Bag and Tag issues?
 

With the ship date and time here, many teams need to bag and tag while others need to crate them up.

I am wondering how many teams put the robot away with the bumpers on?

My prior experiences with bag and tag last year, showed that robots with bumpers still on them had a problem going through normal sized doors.

It's heart breaking to see a well engineered robot not be allowed into the event to compete because of the bumpers being on.


Good Luck this year!

See you soon at FLR.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

We got ours thru the normal sized door in the storage room. But then we make the robot two inches below max size every year....

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Our bumpers are on the robot, but not mounted to the frame... Does that count?

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

we have are bumpers on but we havent completed the blue set yet

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Our bumpers aren't in the bag, but next to it in our storage crate. Both sets of them are completed. :D

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

I hope you know that bumpers are counted in the withholding allowance...


And also, only our front bumpers are on, so we can go through a door!

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

We have our bumpers on, just so our robot looks complete until we use up part of our 6 hours to work before Traverse City.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Our robot has bumpers on and we can get through the a normal sized door.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Was there a prior situation we should know about?

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Those bumpers now count against your witholding allowance.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

They are only in there (the crate in our shop) for now as means of storage, they are not in the bag itself.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Right -- which means that they now count against your withholding allowance. If they were in the bag, they would not.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Could someone please show me this rule. As it states the withholding allowance is for robot subsystems etc. Where as the bumper rules state only parts permanently attached to the robot are considered as part of the robot and not the bumper. I can't find or have missed the rule where you must ship your bumpers. Or a rule stating that bumpers are considered part of your robot.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=17043

We're not trying to trick you, man.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Does not mention bumpers.

<R11> does mention that bumpers are not included when determining the size and weight of the robot--but it does not say they are not counted against the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Unfortunately, I think I see where this bumper confusion is coming from. The rules don't actually say that the bumpers are part of the robot, nor the hostbot in particular.* (It's not in the definitions of robot, hostbot or bumper, nor is it explicit in "The Robot".) They do make repeated references to the bumpers being attached to the robot, and even distinguish between parts of the robot and parts of the bumper. This could easily be interpreted as meaning the bumpers are a separate system, distinct from the robot.

And the <R11> exclusion is no help, because there's no explicit inclusive component to that rule—it says what bumpers aren't (part of the weight limit), but doesn't say what they are. (Similarly, it says that the operator console is not part of the weight limit, but doesn't say whether or not it's part of the robot. Same reasoning applies.)

We all (FIRST included, presumably) assume that they are part of the robot, because that's the way it worked before, but if FIRST didn't actually say so in the rulebook, why should we assume any given team will comply with our expectations, rather than use their own good-faith, logically-consistent reading of the rules?

Now, there was that Q&A that said bumpers count toward the withholding allowance—but if you're operating under the assumption that the bumpers aren't part of the robot (for the reasons described previously), then the Q&A is obviously erroneous: fabricated items are components, which are robot parts, and therefore bumpers couldn't be part of the withholding allowance, because they aren't robot parts at all. (And if the Q&A contradicts the rules, we have to go with the rules.)

So, let's make an effort to quote the relevant rule (to put this matter to rest).

*Feel free to correct me if I missed something. I didn't do as thorough a re-reading of the rules as I might have, because I really ought to be doing something else at the moment....

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Yeah, sure. You go ahead and don't count your bumpers in your WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, and show up with 30 lbs of stuff plus bumpers, and see if you're deemed legal to compete...

From <R33> "All other FABRICATED ITEMS to be used on the ROBOT during the competition..."

Are bumpers used on the robot?

Did the actual rules, plus the Q&A clarification, somehow make this unclear?

Bumpers count toward your WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE, plain as day. No amount of rules lawyering or pleading will make it otherwise.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Circular logic: fabricated items are by definition robot parts, so you can't apply <R33> unless you presuppose that bumpers are robot parts. (Which is what we want to demonstrate.)

Anyway, the central point isn't what I think the rule should be, or how I think it will be enforced; rather, it's a matter of what FIRST wrote and didn't write, and whether teams are entitled to take FIRST at its word when it comes to interpreting the rulebook.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Maybe I should explain further, lest anyone get the wrong impression.

