powerhouses, with 2-3 seconds being fairly "norm" for all highly ranked (top 20) in each division this year at championships.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Gearing, weight, and size of wheels. Our current minibot is going up in 2.6 seconds. We are going to put on smaller wheels and re-cnc the plates to make them smaller and lighter. http://www.youtube.com/user/frc3467?.../0/fkd1pkthJZY

I think we will see a 1 sec or close to minibot.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Minibot speed is all about getting the gearing and traction right.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Oh, the wheels are directly attached to the motor shaft... So that is not a good idea?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

We geared ours for a 3 to 1 ratio. Some teams have opted for just direct drive to eliminate parts to make it lighter.

It is all about finding a balance!

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Not necessarily. That could be fixed as part of your design.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Sub 1 second? No.

I do however think that as the season goes on more and more teams will see "how its done" with the minibot then the game will undergo a shift from a Minibot heavy game in the first three weeks to a tube heavy game at championship as the minibots become more even.

Einstein will be a battle of who can put up the tubes and who can hit the button the fastest to deploy their minibots.

Haven't seen 469 yet though.........

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

We've been trying to improve our minibot (which won top honors at the RaChaCha Rally in the Minibot Race), but have had a very hard time pushing under the 2.5 second climb + deploy mark...

Everything we have tried to get it to go faster hasn't had the torque to climb, and perhaps there is something we are missing. It wouldn't surprise me!

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I am confident we will see a minibot get to the top in less than 1.4 seconds. Yes, 1.4 seconds including deployment.

I will bet a Mountain Dew on it. Any takers?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I have to agree with you Paul. I think including deployment you will see the 1.2 sec mark pushed.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

It's an estimate from youtube quality video, but 118's minibot appears to climb in very nearly 1 second exactly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lRtC8wBUa0

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I'll bet a Mountain Dew that no minibot will hit the top of the tower at the 8.6 second mark in a match (1.4 seconds from 10.0).

That said, I agree with the "spirit" of the bet and believe 1.3 and 1.2 second minibots will happen.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I will up Pauls bet for you if the 1.4 sec mark is not hit i will buy you a throwback Mountain Dew.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

If you'll be at FLR, I'll take that bet, with the added rule that it is a minibot from a team other than 217 and at FLR :p

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

That's a sucker bet...I'm guessing that Paul has a very good reason to believe that 1.4 sec is obtainable. Say, oh...I don't know, maybe he's seen his own robot do it???

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I fully agree with you Paul. We will see sub 1.4 including deployment, and it will be awesome!

-Brando

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I'd happily trade a Mountain Dew to see that! :)

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I'll see your Mountain Dew, and raise you a Cherry Pepsi.

I think there will be several teams capable of doing this.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

But will it count? From the Q&A:
---------------------------
1) There is no synchronization between the timer on the field and the robot code. The FMS-to-DS control packets do not include match time. While a team could start their own timer running on the robot when they receive the indication for Teleop start, there is no guarantee that their timer will be synced with the FMS server.

2) Deployment time will be judged based on observations in each MATCH, not on ROBOT design or programming.
--------------------------

It sounds like there will be a ref watching your minibot to ensure that you don't deploy before the 10 second mark. If you wait for a field signal to start deployment you will have a reaction time in that 1.4 seconds. If you try to anticipate you run the risk of getting called for early deployment. If you depend on elapsed time you will need to build in some delay so the ref can be sure you weren't early.

I wouldn't want to be a ref this year. There are too many game deciding calls to be made.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I believe that a sub 1 second mini bot deployment and climb is possible and will be seen. I'll not say why.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Playing a role in the developement on buzz's mini-bot i must say that deployment is by far the hardest part, but yet the most important, if you think about it the mini-bot actually has a 20 sec time period to climb the pole in, 10 secs at the end of regulation match then 10 secs beyond that.

The versatility of a deployment mechanism is what will make or break the mini-bot, it may climb it in one second however if it's not at the pole it isn't going anywhere. Reliability will be a key factor.

A 1 sec mini-bot will be done is my guess.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

There is no time sync, but there is a indicator that your machine can pay attention to. Use the lights at the base of the tower. The robot's reaction speed can quite possibly be faster than a driver's reflexes.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Agreed.

The deployment is the key to having a successful minibot. After many posts and speculation, I'm still undecided on whether or not we'll see one. . . until championships. It'll take some refining and a hard study on balance but it is hypothetically obtainable (if not already).

