How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Now that we are all bagged & crated and waiting for the Week 1 events, how do you expect to see Logomotion be played and develop as the season progresses?

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
- How effective will defense be?
- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
- How would you like to see the game played?

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
I say close to double, starting at 40.

- How effective will defense be?
Not really early on, will be stronger towards champs.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
Each regional will probably see the same, a change from quals to elims. Quals will be some what self, elims will be more like one team.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Early weeks, maybe see more thrown, later weeks feed/kept in safe zone.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Split decision, I helped build an elevator with a roller claw.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Yes. x3

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Early weeks yes, later weeks it should even out.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I don't think the same way as others on this one. I dn't think we will see a drastic copy cat come champs. The basis is, team will be keeping those as little secret. Also they are so complicated to gain the .5sec edge.

- How would you like to see the game played?
I would love to see one main scorer and two feeders. Gather all tubes, last 30 seconds the feeders get ready to deploy mini and the main scorer makes all logos.

My thoughts without seeing much week 0 footage and much testing of our own robot. We will be playing week 1 at FLR.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Here are my predictions - documented so I can eat them later:
- Early season average winning scores in qualification matches will be below 50. Early average losing score under 15. Late season average winning score around 100. Late season average losing score around 40. Late season elimination round scores will be higher and closer - around 120 to 90. High score 145.
- The impact of defense will decline as more alliances realize that their struggling partners are more valuable as feeders than as blockers. Fast hangers will be limited by tube supply and a feeder could increase their supply by a full Logo per match.
- More tubes will be thrown as the season goes on. It is faster than driving if done properly, and loose tubes won't turn out to be that big of a benefit to your opponents. You can afford to lose a few unless you plan on hanging 18 tubes a match. Besides, would you drive across the field to pick up a loose tube in a herd of bots if your feeder had just laid one in your safe zone? And how many robots playing defense will be good enough at floor pickup or herding to steal it from you?
- Floor pickup will be to Logomotion what ball handling was to Breakaway.
- The minibot race will become more exciting as the season goes on, but their actual influence will decline. If there is only one that works in a match, those 30 points will define the winner and be predictable. When there are four in a match, the net point margin will be less but it will be very fun to watch.
- I would like to see Logomotion turn into a speed contest with feeders and hangers working as a team, and where dedicated defense bots are seen as a sign of desperation by an alliance that knows it can't win the hanging race. I would like to see the rack scores close enough that its anybody's game going into the minbot race (except maybe when my team is out there).

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?

I think mini bots have way to much power in this years game. I am hoping to be wrong. It will make the end of the game more exciting to watch at the championship finals but IMO really boring in normal rounds because your going to have the haves and have not's.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

My Predictions:

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Average scores will increase about 30-50% between week 1 and champs

- How effective will defense be?
Very effective. Many offensive teams will over estimate their bots scoring abilities and will be limites in scoring when good defense is played.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
This will depend on the alliances robot capabilities and will change from match to match

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Thrown ... although I believe this will play into a defensive starvation strategy.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Minibots


- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Yes


- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Minibots will domonate ... although scoring may catch up by championships (unless defens proves as good as I believe it will be)

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Teams will gravitate towards 4-5 effective designs.

- How would you like to see the game played?
Fairly ... with no major rule changes after week 1

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Look through the old Looking Forward Posts. Reapply the titles to this years game, and you will have an accurrate portrait of how things will go.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Teams that dont have minibots with a deployment will continue to NOT have one from weeks 1-6.
In any regional match, if one alliance can put two minibots on the pole and the other alliance cant put any, GAME OVER. As a scouter and coach, the first thing I am going to ask teams is about their minibots or lackthereof.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Lets see how wrong I can be.

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
At some of the first week events we will see matches regularly without any successful minibots. Meaning the scores will be in the 12-25 range. In eliminations that is going to rise to 80-100 range for the eventual regional winning alliance. As the season gets longer and minibots get better rarely will we see matches with less than 50 points being scored to win.

- How effective will defense be?
Not very, defense could have been a very good strategy but there are way too many rules that limit it this year. The pinning rule by itself makes defense very tricky because once an opponent touches anything teams are going to back away in fear.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
Until the tube throwing stops feeder bots are not needed.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Even if they are not thrown in to the open feeding through the slot will be very slow. I imagine teams will throw them to the end of their lane instead of to the middle of the field.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Roller Claws for sure!!
Arms and elevators it depends on who builds them, 148 has a 4 bar arm and 118 has an elevator both are amazing machines and are going to do really well. My team built a roller claw on an elevator that we think will work very well for how we are planning to play the game. I will say that the full double jointed arms are going to be very challenging for teams like they are every year.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Will be make or break for teams. If you can't floor load passing tubes get's way harder and you can't get thrown tubes.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Influence will decrease even into the elimination matches of week one because you will see 4 up in several matches.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
There will be some similar designs but due to deployment some teams won't be able to change their minibot too much.

- How would you like to see the game played?
As it will be, with people adapting strategies and making their robots do things they didn't design for to try to gain an advantage. I love to see an alliance figure out how to beat a team in a novel way.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
33% from week one, with total scores going from 60 to 90. Champs are a whole other animal, where we could see max scores.

- How effective will defense be?
As a defender, i would be too worried violating one of the many rules to actually defend. So, no.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
It will be every bot for itself, but I have not and do not anticipate seeing a feeder that moves faster than a robot's wheels.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
They will be slotted through early qualifications, but if you get the right bots and HPs in elims, we could see people chucking triangles to midfield.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
The internal claw and 2-bar lift my team made. 5 second total lift, we believe XD

In numbers, I expect Grippers and arms, with some shoddy elevators. Success wise? I believe a high quality elevator can beat the arm, but a consistent elevator is a hard thing to ask for. I don't know how consistent ours is.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
I will restate as above; it will be make or break for teams.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Also restating above: influence will decrease even into the elimination matches of week one because you will see 4 up in several matches.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I think teams will be able to master a minibot, by virtue of a simple set of parts, and an infinite amount of tetrix parts able to be brought in.

