Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

What would be the difference between this and doing a full systems checkout in the pit, including charging your pneumatics, then changing out the battery prior to leaving for a match? I would say that the one battery rule (and any rule) applies during the match - it all the rules apply between matches then you couldn't take the bumpers off, right?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I asked in the Q&A before what takes precedence, since I always thought that the manual was the bible regardless of other communications. I asked in regards to last year's last minute change to having inspections on Wednesday and what could be done in the pits on Wednesday, since the manual had not been changed and the notifications were per a FIRST email and Bill's Blog. The response was that the latest official communication in any form from FIRST takes precedence, so in this case that would be the A-Z guide.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I had a team that charged their robot using an off board compressor and battery. They also had a compressor on the robot. According to the rules a team can only use 1 battery, 1 compressor and the off board compressor rules apply. IE the compressor must be controlled by the CRio. I cannot see were the question about these rules comes from.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

the question really is: When does the robot become the ROBOT? Most teams that pre-charge their robot take the position the the ROBOT begins when the starting buzzer sounds. The GDC is rather quiet on this point.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

wilson,
In this particular case, the safety of the participants is a prime concern. Pre-Charging using the on board battery under Crio control insures that the max allowable pressure on this system is always maintained. A team that charges their pneumatics without Crio control with a second battery not only risks injury, but also has the ability to charge at a higher pressure than their opponents. Safety is forever, not just on the field.
I wish I had a nickel for every team that has told me that they think it is OK to connect the compressor to a battery and then disconnect it when they think it reaches pressure. I could buy a better laptop with that change.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

You are completely correct. The original question stated the battery "was plugged into the robot" to charge pneumatics. I was assuming the compressor was under cRIO control. I see a lot of things that I would consider unsafe every year and pre-changing robots in the queue lines one of those things. I think there should be a place to do those sorts of things right before you take the field. An on deck circle perhaps? But this not the place to discuss this.

Back to your regularly scheduled Inspection Tips thread. :)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

In the case I mentioned above, where a team was using an auxiliary battery to charge their pneumatics in line, it was done in a safe manner, since they were only substituting the back-up battery for their game battery by plugging it into the connector on the robot. Thus everything was under cRIO control. No problem there.

The concern I had is that the rules say all power for the robot must come from ONE battery. In this case, it wasn't. Part of the energy stored on the robot in the form of air pressure had been placed there by a second battery.

Now I know teams can charge in the pits if done safely, and they can swap batteries at any time before the match starts, but in this case, it appeared to be an instance of a direct violation of the intent of the rule, if not the rule itself.

Certainly, there are more pressing issues for us to be concerned about, particularly those dealing with safety, but I thought I would get some more opinions on this one.

I'll miss Championships this year due to pressing family issues. Hope to see you all there next year.

Dr. Bob

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

It is possible to violate the intent of a rule without violating any rules. Unfortunately, FRC does not have a rule like this gem from the SAE Aero Design rulebook: "The violations of the intent of a rule will be considered a violation of the rule itself." This led to a Q&A ruling a couple years back about something being a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules.

As such, while charging pneumatics with one battery and competing with another may be against the spirit of the rules, it is impossible to call a violation of the letter of the rules. (Also note that if it were a rule, it would be impossible to enforce.)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

If it were a rule, I think the vast majority of teams would "enforce" it on themselves, and would take a single-battery energy limit into account when designing their robots. For safety, I would prefer a rule requiring robots to be carried onto the field completely de-energized; i.e., main breaker off and air release valve open.

However, this year we will play by this year's rules.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

That would make autonomous awfully boring.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Actually the rule says it needs to be easily accessible.
Visibility is just a recommendation.

If my robot starts to smoke, I don't want a head ref anywhere near it.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

<R34> The only legal source of electrical energy for the ROBOT/HOSTBOT during the competition
is one MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery, OR one EnerSys NP 18-12
battery, as provided in the 2011 KOP. Batteries integral to and part of a COTS computing
device are also permitted (i.e. laptop batteries), provided they’re only used to power the
COTS computing device.

<R35> Items specifically prohibited from use on the ROBOT include:
A. any battery other than, or in addition to, the one primary battery permitted by Rule <R34>
the MINIBOT battery, or a battery contained in a COTS computing device,


One could argue that it is not in the spirit of the rules since energy on-board the robot during a match is coming from two separate batteries. However, as long as both batteries are running through the PD/cRIO and not more than one at a time is hooked up, I do not believe to be a letter of the rules violation.

As a side note, if you are drawing so much energy off the battery that you need to swap them out after charging your compressed air system, you may need to rethink part of your design.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Could we find a way to have robots run compressors while we wait for them to synch with the FMS?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Allowing code to execute without a DS link would render the system watchdog worthless.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Absolutely correct!