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Why not drive, line up and contact the tower before 10 seconds? Only the minibot can't cross the line before endgame, the hostbot has no such restriction.
I've seen it in 1/5 that time. maxmax161 even posted a video of it.
Not from me :yikes:

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Hey don i know i should know the answer to this but i don't. I am being told you cant not break the plain of the barrel even with the large robot.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

How has no-one noticed this blatant hint?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Because at this point, it doesn't matter.
If they show what their minibot can do now or they wait until their competition - the minibot will either do it or it won't.

Teasers are tiring.

Jane

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Shawn,

Your hostbot may cross the vertical plane of your alliance tower base any time leading up to and including the endgame...your hostbot can even touch the pole per G43...Robots and minibots may push or react against any elements of the arena provided there is no damage or disruption of the arena elements. With the exception of the tower during the endgame and while deploying a minibot, robots may not grab, grasp, grapple or attach to any arena structure".
Hope this helps!

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

thanks

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Now, if a team had a minibot that was an "arrow"... I see a sub .5 sec bot

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

That arrow better have a tetrix motor propelling its vertical motion.. as well as a battery. :]

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I predict that all of the fastest minibots will mount their wheels directly on the motor shafts. Our minibot team identified this as a necessity very early. Unfortunately we didn't have the fabrication abilities or man-hours to make it happen on our minibot.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

It would have been a more interesting engineering challenge if that were true. Team 1827 will contend that minibot speed is actually all about eliminating every gram that isn't mandated by the rules.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

We've got a solid 2.5-second minibot without doing that, but every attempt we have made to do a direct-mount has resulted in a bot that does not have the torque to climb.

I know it's possible because I've seen it done, we just can't seem to figure out how to do it! (Though we'll be spending a long Saturday tomorrow trying more ideas... We'd be working today if not for the Snowpocalypse.)

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

This is true, to a point. Once every gram is eliminated, how do you make it faster? If you have a few weeks until your competition, I'd suggest exploring how (subject to your capabilities and resources).

I may investigate a direct-drive option this weekend; though we also need to do a better "V" for the deployment mechanism.

As for minibot that takes less than 1 second to go > 7.5 feet? Well, I've had a bit of foot-in-mouth about minibots this season so I won't really comment on it.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Alan is absolutely correct. You will understand it when you get there. This isn't a meant to be insulting, just noting that it takes a lot of experimentation or very thorough design to not "luck" into a fast minibot.

Yes, weight is important, but so is frictions, traction (yes different), load distribution, and most important a matched gearing to the above parameters. When your gearing matches those, you get a very fast (maybe not 1 second, but fast none the less). We had 2 mini-bots of similar design, similar gearing, but one was significantly faster. Then we found and eliminated some scrub, and the slower one was significantly faster than the original fast one. After that, we got them both within 10% of each other with regards to run to run variability.

As JVN points out, iteration is often the key to incremental improvement. We tried approximately 5 "styles" of minibots before settling on an architecture that we liked. We have since gone through 7 different minibot chassis for this particular "style" of minibot. For those of you counting at home, that is around 12 minibots, and I hope to continue as i would like to revisit a completely different "style" that I am seeing get good results. It didn't have good results in Week 5, so we put it on the shelf to be revisited at a later date.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Team 190 has quite the out of box approach to accomplishing the minibot task.
I recommend that come the WPI regional, watch match videos just to see it.

I am sworn to secrecy, but I will tell you this much, it's pretty brilliant.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

oops

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

The trick isn't the motor, but what you use for traction.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

There are teams out there that have to be working meticulously on this right now. They aren't going to give up because of it. Trust me, there will be a sub 1 second minibot.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

No way. Not including deployment.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I didn't add deployment factor to the post did I. I'm strictly just talking about the minibot. Quickest minibot plus deployment will be around 1.75 seconds. Maybe not, if so, prove me wrong.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

They will.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

That would be tricky, since clipping to the pole requires turning a horizontal force to a vertical force, and you can't leave too early after clipping because the minibot would bounce and slide around.

Our team bounced around an idea about a modified clay-pigeon launcher type thing that slams the robot onto the pole (lightly), but would deploy extremely fast.

We haven't had time, money, or enough of a workforce to build it or the minibot, so if anyone wants to use the idea, feel free.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Actually it doesn't....

Unfortunately I can't say more.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I dont know if team 118 has said anything so i wont spoil it. But if you want to check it out go onto youtube and search team 118, it should be the 3rd video down. About 1 min and 49 secs long. Check it out and maybe you'll be mind blown as much as i was. And i showed my whole team. All mind blown. Just saying, watch it, all of it, it's got a secret but you wont know unless you watch the whole thing that i didnt do for 15 times until someone told me the secret and its great.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Inspired by that video, we worked for about nine hours today and managed to keep our current minibot consistent with our very consistent deployment apparatus, but cut the time from ~3.5 seconds to ~1.9. It was time well spent!