- How would you like to see the game played?
Making it a good defensive struggle, and figuring out how to devalue endgame. (improbable and impossible)

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

In regard to defense, I'm starting to get the feeling that defensive teams, at least in qualifying matches, will be more of a hindrance rather than assistance. According to the scoring rules, the winning alliance will get as many points as the losing team gets, not including penalties, and the losing team is along the same lines, except with penalties. Under this guise, one might think that, even if you are losing, not to defend at all...

Not to mention, as has been mentioned, the penalties that can more easily be acquired from defending.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Are you reading the 2010 rules? This year is Win/Loss/Tie. The ranking points are a tiebreaker, making defense a viable strategy this year.


I feel that defense will play a huge role, especially in the minibot race: If your team has a 4 second minibot, and another has a 2 second one, if your ally can delay the opposing team to the pole by just two seconds, then you've won the race. Thats an extremely small time margin!

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Defensive bots are essential. The towers are on the side you are defending, the time to get to the towers are cut in half than when trying to score. Deny one "power house" bot from scoring the whole game, and get the minibot to successfully and get first, you have the potential of making a 58 point gap (assuming team is capable of making a logo on the top with the ubertube bonus)

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

In my analysis of the game, the offensive robot will be better able to use the tower as a pick than the defensive robot will, due to penalties for lane incursion. This in and of itself will limit (but not eliminate, of course) defensive effectiveness.

Have I missed something? Am I just flat wrong?

It's happened before. I hope it hasn't happened this time!

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I personally think that the offending robot would get the penalties, if there were to be any. (or at least in my interpretations of strategy). Now the robot DOING the ramming is getting the penalty I presume. What if my strategy just consists of getting in the way, driving perpendicular of the offending robot' velocity. Now work is not done by the defending robot in the collision, the offending bot is. Essentially it is a t bone crash.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?

You'll see a linear increase, but I'm not convinced that the increase will be as large as everyone is saying. One has to remember that championships are a whole different caliber of playing. You often have 2-3 dominant robots that play on one field.

The field this year is deep and more teams than ever have finished their bots early and have posted that this is their best robot ever. I think that the high scores we see at a week 1 event like Alamo won't be too far off the mark from what we'll see all season.

How effective will defense be?

There will be that one defensive alliance that rides one main scorer to the finals. I can feel it.

Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
Feeder bots are becoming slightly obsolete. Why should I waste the effort of one robot to bring me tubes, when the human player can chuck the tube across the field?

Video of the Suffield Scrimmage shows a lot of tubes on the field. So if you can floor load, what's the point of a feeder again?

Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Thrown like no one's business. Good teams will want tubes coming fast. Some teams are counting on slot loading, and more power to them, but any time that isn't on the field is wasting points.

What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Roller Claws and Presets will win matches.

Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Yes. Floor loading will make a difference this year. The amount of difference is up to the level of the field.

Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
I agree with the general consensus that as matches get heated and as you get better and better teams playing, the minibot will decide things.

How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I believe you'll see three tiers of minibots. Tier one is the team that chucked the tetrix GB and worked their own magic. Tier two is the team that did their best with the tetrix GB, and still put up a 2-3 minibot. Tier three are the minibots that are clunky, heavy, and slow.

By championships, I think we'll see more teams fall into tier two, but tier one will still be dominant.

How would you like to see the game played?
I want to see offensive battles. I want to 12-15 logos hung each match. I want to see scores climb high. I want matches to be close to the point where each tube matters. Defensive matches are a bore, but an offensive frenzy is something that everyone can enjoy, even if you're on the other side of the plastic.

And judging by the pure level of robots that we're seeing this year, I think that eliminations in general will be a roller coaster.

- Sunny

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Robot contact has nothing to do with it... I don't think there are any penalties for such a thing in Logomotion.

The difference is that the offensive robot can move into/out of their lane without penalty, while even incidental incursion by a defensive robot will cause a penalty -- or a RED CARD if they touch the offensive robot. Thus, the defensive robot must be much more careful than the offensive robot, because there are two lanes of ingress/egress permitted to the lane.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Drastically after week one, especially while in eliminations. by championships they will all be full.

- How effective will defense be?
Depends on the robot being that two robots cant gang up on another changes the game a bit. toward the finale their will be people stopping the great mini-bot.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
a bit of both. This game is teamwork and communication heavy.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
From what ive seen people do thrown but slotted for select shapes.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Hard to say at this point im a bit bias to elevators because we have one. although 148 makes me double think it.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Oh yes! wasting time if you have to keep going to slot that's possibly a full logo if fast enough.

- Will the mini-bots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
In starting tournaments it will define winners definitely in championships im not quite sure, Great mini-bots can change a game very quickly and can full on close a game out,tie a game or even win.

- How will mini-bots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Similar but I think their will be even better designs at championships as time goes on because of the withheld allowance, Deployment will probably be the key to success by then.

- How would you like to see the game played?
Fast paced, high scoring, jaw droping, tear jerking, Super strategic type of game. ( I think personaly this game will be about teamwork and strategy, thats how tournaments and championships will be one by better critical thinkers.)

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

The key to the game rests in whether or not scrubs throw tubes on the field.

If teams throw tubes willy-nilly, just hoping their own team scores them faster, then the game will play out in a pretty boring "scoring race" fashion that no one wants to watch.

If teams control tube use and don't just throw them aimlessly on the field, the game becomes an intricate dance of tube relays, scoring, occasional defense, and minibot races. I believe an ideal alliance will utilize a good tube passer / feeder every match, with a second robot serving as a combination relay and scorer and a third robot being a pure scorer.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Last time I checked, scoring was cool...

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

:eek: whoa, wait, did I miss something?

