Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Most teams I've seen in the first two weeks have difficulty scoring 6 points.
All those teams would probably be better off playing defense against a powerful offensive opponent if they have a decent minibot and and can prevent just one more complete logo on the top or middle level of their opponents.

Of course, that would assume they spend the time to read the rules enough to prevent needless penalties.

If the opposing alliance can fill up the top two levels in less than about 60-80 seconds, then playing defense probably won't help.

What I've seen is most teams have not paid enough attention to minibots.
And most teams don't actively determine if their offensive vs defensive strategy should be adjusted to maximize their chances of winning particular matches.

It comes down to most teams being overly optimistic about what they can score consistently. Good defense is actually much easier and consistent to play than good offense is.

Also of note: (Flyingcrayons from 1089) part of the alliane that prevailed over 1923, 25, and 1860 after getting "beatdown":

"Im so proud of our alliance for not giving up after that first round beatdown. We could have played out the second match of the QF's much like the first but we figured out a strategy and WON! very proud to say we're the only alliance to beat 25 in elims in 6 (?) years! A very big shout out to 1647, your consistent scoring and beastly minibot all but guaranteed us a ton of of points. 102 played amazing defense throughout and without them, the opposing alliances would have scored at will. We formed a great strategy and made it all the way to the finals as a 6 seed! Good luck 1647 and 102 at all your future events. Sorry 25"

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

You did nothing to counter the point I was actually making. Try re-reading my post to fully understand what I was saying.

And to note, 102 was playing defense in the first match (when the opposition scored 124 points) as well, iirc.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I have no problem with defense. I have a problem with how teams are playing defense.
Don't defense the robots. Defense the game pieces. Punch the tubes away from floor feeders and delay their progress.
Also I notice alot of robots that don't have any scoring capabilities at all with alliance partners who are equally score challenged yet their human player chuck every tube in their arsenal out onto the field. So basically they are feeding the opposing alliance. The first thing a coach should do is give explicit instructions to the human player what to do or not do when they are on their little island on the other side of the field. If they are incapable of following these instructions then get someone who can follow instruction. Being bored is not an excuse to do stupid unnecessary things like that.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Ed would appreciate Pittsburgh Qualifying Match #47 as an example of his suggestions put to effective use.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Tube starvation matches were both big and relatively common at WPI. They were a pretty effective way to equalize yourself versus a good scoring alliance, and made minibot based robots all that much stronger.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Here, I guess, we will have to agree to disagree. We, as a defensive team, would target the oppositions best scorer. We would then defend against them, setting up our defense between the towers and the warning line.

A> If the target robot wanted to get into the scoring zone with a tube, they'd have to get passed us.
B> Once they got passed us (it happens :rolleyes: ) we would lock them in the scoring zone and deprive them of any further tubes. IE stop the runners and prevent them from leaving the zone to get new tubes.
C> If their human player throws the tubes, we are in a position to block.

In essence, all opposing traffic must pass by us. Since most opponents are geared and designed for speed and mobility our drivetrain allowed us to effectivly block multiple robots at one time.

Then at the :30 second mark we'd change our defense to the best minibot ... allowing them into the scoring zone and then trapping them there (far away from their tower :D)

And here we both agree.

Games are won by smart strategy and smart play. If a scoring challanged team gives ammunition to their opponent then they deserve to lose.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I agree with the above post.

Although we (Team 1884) weren't built as a defensive bot, when it came to eliminations, we nominated ourselves as defence. In my opinion, a defence bot is critical to a winning alliance. Although we weren't successful, as number 7 seed, with great tube scorers 1772 and 3205 (who were brilliant partners, thanks for being an awesome alliance and producing the most exciting quarterfinal yet), we almost took down a powerhouse 2nd seed.

What helped contribute to our "success" was the fact that we had two ubertubes every match, two minibots and the 2-1 formation (which due to other reasons, was hampered in our last two quarterfinal matchs). Three offensive robots, especially with an opposing defence bot, makes the zone too crowded, whereas the 2-1 formations limits the opposition's ability to score, makes minibot deployment easier and crowds their zone instead of yours..

A couple of tips from a Mecanum-wheeled defence bot

-If you don't have pushing power, when they are in their scoring zone, push the game pieces, particularly ones the opposing alliance needs, in to your feeder lane, or if it's close to the end of the game, near their tower.
-Be a general nuisance. The order of the game is to be a disruption, not a stopper, and hopefully that will delay their scoring.
-Try and put your robot between your Driver Station and their robot. Mainly because it avoids running in to their scoring zone, but controlling where the game pieces are is more important than were the robots are for most of the game, and usually the game pieces are near the center line. If there's anywhere you can cause a disruption, it's when robots are trying to pick up game pieces.
-Controlling supply is important. Make sure your human player knows strategy, or is easy to communicate with.
-Defend against the minibot. Teams leave in the last 30 seconds to line themselves up - make sure they are not ready by the 15 second mark.

Also, just in general, human players can be more important than just as feeders. In angles where you don't know you have the game piece in your claw, or trying to line-up a minibot, they sometimes have a better angle than you. Use them.

I didn't like Logomotion at kick-off, and it wasn't the most interesting build project, but having gone to the WPI regional (a fantastic regional, thanks to all the volunteers, refs, judges and other teams for making our long journey well worth it), in terms of strategy, driving and watching, it turns out to be a very interesting game.

These are notes from our experience, if you had similar or different ideas please let me know :)