First of all, most of the time, if I describe some sort of inconsistency in the rules, it's not even about any particular team's robot. And that's probably a good thing—after all, it's much more difficult to manage rules controversies at an event with a robot in front of you, than it is in the realm of online discussion.

While these sorts of criticisms may come off as curmudgeonly, I'd really prefer not to let deference to FIRST's authority and competence get in the way of frank debate about potential areas for confusion.

In abstract terms, I think there's an exceedingly strong case that FIRST has a responsibility to act in an equitable manner toward teams that are operating in good faith and who follow a logical chain of reasoning that is consistent with the text of the current rules, but which is not consistent with the unspoken intent, spirit or historical interpretation. The rules are a common set of specifications that all the teams agree to follow, and when teams follow the rules differently, they're still following the rules. If that weren't the case, FIRST could tell them "you did what we said, not what we meant, so go rebuild your robot"; that's not equity, that's caprice. When that happens, FIRST looks dumb, the inspectors look dumb, and the teams get angry.

From another perspective, the inspectors are there to make sure that all the robots compete, and do so in full compliance with the rules. Since these aren't exactly parallel objectives, there are occasionally special cases where FIRST implicitly or explicitly approves of deviations from the stated rules—but I view that as the province of extreme last resort, where either the transgression is so minor and the corrective action so onerous that it is nearly impossible to comply, or where no other solution is equitable (with regard to the team in question, as well as all the other teams at the event, and all of the other teams in FIRST who may be impacted by the fallout of the decision).

In practice, that means that making up a new constraint to solve an omission in the rules just doesn't work (even if everyone else thought that constraint was already applicable). The team that interpreted the rules correctly but differently does not deserve to suffer because FIRST failed to anticipate an edge case. Just as the team covenants to follow the rules, FIRST covenants to apply the rules fairly. I'll temper this by noting that fairness is also relative to the impact on the competition. If the results of the ruling would tend to make a mockery of the event, then perhaps strict adherence to that covenant is not appropriate. But bumpers? I don't think this is such a situation.

Now is this the most efficient way to solve rules problems? Maybe not. But teams and officials have to work within the framework of the rulebook in order to have a successful and respectable competition. And as long as we're operating within the framework of the rules as they exist today, I'd have to say that teams in the "bumpers don't count" camp have a legitimate case. Will the inspectors at their events see it the same way? Maybe, maybe not. So as a result, I can hardly advise someone to take that risk deliberately. But if they were already under that impression, I hope that this discussion enables them to more clearly articulate their reasoning.

Finally, as far as FIRST goes, there's a bit of a problem with just changing the rule now: the robots have shipped! If they close the loophole now, they disadvantage a few teams severely. If they leave the loophole open, whoever can take advantage will, though some will complain that they didn't know and can no longer take full advantage. (And if FIRST denies the loophole exists, then they just set the inspectors up for a lot of argumentation. Don't do that unless there's a clear rule that I'm overlooking.) Given that choice, and those outcomes, and presupposing that those who stand to lose the most are innocent of failing to read the rules, I think that explicitly opening the loophole is the best course of action.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Robot went right in the bag, we sealed the tag and called it a day.

We kept our bumpers out of the bag with our withholding allowance. We do it every year, and it just makes handling the robot easier.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

I thought I read somewhere that the Rules, Q&A and Bills's Blog are all official and what is said in these are considered "The Rules" I can't seem to locate this statement anywhere.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Whether or not the bumpers count against the 30lbs this year, FIRST really should excluded them in future years. First of all, a robot built close to the max dimensions cannot fit through a standard doorway with bumpers installed. Second, with the requirements to have two colors of bumpers, many teams build two sets of bumpers, which would be impossible to mount to to robot at the same time and having unattached objects in the bag is incredibly annoying and risks ripping the bag. Third, on a non-logistical note, there is no good reason to require the bumpers to ship with the robot. The bumpers have to be built to very specific specs, leaving little room for innovation, and for the small portion that allows innovation (the mounts), half of it has to be on the robot (and thus shipped with it). It is not like a teams bumpers are going to look any different whether or not they built them during the build season.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Communicating correctly is always difficult.
Case in point...