::rtm:: yes I did. you're right, QS is a straight forward 0 1 and 2, RS is tie breaking those. Thank you.:D

I'm still curious if we will see RS making a difference in the top 8-10 positions, or if ties will be somewhat of a rarity. As far as I can tell, the higher that both sides score, the better benefit for both of them.

In any case, it will be exciting to watch some Week 1 regional streams and see how things turn out.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
In 2007, even when you didn't have to worry about the other teams taking your tubes, an alliance of three robots struggled to score more then 8 tubes. I don't think you will see much different this year. 8 Tubes, one logo, 2 Uber tubes, factor in minibots, Week 1, 45 Wins you a match, 80+ at Champs.

- How effective will defense be?
Very. One robot, designed to play Defense can shut down an entire alliance. If you see a robot with fold down wings at your regional, watch them closely.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
If a team can't score on the top, i'm telling them to be a feeder. Don't score tubes on the low peg when I can put it up top and triple it's value. Drop it next to me and go get another one. Three top scorers will basically be every team for itself. Anytime that condition doesn't exist, you better hope it turns into a team game.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Throw out.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Elevators and roller claws.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
In Quals, Yes. Elims, No.

- Will the mini-bots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Yes, yes, yes. If your minibot wasn't your top priority I hope you found a way to score 2 tubes at once.

- How will mini-bots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Similar. Very, very, similar. Minibots are way too easy to copy.

- How would you like to see the game played?
I love strategy. I would like each match to be played like a high speed chess match. If that means a shutdown defense, or a high octane offense, 2 opposing strategies duking it out is exciting. Nothing is more frustrating to me then when your watching a match and it's painfully obvious the three teams did not talk any sort of strategy at all. Then they walk off the field and wonder why they got smoked.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Double week one qual average to get championships qual average

- How effective will defense be?
Not very.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
"If a team can't score on the top, i'm telling them to be a feeder. Don't score tubes on the low peg when I can put it up top and triple it's value."
Totally agree with this!


- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
BOTH!

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Elevators and roller claws.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
YES, it always is!

- Will the mini-bots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as
Week one yes. BUT there influence will definitely drop off. At some point it becomes about consistency over speed.

- How will mini-bots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Minibots are easy to copy which is one more reason why it is the consistency that will win out. YOU can have a 1/2 second mini bot but if it only works 1/2 of the time how useful is it?

- How would you like to see the game played?
winning alliances will have at least 2 robots that score autonomously. 1 fast minibot and 1 consistent minibot. As well as a team with a well trained drive team.

WHY IS AUTONOMOUS NOT DISCUSSED HERE!!!!
Did I miss an update where they decided to not include it? lol, just kiding.
But seriously I think it is a highly underrated part of this years game.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?

I would say that Most Matches in week one will end with scores lower than 40. By the end of the season, I'd imagine these will increase to around 60, so 33% or so.

- How effective will defense be?

Defense will define regionals. Week Zero Scrimmages showed us that to defend a robot you have to do nothing more than block the gap between the two towers. Good Offensive machines will need to be prepared to get their hands dirty and escort teams if they want to score.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?

Depends on the match, and the quality of teams. If one robot is CLEARLY better at hanging tubes than the rest, I think the rest will be feeders. The issue is that many teams will look at this as a pride issue and not want to feed another robot.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?

Good tube throws will win matches, and regionals. Every second you can save in pickup is valuable.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?

It doesn't matter. If it works well, it will do well.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?

Floor loading gives a team the capability to shorten the distance they HAVE to travel to get a tube, so yes, it will matter.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?

In early regionals, having a minibot that works will be enough to do well. Most match scores will be low enough that winning the race will be enough points to win the match.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?

Yes. Once the word gets out, minibots will become more uniform, making their speed up the pole less important than deployment time.

- How would you like to see the game played?

In a way that we win, of course. ;)

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

As team captain of 3329 and as a part of the drive team, I think that defense wil be extremely important as the season contiinues. This will be a shining attribute for teams without extremely strong manipulators. I know that because of my teams specially engineered chassis, we plan to make full use of it's special qualities and high maneuverability to run tubes and play some hard defense. :D
As for minibots, important early on, less effective on score later, especially in the elim rounds. it will probably come down to a battle of deployment rather than who has the best bot.

But who really knows...

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

For the teams touting the advantages of defense, where are you going to play it?

Consider a simplified two runners, one scorer strategy. Scorer stays in or near the protected zone. Runners get tubes. Do you defend the runners? Which one? Both?

You can't stop the scoring - the scorer is protected.
You can't stop the running - it's a 2 on 1.

What do you do?

This isn't defense's greatest game.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I was thinking the same thing. If the runners coordinate their actions, each can pass out of their general scoring area on the edges of the tower bottleneck. Because robots cannot work together to inhibit the flow of the game, a single robot cannot block both runners.

If you block one, then who do you block on the return trip, the one with the tube or the one going to get the tube?

Defense will slow scoring down to some degree, but I don't think it will be quite as disastrous as people are saying. (I also have this vision in my head of robots passing tubes over dragonflies...)

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

A feeder seems a huge waste of a bot that could play defense. Defense is easy and effective if run like a gate going back and forth just outside the protected zone. When they come out for a tube you hit the tube. If they come out past you, you block them on the way back in. This is where the floor loading becomes a vulnerability, as a risk to the manipulator and a time waster under defense. The defensive bot can clear out thrown tubes, block loading, block entry and block an end run to the poles. The defender is huge. A fast defender and 2 scorers (like 2007) will be the optimum I think. 3 scorers is a crowd on 2 racks.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I agree - and the scorer can venture out to pick up a thrown tube, etc., if their supply runs low making it a 3 on 1 battle. Not to mention the fact that the defender hasn't scored a single tube or fed one to his scorer the whole time.

If there is a defender present, I think an elevator based lift has an advantage over a pivoting arm, since they have an easier time maneuvering and scoring entirely within the protected zone.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I just saw this comment, and thought of something.