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

We just finished the Lake Superior Regional. We (2530 "Inconceivable") were the first alliance pick of the #2 seed, 2169, King Tec. In the second elimination match we played, I believe we got as close as anyone to the best time (both time of Deploy+climb as well as clock time at end of climb).

We had a superfast deployment using preloaded surgical tubing (maybe <0.3 sec?), released by a cylinder under robot control at exactly the 10 second mark (its release had to be authorized by pressing a driver station button prior to 10 seconds). We also borrowed 2169's minibot during elims (they brought at least five of them to the event). Theirs was a faster climber than ours, but not by all that much, ours never lost a race in all cases where it was successfully deployed (which was most of the time, not sure of the stats for attempts/success/fails)

I was the drive coach, and didn't monitor the clocks for this, but I wouldn't be surprised if hit the top before the clock read 8 seconds in that second elim match.

I never would have expected a borrowed minibot adapted to another hostbot would be so effective. (Sat lunch we very quickly made some relatively minor changes to our deployer to adapt to their minibot mounting design, though we retained our 'turn on the minibot' mechanism.


John Vriezen
FIRST Team 2530 Mentor and Drive Coach

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Congrats on having a minibot that can get to the top of the tower within 8 seconds left on the clock!

I suspect that most regionals will have at least one or two teams with a minibot deployment system and climb speed capable of the feat.

In the Granite State Regional finals (Week 1), there were 4 successful minibot deployments -- the last minibot got to the top with 6 seconds on the clock!

A super-slowmo video was put together by team 20 to confirm that the referees got their call correct for minibot ordering. (There is a separate thread discussing this video at http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93314.)

One of the neat things about the video is when you view it at maximum resolution in full-screen mode, you can see the field clock at the far right of the blue alliance's driver station. 1519's robot hits the tower with 8 seconds left on the clock, with 40's right behind at 7 seconds. The minibots of 175 and 20 both reach the top just as the clock flips to 6 seconds remaining, with 175 being only the slightest fraction of a second ahead of 20.

From what I saw of the WPI regional on the webcast, I think 40s deployment is faster now than it was at Granite State Regional, and they likely now reach the top with 8 seconds left on the clock as well.

At later regionals, more and more teams will have faster and faster minibots...

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

The real question is are we going to see a less than .75 second minibot.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I'd be a bit wary of automated deployment mechanisms. My team used one that fired at the 10 second mark, and we lost an elimination match when the ref said we broke the plane before the 10 second mark.

The cRio timer isn't perfectly in sync with the field timer.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

In the second round of the semifinals (which we would have lost anyway), we were flagged for deploying early, too...

Video vindicates us; the refs made a bad call.

It happens. No big deal...

...that said, everyone has already been cautioned against using a timer (or a light sensor) because the official clock is the only thing that matters.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

The clearest webcast video from our Kansas CIty matches http://150.199.24.201/WMSDownloads/r.../match_001.asf yields the following measurements:

Deployment = 0.57 sec
Climb = 1.23 sec
Total = 1.80 sec
Gameclock at start of deployment = 8
Gameclock at trigger = 7

We think we can get the deployment faster, but 1.4 total looks like a stretch.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I wish someone got the FLR practice match on video where we, at five seconds, stopped hanging a top-row tube, raced to the tower, deployed our minibot, and beat the timer. It was epic.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Instant replay for FIRST?

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Just got back from the Waterford, Michigan regional where 548 Robostangs had quite literally the fastest minibot I've ever seen. <1 second climb for sure, maybe half second to deploy? As soon as they hit the pole the bot goes up. Absolutely insane. Congratz to them for winning the regional btw.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

I just watched the archived video of the poofs at San Diego deploying a minibot and then scoring a tube with the left over time. Amazing.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Ha that's amazing! Unfortunately right now our one major flaw with our deploying mechanism is that it makes it so that we cannot raise our arm above the height for the lower level without violating the playing configuration limits, but the speed of the minibot makes up for it.

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

Uh... Maybe we should be checking with the builders before talking about the robot? Thats only the case if the deployer is out. We got no penalties called for playing configuration.

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Word has it that the NFL might not need all of their instant replay equipment next season. Maybe we can use it :cool:

Re: Under 1 sec mini bot
 

its all a matter of friction