The poll above... what does it mean... and how do you answer it?

Bumpers one in bag

Does this mean "none" in bag...or "on" in bag?

If I interpret it bumpers on in bag then I say yes
and the "uh,oh, I am scared now, Help" statement does not make sense...

and the "all set to go" is ambigious...all set to include them as half of my 30 lbs with holding allowance.. or actually more like ALL of the withholding allowance. (2 pairs at 15 lbs + each..)

If I interpret it as NONE in bag.... then it makes sense...

The omission or addition of one little letter leads to ambiguous interpretation...

I have to agree that bumpers should have been excluded from the withholding allowance...and allowed to be unbagged...

This is the first time for many of us to experience the bag procedure... putting them in the bag loose (so that the robot can easily fit through a 30" door...) can lead to them bumping around and breaking something else...especially with 2 sets of them...it also makes the already difficult job of carrying the robot...(with slippery plastic on it) even more difficult and unsafe.

For so many of us that have always crated before it had never been an issue. You could put bumpers in the crate with little thought to the safety issues of trying to carry the robot about with an enormous plastic bag on it.

This is a situation where the GDC or Bill should come down and say it was ok to not have the bumpers on the robot. AND that they don't count towards the withholding allowance.

I know that the question was asked in Q and A but I am not sure if anyone was thinking about the safety issues.

I would hope that they re-examine this issue and clarify it before the first competition...

Let's be safe... let's recognize that the rules may have not stated things explicitly... and let's play robots...

(By the way, our team recognized this in advance and our bumpers are in our bag...on the robot...and we are all set to go...... and I voted yes above...)

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

It's susposed to say:

*on the robot.

As in attached and can't be removed.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

According to the forums the bumpers ARE counted in the withholding allowance if not in the bag.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Ok, so My team was all sorts of in a panic over this one and then we really read and parsed the rules. The withholding allowance is tricky, especially if you are trying to "ride" the line. Now I feel like we didn't withhold enough.

Rule R32 says we can bring an unlimited amount of COTS items. So, basically anything in the kit of parts that is unaltered counts as a COTS item and falls under this rule, as does anything that is commercially available to all teams.

Rule R33 says 30 pounds of custom fabricated items. So we could have withheld the arm of our robot weighing 24 pounds and probably gotten away with our electronics as well. Of the 24 pounds that make up the arm, a bit of that is the 2 motors which are both COTS items and therefore don't count, as well as the linear sliders, pneumatic valves, nuts and bolts, and so on. Really with the exception of some wire, hose and the aluminum frame of the arm, not much counts against withholding.

Further this rule is incredibly difficult to enforce. Sure you could weigh the robot in its bag and subtract the weight of the bag. In our case the robot weighs just over 91 pounds out of the bag. Then you would have to weigh the custom fabricated parts we plan to put back on our robot at the event. You couldn't count any COTS items. so really that would be some wire, chain, and our bumpers. (If you really wanted to get technical you would have to not count the 8 bolts and woodnuts on the bumpers.) Can't imagine that adds up to 30 pounds given that the heaviest items withheld are all COTS items.

So lets say it does and our bumpers put us over the limit. We then have a few choices. We could bring unaltered bumper materials (COTS) and make new bumpers on site at a cost of $135 or so which is really more of a hassle than anything else, or we could set our maximum weight lower by the weight of the bumpers and lose some aspect of the robot (probably the arm or babybot deployment system) or, rebuild some part of the robot weighing the same as the bumpers from COTS parts at the venue. (Again more of a hassle and waste of money rather than anything else.) I suggest teams in this predicament just spent the money at Andy Mark and make bumpers on site...

Further what is the advantage of keeping your bumpers separate from your robot? As I see it, $135 or so dollars and 2 hours of time for a couple kids on your team. I guess that could make the difference in how many practice rounds you get...