Since most Week 1 Average Scoring Estimates are around 50 points or below, I wonder if we'll see two Powerhouse teams chose to not score any tubes and just deploy two Sub-Two Second Mini-bots? Now that I think about it, if both teams were to score an Ubertube on the top row and then come in first and second in the mini-bot race, they would win 90% of week one Qualification - if not elimination - matches.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Hmmm. So seed 1 (with the fastest minibot at the regional) picks the second fastest minibot and both with consistent ubertube auto scorers. Then 2 play defense the whole match, with 1 scoring, shutting down the other team. Then deploy and win the 30 and 20 point bonuses getting 62 + the tube scores... I like it...

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Why even bother with the defense in that scenario? there's no way they'll make up a 62 point deficit faster than the best two teams at the regional.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

because the only way they can beat you is with more tube scores, so you slow that down as best you can. plus you jam up there end of the field with 4-5 bots. also at the end game your right next to your post.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?In early weeks (1-3) you will see some teams not scoring over 12 and others putting up 40+ on their own. As it gets to Championship most scores will average out around 60 to 30.

- How effective will defense be?during the first 1:30 of the match the best they can do is hope to knock a thrown tube down but they will just end up keeping their own alliance’s score down. In the final 30 seconds they can possibly keep teams with weak drivetrains from even getting to the pole to deploy. (any wonder why you are seeing teams that have had dominant swerve drive using 6 or 8 wheel drive with 2 speeds. They are getting to the pole, good luck stopping them.)

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?A good alliance will coordinate efforts. Help push thrown tubes to scorers. If it is every team for itself it had better be an amazing bot.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?Why drive 50 feet when you can have the weakest scorer on the alliance push thrown tube a couple of feet?

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?Fast pickup & delivery to the peg. I don’t discriminate on type.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?If you want to score quickly.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?In the first 2 to 3 weeks minibot will make or break the game. If you have 2 good minibots on a qualification alliance there is no point in even playing with the tubes. There will be matches in the early weeks where NO minibot scores. 1 working minibot will make or break. You will also see teams with weak drive systems needing to leave the tubes with a minute left to make sure they can get to the pole.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?By Championship most useful minibots will be under 3 seconds. No team with a greater than 3.5 second minibot will make eliminations at Championship. Many teams will not stop working on the minibots others will not make any improvements. Improve or perish.

- How would you like to see the game played?I agree that the rules need to stay the same. I hope defense is limited to keeping teams from minibot deployment. Dexterity and speed with the tubes will make the game fun to watch. The minibot will make the end game exciting. I just hope penalties don’t become the deciding factor in this game.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

This is actually a pretty good idea.

My hypothetical situation was based on a Qualification match, so I just assumed that the two powerhouses were playing against an alliance of two "normal" teams.

But, in your elimination strategy, defense actually makes sense. You can play defense right around the gap in the towers, and at no time are you ever really that far from the towers. At 20 seconds or so, you get into position for the end game and then once the towers go live you deploy and win.

Shoot, you still have your 3rd robot too, they could put up tubes the whole time or something.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Update #13
<G48-C> ALLIANCE ROBOTS may not work together to blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-to-ROBOT defense.

Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

This is from an elim's perspective; quals are up in the air.


- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
50%, From Week 1's top score to Einstein's top score. Not sure about averages.

- How effective will defense be?
Effective against the top bot; however this year there are more pictures and videos of good-working bots than ever; either we're getting good with video or more bots really do work prior to ship. Given penalties and such, it will be effective in assisting to close the scoring gap, but I do not believe it will shut down an entire alliance.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Thrown. It's too crowded in the lane.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
It didn't matter so much in 2007 (lift vs arm) or 2008 (lift/arm vs launch). So long as the tube gets to the high pegs, it doesn't matter tbh. Well-built roller claws have the advantage, but tenacity and driver practice will close the gap for quick grippers. Quick grippers are typically simpler to maintain as well.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Heh. If the "many" were to answer this question then the obvious answer is 'yes'. I'm in that group of "many".

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
A bonus is a bonus, during a different part of the game. I think that minibot influence will remain the from the perspective of those who do not have two: they will remain at a disadvantage throughout the season. Those alliances that do have two minbots to go up will always have the advantage. 0.5 seconds will matter in a match or two. Minibots will only define winners (per se) in matches where 3-4 of the 6 are defenders (typical of elims with the 7th/8th seed).

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I'm sure they will be, just like we'll see teams scrap their skinny roller claws for wider roller claws. It's iterative and open. That's the fun about this competition -- it's so frustrating to design your own bot only to have it trumped by bots with many more resources/ingenuity -- yet it's just as inspirational to compete against those robots, learn, and come back for more later. Plus, those bots typically have more than just 1 great design on their overall bot -- so copycatting really isn't as huge an advantage as we'd think (imo).

- How would you like to see the game played?
4 minibots every match; "Epsilon" formations; "wingmen", etc. It would be interesting to watch organized strategy, not organized chaos.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I'm thinking the latter part of that rule where it's essentially 2 on 2 (or man on man coverage) and not an organized blockade. My primary defense method would be to hit the tube that they want to pick up. But I guess it's debatable as to what your trying to do when things get congested. Maybe we need clarification on the logistics of that rule. Interesting...

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Update #13
<G48-C> ALLIANCE ROBOTS may not work together to blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-to-ROBOT defense.

Violation: PENALTY plus RED CARD

Is putting 2 robots in between your two towers preventing robots from getting to or from the scoring grid considered a blockade? Because the robots can still travel around the towers through the lane.

does this rule pretty much mean that you cant have 2 or 3 robots from your alliance near each other on defense?

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Go around through the lane??? You mean go into the lane that costs them a red card??? How is that not a blockade? :confused:

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Hmmm,

Lemme see here, my little defensive bot against the entire other alliance? With 30 second cycle times, I'd pin 1 runner. The Scorer is staying in the 'safe zone' to stay away from me. So that means the other runner can get a total of 2 tubes gets delivered to the 'scorer' (and scored) while my offensive partners are free to score at will.

I can even go after and pin their best minibot deployer at the 20 second mark (keeping them far away from their towers) to try and allow my partners to win the minibot race.

I'll take that strategy for the win.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I'm on the opposing side. I think that this year may be one of the most boring yet. It is essentially a copy of Rack 'N' Roll for the most part, which means that we will mainly see teams either repeating what they did for Rack 'N' Roll, or doing whatever a winning team did.

Defense, one of my favorite things to build a robot for, will be either too weak, or impossible to get around. Early on, teams will focus on scoring ONLY, and when teams try to defend, it will be too easy! There are many places where it will be hard for a robot to maneuver, and blocking those places will be a small challenge for the other teams. For the most part, robots this year are going to have a lot of telescoping arms, or elevator-like mechanisms, that cannot go out far, just up. It will be easy to block an incoming robot from scoring if they cannot move their hanging mechanism near the pegs. I've also seen many designs built for defense that cannot score, but completely block off an opponent when they try to come back after receiving a tube, or when they try to get near the feeding station. The competition will be fun, since all FIRST competitions are, but the creativity level and exciting new robots will be at an all time low.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but it does make sense.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

How does it take 30 seconds for a kitbot to run across the field twice? You can run a tube in 15 seconds, easily.

This is assuming that one of the runners is completely unable to do anything the second you decide to play defense on them (not true), and it also assumes that the scorer never has an opportunity to take a tube.

You can't take a robot out of a match that easily, between the pinning rule and protected zones.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Depends. If you have scoring machines coupled with an amazing defense, and good throwers, then it's going to be high to low. Otherwise, it'll depend on the robots.

- How effective will defense be?
Personally, not very much. I say it depends on the robots you go against. Elevators will be easy to block, while arms may be harder.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
It all depends on the strategy of the alliances. Whatever works, but in order to have feederbots, you'll need good throwers that can get the tubes half way across the field, and feederbots that can get the tubes off the ground quickly.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
If teams have good throwers, who can accurately throw the tubes across the field, then throwing is what they want. Feeding is only viable if you have a robot that can easily get fed from the feeder and get out of the feeding area, and across the field safely.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
All will be good. Elevators are easy to get up to the maximum height, but can be inaccurate and must be next to the pegs to score. Rotating arms (like the one we use), can score on the pegs from OUTSIDE the scoring zone, which is useful if being blocked, and can throw tubes far ahead of them if they are blocked, so that a teammate can get it. Arms would have to be accurate, and fast to move, though. (Which ours is)

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Like I said before, if an alliance has good throwers, then robots need to be ready to get tubes anywhere, from ANY position. This includes leaning up against a wall.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Early on when the minibots are still in development, they could make or break a match. Later on when all teams have seen the other minibots, they will be just a scoring factor, that everyone has.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
I think that by the championships, everybody will have a similar method of traveling up the pole. I've already seen 4 teams use our method, but they probably didn't steal it.

- How would you like to see the game played?
I would like to see the matches played with different strategies in the beginning, but having teams mix their strategies together in the elimination rounds.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
Qualifying- average 20-40 (over half points will be minibot points)
Elimination Winners: 70-90
(45 or 50 points of the Winners' total will be minibots giving a 25 or 15 point advantage over the losers)
(scoring on the lower two rows will be relatively meaningless in the eliminations- completing two logos on the top row will be critical)

- How effective will defense be?
One good defensive bot can reduce logo scoring by 30-40% just by getting in the way and not trying to pin.
In other words, very effective if they pay attention to the rules.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
2 offense: 1 defense will become the norm as the game develops.
Feeders will have a hard time handing off to scorers if there is a good defending bot. At the other end, two run/scorers will be free of hassle if an opposing alliance chooses to use a feeder instead of a defender. Also, a feeder bot means your opposing alliance can throw logo pieces without risk.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
If no defender, throwing is viable if HP can get it 3/4 down field.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
minibots ;)

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Floor loading will work against alliances that don't strategize about defense.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
Minbots will define 15-25 point advantage over lesser teams. If minibots equalize- it becomes completely a game of chance - the difference in logo scoring will almost never define the winner at the regional nor the championship.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
ALL 4 minibots in the championship will hit the top of the towers before the clock hits 8 seconds left.
The referees will have no realistic way to know if a minibot jumped the gun by 20-70 ms. (high speed instant replay will show the referees getting it wrong).

- How would you like to see the game played?[/quote]

Bobby Locke:
“You drive for show but putt for dough.”

Putting large bright logo pieces high in the air will provide the arena with SHOW.

Most people in the arena won't even see the minibots scamper up the poles so fast- they will just look at lights and the scoreboard- they will define the winner of LOGOmotion.

The minibots are the PUTT of LOGOmotion.

Maybe the game should be renamed MINIBOTmotion :D

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

one thing that may factor into that is an all time high in mechanum drives. personally i think that a good tank drive will be able to push all of the mechanums around without difficulty. thus i conclude that in in elims, where the primary feeders and things to play defense on will be kit-bots (super fast, no pushing power, cant turn well) and mechanums (not as maneuverable on the open feild as a good tank, and not as powerfull either.) thus i think that the stated strategy is only good if you have a custom setup tank, and it is early in the day Friday.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I think the smart teams won't be picking mecanum drives to be running as feeders.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Not only do feeders need to be fast, they need to be able to push through defenders. A mecanum is good in the fact that they can strafe to score, if they miss their first pass.


I feel that minibots will have a scoring adjustment (with great controversy on CD) at the end of Week one.

I also predict that throwing tubes past the center line will be banned.

Note that these are completely unbased predictions, but we shall see how it plays out!