I guess my point is this, My team is constantly striving to be as gracious and professional as we can. We work hard to give to other teams. We work hard to play fair, and we expect that other teams are doing the same. While we don't make the rules, any team that accidentally broke this rule by withholding their bumpers did not due so with the intention of getting some advantage over other teams.

Then again, if it wasn't for this thread I never would have thought about it.

Edoga

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Do you really want to bring your arm into the venue as a pile of individual parts in order to get the few unmodified COTS items in without counting their weight? As soon as you connect two parts together, or cut off a bit of a part, or add a hole, it's a FABRICATED ITEM.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

This reminds of the hullabaloo a few years ago when someone came up with the bright idea that batteries with the anderson leads attached to the batteries were "fabricated" parts.

In the 5 years my team has participated in FIRST, we have always carried our bumpers into our regional. There is nothing in this thread that would change what we have done year after year.

We are also planning on bringing enough pre-cut plywood to make 2-3 sets of bumpers (along with noodles and fabric) for those teams that might have forgotten something. Are the inspectors going to bar those from the pits? I don't think so.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

I find it puzzling that bumpers aren't excluded. They don't seem like the type of item the withholding allowance was designed for. The fact that bumpers are exempted from the robot's weight leads to a common sense assumption that they would be exempted from the withholding allowance weight, does it not? I can't really blame anybody for making that assumption and missing the Q&A that addresses the issue directly.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

From what we have learne the bumpers ARE included in the witholding allowance wait. We currently were having weight issues with our witholding allowance, but recently discovered they only include the weight of items that you build and have put together. For example; our mini bot when put together is about one pound but when you take the bot apart the bot's one pound doesn't count toward your witholding alliance.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

The Minibot doesn't count towards your withholding allowance in any case.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

MINIBOTs don't count regardless...

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

If the bumpers count towards the withholding allowance than do both sets or bumpers count? Or is it just the weight of one set assuming that they are identical?

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

If they would, in any configuration, go on the robot, they count towards the weight n stuffs. My general rule for FIRST is that if you build it, it's part of the robot unless it's specifically mentioned. For example, the operator console is technically part of the robot, as are the batteries and [s]the drivers.[/s]

As for the poll, I can't really answer it, since they are both on the robot and we're all ready to go. Nobody would ever turn back a robot because it couldn't fit through the stupid door. There's other means of getting a robot in.. not in the last taking it out of the bag. Or maybe since the competitions are generally open-air... never mind.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

As far as I know there is another option. This is what my team did and now I'm really hoping it's legal:

We have 2 bags. The robot (sans bumpers) is in one, and both sets of bumpers are wrapped up into big logs and put in a 2nd bag that is also tagged.

As far as I know teams were given multiple bags and multiple tags so I'm not sure why this would be a problem, and it does solve the withholding allowance/can't fit through doors problem quite well.

This hadn't been mentioned yet, and I know a lot of teams probably thought of something similar or are now wishing they did. However, I don't know very much about Bag and Tag events and was working on another activity while the robot was getting bagged so I'm not sure about the exact rule position on this.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

We bagged with bumpers on for Ship and didn't have any problem at FLR. The Head Ref (Dante) at FLR then ordered us to again bag with bumpers. Of course, our next regional is traditional, so the fitting through doors issue is pretty moot for us. If you're going to another Bag & Tag though, I wouldn't worry about it since they're officially telling people to bag with bumpers. (i.e. they'll probably let you open it if the door's in the way.)

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

We plan to bag with bumpers in the bag, but detached from the robot.

Is this a problem?

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

You should be fine as long as you aren't worried about them shifting around and breaking the robot (either because you have a way to secure them or because you're convinced your robot is plenty sturdy).

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

I was just hoping to zip tie them to the base and arm tower in various locations. Basically I want 30 pounds of withholding, but I want to fit through doors too.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

We zip-tied our bumpers to the robot when we bagged it, and it worked great!

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

Shouldn't this be a moot point by now? Robots were supposed to be bagged or crated on Feb 22nd

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

We crated to our first event, but we will bag to our second, so this will be relevant to us between our first and second event.

Re: Bag and Tag issues?
 

This is exactly what we did, and we had no issues.

We did secure the bumpers together and to the robot within the bag though.