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

- How much will the average scores increase over the course of the season?
By 5-6 points each week, leveling off at one point and staying at a general rate.

- How effective will defense be?
A successful defensive strategy will win out 2/3rds of the time.

- Will alliances use feeder bots & hangers, or will it be every team for itself?
An with weak human players will need feeder bots. I see Feeder Bots to have a good time in this competition, but only at select regionals where competition is less defensive. You will most likely not see a feeder bot on Einstein Field.

- Will tubes be fed through the slot or thrown?
Thrown, thrown and more throwing.

- What will dominate - Grippers or Roller Claws? Rotating arms or Elevators?
Roller Claws, and Elevators.

- Will floor loading be as important as many think?
Yes.

- Will the minibots define the winners, or will their influence decrease as more teams get them working?
It will define which teams will take home 1st place trophies.

- How will minibots develop? Will they all be similar by Championship?
Some teams may revamp the minibots, and I expect to see minibots evolve as designs are unveiled.

- How would you like to see the game played?
Each alliance takes advantage of Auto-mode and goes for as many tubes as possible. The minibots should be played like any end game - don't play to win the minibot race. Play to win the entire match time.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

How can you have an arm that scores the top rung from OUTSIDE the scoring zone without being over 84" long? I don't see this... if you are being blocked... the blocker will be between you and the scoring grid...which means your robot will be out at the yellow line or beyond... If you have an arm on your robot that long you would be beyond 84"....

Remember its not as simple as just going over an opponent that is right under the goals...they have to be 6 feet away from the goals...

I just can't see this... can you explain?

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I disagree: Scoring outside the Zone is a disadvantage to you, since a defender can easilly knock you around.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Actually you are both right. Rankings are first generated on the W-L-T system, like years previous to 2010. This is your qualification score.

In order to break ties on this system, you then get a Ranking score on top of your qualifcation score. If you win you get your oppones unpenalised score and If you loose or tie your get your penalised score.

This system gives you WLT, but at the same time looks at how easy or hard your win was, and rewards teams who won by a close call compared to those who just completely dominated in each match.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds? and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them? would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways?

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds?
They will probably be pretty common in the later rounds but not so much in the quals. as far as choosing for alliances, every alliance will probably have at LEAST one runner.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them?
They will all have to be fast, with one faster and another that is quick albiet less with more pushing power to overcome any mid-field jamming that may occur.

would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways? hard to say. if they were smart, no, they would avoid each other like crazy to score as fast as possible. however, the nearer the endgame, the more interference we may see due to deployment and defense of such.

just my spin on the issue.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Teams tend to drastically overestimate how many other teams will be good scorers at regionals. A lot of teams will have a lot of trouble scoring, especially at their first event, and will be looking for things to do other than pure scoring. Tube passing is one. Defense is another, but this game doesn't call for as much defense as it seems in my personal opinion.

Not any more than 3 scorers versus 3 scorers would. 2 runners for 2 slots is a pretty good balance, with some "spot" defense here and there to slow down critical tubes.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

how often does everyone REALLY think that runner bots will be chosen for alliances in the elim rounds?

If my alliance has two robots that can pick up from the ground. Why waste a pick on a robot that will bring me tubes when I've got human players for this?

If it came down a picking a robot, I'd much rather pick a defensive bot than a runner bot.

and what do you think that the average attributes will be common amongst them?

Runner should be what they say they are. Runners. If they aren't fast and then they aren't running.

would two teams with 1 scorer and 2 runners get in each others ways?

Nope. If you a runner for each slot, then it's fine because both runners can stay on opposite halves of the field. But, I think you'll find some congestion between the runners and the opposing alliance. It's a tight squeeze when 5 bots are in one half of the field.

- Sunny

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Thats a good point cris. by critical tubes do you mean like the last one for a logo? I only think that along with the tubes, which may or may not happen (it will probably depend on the match and who is playing whom), but defense will be critical in the end game because of the large influence of the minibots.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

My point is our robot can get tubes INTO the scoring area if blocked by fully extending the arm. We have a really good arm. We can even sometimes score on the middle peg depending on where we are blocked.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

We have sturdy robot a drive train, so it'll be hard to push us around. Our arm can go high, and long, so we should be able to get the tube over the opposing robot. Our engineering team knows more about how that works. I'm just a programmer. We can even spit tubes out, about a foot to 2 feet, so we can easily get OVER an opposing robot.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

are those of you promoting the power of defense in this years game considering the heavy weight that a 30 point penalty carries and how easy it is to incur such a penalty...

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

That's why you choose a team for your alliance that can play defense without getting any penalties.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Then you defend without pinning.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

There is only one rule with a 30 point penalty:

<G50> An ALLIANCE may not pin an opponent ROBOT that is in contact with a field border or TOWER for more than 5 seconds. A ROBOT will be considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least 6 feet. The pinning ROBOT(S) must then wait for at least 3 seconds before attempting to pin the same ROBOT again. Violation: 10 PENALTIES

Intelligent defense does not even pin. It just has to stay in the way.
It is like playing zone defense in basketball just cutting off the driving lanes to the goal. Only a much stronger or dramatically faster and more nimble robot can get around a robot that is just trying to dramatically slow down progress of the offensive bot to and from the scoring zone. And even the best robots will knocked off their scoring rhythm by effective defense.

Pure mecanum drives are doomed in this game. bots could be pushed back 3/4th the length of the field without being pinned- but that would pull a defender out of position: a standard mecanum trying to be a scorer or runner will just run into a good defender and won't be able to budge it.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Good luck with that.
Forget looking at 2007. Look at 2005 where a similar devastating penalty awaited teams who foolishly played defense near the loading zone AND THEY STILL DIDI IT!
It's one thing to play Smash Everything With The Opposite Bumper Color Defense which teams will be cured of wanting to use with the first 30 point penalty levied against them and it's another to be consistent at playing effective defense when FIRST is going out of it's way to legislate it out.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Then don't play defense right next to the loading zone!

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Funny, alot of team did that and 2005.
And considering so many teams apparent natural aversion to actually reading the rules I expect them to do the same this year as well readily and often.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

But you don't HAVE to. Teams are not required to play defense next to the loading zone. My team already has a map of where our defensive player will go, and what they will do.

We read the rules!

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

We read the rules too but there are a whole lot who don't and they're gonna hurt alot of the teams who do. It happens every year and this year it'll be more devastating than ever with that big point penalty.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Could some of this be addressed before a match? If the 3 drives teams got together and made sure the other teams were clear on rules about pinning and defense, would that reduce the risk of defensive penalties? And yes, I'm aware that not every team listens to things discussed pre-match.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

It can... But will the people who haven't bothered to learn the rules well suddenly start paying attention just before a match? I am dubious...

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

It's obvious that teams that don't read and study the rules will cause significant penalties this year. This will greatly annoy good teams that spent the time and effort to understand all the rules and are hugely invested in their teams and their robots.

It's quite another thing to imply that there won't be MANY good defensive teams that will play be able to consistently avoid significant penalties.

The scrimmages so far looked like a defensive dream scenario.

The top offensive teams would like to strike fear in teams that want to consider playing good defense.

My assessment is that smart defense by strong robots will be so effective that the GDC will be looking to tilt the rules even more toward offense:

The GDC might consider allowing offensive robots to use the opposing alliances feeder lanes to get around defense or even move the protected zone all the way out to the caution line and move the caution line out to the towers or they could :rolleyes: redefine "pinning" as "just getting in the way or other forms of humiliation".

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Do you really think that's necessary?

Robots already can't team up to impede the flow of the game... But robots *CAN* team up to confound single-robot defensive strategies... Unless you can block both sides of the bottleneck at the same time, by yourself, then defense will be at best a slowing strategy.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Do you guys find it funny that on this one page of discussion, four of us will be at FLR.

We built a defensive robot, but have trained our drive team(s) to avoid pinning penalties: Remember, you can pin against other robots, as long as its not a field boundary.

We hope to have a pre-match strategy meeting with all of you, and I feel that everyone should listen and pay attention to those. We will be bringing a copy of the manual with our Operator Console everywhere, to clear up last minute rule debates!

EDIT: Thats the point pfreivald. If a robot has a 15 second cycle time with no defense, and a 30 one with defense, you have lowered that robot's effectiveness by 50%. If that robot was acting as a feeder, then you've disrupted it's entire alliance. The trick is playing defense on more than one bot at a time. The goal in Logomotion is not to block, but to delay.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Logomotion feels like it wants to be a zig-zaging Overdrive. FIRST's GDC wants to see as less defense as possible, similar to the defenseless Overdrive game. In a perfect Logomotion, everyone just goes back and fourth to get tubes and score and just spends the last 15 seconds to line up to, launch and place in the minibot race.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

And when it does happen, we'll be laughing!

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Wow I actually saw a match just like that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxujTCgQPgg

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

You won't be if they're on your alliance.
Most likely you'll be scratching them off your list.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

...and if, in that time, the defensive robot has scored nothing, the offensive robot that has a good minibot deployment will still win.

My half of what it could be vs. your nothing benefits me every time.

I'm not saying that defense doesn't matter -- it most certainly does -- but I would rather see three offensive robots than two offense and one defense on my alliance, and either on of those is preferable to two defense and one offense.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Who says that said defensive robot doesnt have a better minibot? And because it was built to be defensive, it is able to power through your defense on it's way to the tower.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

It actually does not need to, since the defensive bot would be on the side with their designated towers the whole game.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

We already have ideas of alliances. They know the rules.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I think that MINIBOT is orthogonal to offense/defense.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

If your alliance's minibots are better than the opposing alliances's minbots, then it is advantageous for your alliance to have a lower scoring game that includes defense.

Orthogonally is not in play for that case.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

...and that's a big 'if'. MINIBOTs are, like everything else, subjective to the vagaries of the alliances.

If your minibots are better than your opponents' minibots, then depressing the score of the game only matters insofar as your opponents' tube scoring is better than your tube scoring...

...so if you are concentrating on keeping their score down, you are not concentrating on increasing your own score.

Defense, thus, is a winning strategy only for alliances that are outclassed offensively but also have strong minibots...

...but I have a hard time believing that teams that focused on 'defense + minibots' will categorically have better minibots than teams that focused on 'offense + minibots'.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

One thing: If there's a dragonfly ( :eek: ) then the pivoting arm would be able to get a tube over it, while an elevator would not.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I have not heard anyone that is arguing for including defense that is also advocating that the strategy should be all defense plus minibots. Those here advocating including defense are typically proposing two-thirds LOGO offensive strategy versus a three-thirds LOGO offensive strategy.

The definition of orthogonality is that it should not have any influence on the strategy independent of the cases or circumstances. I pointed to a realistic case, even if it were unlikely, it still disproves the claimed orthogonality.
Conversely, if an alliance knows they have a disadvantage in minibots, then they want higher LOGO scoring and may want a third robot focused on offense to try and maximize the score prior to END GAME.

The LOGO scoring will be highly variable: on the other hand, I suspect the full 75 minibot points will generally be scored in the finals and semifinals.

For LOGO scoring, the top row will likely be the only one that matters- Great offensive teams will go for 48-54 points based on 2 or 3 ubertubes and 2 complete logos. Getting that third and fourth complete logos are only 12 points each.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I don't think that prognostication and proof have a place in the same discussion. I understand the point you are making, but I disagree with it.

Time will tell -- of that we can both be certain.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

That's what our robot does!

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Don't assume that. A dragonfly robot would not be a problem for us (elevator robot) if we were to employ a runner strategy; our roller claw can "spit out" tubes four to six feet.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Just don't complain when that defender engages your robot with your CG that high.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I think this strategy is going to be quite dominant at regionals. A lot of teams can score if they're left alone, but surprisingly few will be able to pass tubes around defenders.

We're looking for teams like that when scouting at WPI. Just saying. :)

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I think that everyone is forgetting that defense may not need to be employed until the ENDGAME. unless you are preventing a bot from scoring the last tube to a LOGO, you are wasting your time (assuming that you have all of your logos complete). I think that the dominant strategy will be running until the endgame and you prevent another team from putting their minibot onto the tower, thus denying them their potential thirty/twenty point bonus. And as for choosing alliances, we are looking for a good runner and a good, consistent scorer both with CONSISTENT minibots (both must be well versed in the rules).

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I don't usually comment on these but I had to say something. Defense will definitely be attempted. It will be most important in the open field. Once a robot gets to it's tower or scoring zone, there's really nothing you can do. I also think that, as cluttered as the field seems with 6 robots on it, it will be easy to confuse defensive robots or bait them, and then continue getting tubes and scoring. End game defense will be very important to block teams from deploying. Other than that, if you don't have a strong offensive strategy, you're done in this game. Plain and simple, just like Ed says, "to play defense, you have to catch up to us first"

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

How are your predictions looking after Week 1?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93266

Minibots were the deciding factor in just about any match where only one was successful. Less when each alliance got one. Floor pickup was huge. Defense didn't seem particularly effective. There were examples of good and bad rollers, grippers, and everything else. Scores improved over the course of the event. I expect average scores will continue to improve - particularly losing scores. I don't expect to see a lot of improvement in high scores (135 max so far).

This was a challenging game to build for, and I expect to see a lot of very successful "continuous improvement" efforts going forward.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Well 1557 had to be the first team to go with the madhouse defensive approach this year and got smacked with 16 penalties for it including a red card or two. Playing this kind of defense this year will simply cost you. It looks like defending game pieces (knocking them away from robots is a much better idea than chasing robots up and down the field and ramming into them where you could find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Just because 1 team couldn't keep away from penalties does not make Defense a bad tactic. My team (1729) played defense at GSR all weekend long, ranked 11th, and had a total of 2 penalties for the weekend.

Smart defense is very effective. In order to play smart defense your driveteam has to completely understand the restrictions they are under, and the consequences of their actions.

With all these antidefense posts you make, one wonders if you are concerned that you cannot push through defense. :eek:

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

I don't think the X-Cats are all that worried about their abilities in this game...

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

The x-cats are one of the best teams in FIRST. I'm just trying to figure out why Koko Ed keeps deriding Defensive teams.

I've seen a lot of offensive teams that are unable to score against mediocre defense, yet I wouldn't deride their strategy (too much).

If a team believes they can prevent more points being scored than they could score, well then it just makes sense to do so.

The game not only requires a good robot, but also a good strategy going in and properly executing that strategy. Defense is just one of those strategies, and if properly executed can be very effective.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Implying that it is personal worries over 191's robot that drives his opinion isn't exactly good discourse.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

If I have offended anyone, I apologize. That wasn't my intention.

My intention was to provide discorse as to the capabilities and effectiveness of a defensive robot, with a team playing a smart defensive strategy.

Koko Ed's posts seemed to point out that playing a defensive strategy was only going to garner you penalties and losses. This is not the case everytime. He points out a statistical anomaly (a single team garnering 16 penalties) as proof that 'chasing other robots around' (IE defense against other robots and not defense against tubes) is a bad choice. I would counter with My team where we kept our opponents to 12 points or less in 8 of out 10 seeding matches (against some of the highest scorers at BAE) and we only had 2 penalties (both were avoidable, too :eek: ). In the end, it's more about smart execution of your strategy than whether you chose offense or defense.

The above is, as always, JM(NS)HO. ;)

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

It's fairly obvious if you can't score consistently on the top level and your opponents can, then you should be playing defense.

I saw teams with great minibots that failed to recognize that playing offense- trying to score logos on the bottom level while your opponents scored logos on the top level is just bad math.

(Unless your real goal is just to highlight what your team worked so hard on, instead of actually trying to win based on the best strategy available to you.)

The very best alliances can only complete 2 or 3 logos.
Disrupting them by half is a game changer.

Re: How Will Logomotion Play Out and Develop?
 

Let's start with your last statement. 1923, 25, and 1860 scored 4 and 2/3 logos in Trenton last week. They actually had the tube on to complete the 5th, but it got hung up and fell off. 25 then went for the minibot rather than re-placing it. There have been multiple other instances of 4+ logos being hung. And we haven't even started the eliminations in week 2.

Secondly, if you can score on the bottom as quickly as your opponent can score on the top, and you have better minibots, I see no problem scoring on the bottom instead of defense. You're going to have a 25-50 point advantage based on minibots. Assuming no uber-tubes, 50 race points + two bottom logos (12) is worth 62 points. 25 race points + two top logos (36) is worth 61 points. A 62-61 win is a whole lot better for your RS than a 50-30ish win.
Obviously there's no guarantee that this will be exactly how it plays out, and uber-tubes and more scoring can obviously factor in. But it's just a case study showing why scoring may be a valid alternative, even if it's a lower value portion of the peg grid.

This is especially true when you consider that your scoring rate, even if lower than your opponents', may not be the same as your defensive "anti-scoring" rate. Simply put, you might not be able to "subtract" as many points by playing defense as you would add by playing offense (or playing a "support" role). Often case this is by no fault of your own and not for a lack of defensive ability. There are strategies and robots that are difficult to defend against and require a significant commitment (often of more than one robot) in order to put a dent into their score.
Naturally the inverse is also true, where some alliances will be particularly easy to defend (or otherwise lower their score).

I'm not saying that defense is never a wise choice. But the automatic assumption that just because the opponent is a better scorer than you are means you should play defense is foolish. As is the assumption that defense and offense are mutually exclusive actions.