Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

OK everyone, time to start thinking about issues you need to address for FRC events. I am basing some on experience and some on reports from preseason and first week events.
Please feel free to add to this list. I will as time goes on.

1. Bumpers! Your bumper system must satisfy all of <R07, 08 & 09> not just the parts that you want. Numbers need to be seen from 100 feet away by grandmothers in the stands and anyone else who is taking stats for strategy. If you want to be picked, make the numbers legible from the top row.

2. Update all software and firmware you are using for anything that might be update able. Check the First website for info and links.

3. Minibot rules are intentionally written and limited. Don't force inspectors to tell you something needs to be removed. We really don't like looking into team members faces and telling them that the rules were updated twice a week or that their design choice was ruled illegal in TU#4 and we are now up to #16.

4. Inspectors use the latest version of the inspection checklist for both robot and minibot reflecting the latest rules changes when they occur. We are using Rev K of Section 04 this week. If you have a specific Q&A answer that you think applies, bring a copy for your inspection team.

5. Before you make major changes to your robot, check with your inspector. You may have misunderstood a ruling or misinterpreted a decision. All teams may ask for the LRI at their event for a decision should they disagree with an inspector's ruling. LRI's will contact the FTA, Head Ref, or someone higher if there is no clear answer. We make mistakes sometimes and I don't want you to be adversely affected by a wrong decision.

6. The box and scale are unambiguous. You either fit or you don't. You are either over 120 lbs or under. Weight and size checks are free. Make use of the scale and box before you come in for an official inspection. Bring your robot over when you get it out of the crate. Know early.

7. You must reinspect whenever you make a change at the event. Check with an inspector prior to the change, they may have a better idea if you ask. They want you to have a great weekend. All robots in finals matches plus alternates will be reinspected prior to match play.

8. Pneumatic rules have been loosened this year but are not unrestricted. Parts still need to be COTS, unmodified and rated for 125 psi working pressure. Off board compressors still need to meet the rules and have to be controlled by the Crio and robot battery. That is the battery on the robot, not another robot battery. You only get to put the compressor (and a few other components) off board to save weight. All other rules apply still apply.

9. There are certain items on the robot that have labels that need to be seen. Don't paint over the labels or mount the components so they can't be seen and read. Wire color codes are strictly enforced. Use the right colors even if you have a sponsor who gave you thousands of feet of rainbow colored wire, only the colors specified can be on your competition robot.

10. Inspectors want everyone to have a fun event. We will be working all weekend toward that goal.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

hanks for the info!

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Unless you are informed differently by your event organizers, remove your bumpers, minibot and battery before coming up for your initial inspection. Bring these items with you as the minibot and bumpers will be weighed separately.

Also, bring your BOM with you to the initial inspection and offer it up front to your inspectors. They will appreciate it.

Do the WPA configuration kiosk before your first practice match.

Lastly, do your inspection as early as possible. You will find the inspection crew ready and waiting early in the day rather than backed up at the end of the day.

As an example: If your arm is in need of the tender mercies of your pit crew, call it a non-functional decoration and have the rest of the robot inspected. You can get your inspection sticker and be assured that you are legal for Friday and have no other inspection issues to attend to. Now you can work on your arm for the rest of Thursday and ask for a re-inspection when ready. Usually, only the parts which were changed will be inspected.

Above all, have fun and, if you need help, ask for it... Your inspectors will be glad to help or try to arrange for another team to help you.

This should not be a traumatic experience!

Regards,

Mike

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

OK,
Time for round two....

1. As Mike said, inspect early. There is a penalty for not being inspected...
<T03> A TEAM will only be allowed to participate in a MATCH and receive qualification, ranking, and Coopertition points only if it has passed inspection. If it is learned after the start of the MATCH that a TEAM did not pass inspection, the TEAM’s entire ALLIANCE will receive a RED CARD for that MATCH.

2. Inspect early and practice more. From At The Events...
4.6.1.2 The Filler Line
 Robots in the Filler Line must have passed full inspection;

3. Pneumatics rules (and as answered in the Q&A) allow one solenoid valve per actuator and all air must be vented when the vent valve is opened. <R73> & <R74>

4. Minibots will be inspected separately and will require an inspection for each one used at each event.

5. BOM needs to be complete and accurate and in an electronic form using the FIRST BOM Template, (thumb drive or other portable, USB storage device). It must be viewable in the pit during inspection. Printed copy is preferred, but a laptop is acceptable. Section 4.3.4 is very clear what needs to be included and how to list costs. No BOM=no sticker.

6. Teams may not contaminate the field with lubricants or other substances. If you have chains hanging down from your robot, you will need to find some method of keeping them from rubbing against the carpet during match play.

7. Safety is our first concern. Sharp edges, pointed mechanisms less than 1 square inch in cross section, entanglement hazards all must be eliminated. Participants are in close contact with robots in the pits and in the queue. My pet peeve is tywraps that are improperly trimmed leaving little sharp edges of plastic. I have lost enough blood already.

8. No exposed lasers. I know many of you want to use them for range finders, and aiming devices but they are not allowed.

9. Insulated battery terminals and PD terminals. The battery is capable of supplying welding currents. Yes that equates to metal coming in contact with terminals can weld itself in place and produce high temperatures, with possible battery case failure and fire. If I am inspecting, you will be insulating terminals while I work and will not pass inspection until all batteries are insulated. There is a reason there is a big bump molded into the case of the PD so that dropped tools will not contact both terminals. If the PD is exposed, we will ask you to insulate the terminals.

10. I hope all week two events go smoothly and everyone has a great weekend.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Here's one that has been missed.
Have your Main Breaker visible AND easily accessible. If your robot starts to smoke, wouldn't it be nice if a ref could cut the power quickly?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Sorry to add this out of sequence but...
I highly recommend that you check the First website well in advance of your next event for software and firmware updates. They may not be needed at your next event, but it would be better to have them if/when you might need them. This list might include cRIO firmware, Labview, DS, C++, and Java depending on your implementations. Be prepared for any old thing!

I am surprised more people haven't come on and stressed this so here goes...

Read the Manual!
Don't look out the window of the bus until you have read the latest version of all sections. The Arena is at Rev D, The Game is at Rev M, and The Robot at Rev K. Read the Robot twice.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

OK,
From experience in week 2 events. You were only shipped one pressure gauge in the KOP this year. That does not mean you only need one gauge. Two are required, one to display high pressure and one to display low pressure.

There are rules that apply for off-board compressors so if you choose, those rules also apply. If you don't quite understand the off-board rules, think that the system design must be the same as if everything was on the robot. All of the same parts are required and the same power on test as well. You can have certain parts off board but the compressor must still be controlled by the Crio, pressure switch and Spike and the power must come from the robot battery not a second battery.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Question regarding use of off robot compressors. do we follow the same rules to pre charge the system while you are waiting in queue? We have a rather large reservoir this year and it can take up to 1:30 minutes to charge completely. Can we use an off board system to charge the system and then use the on board system during the match?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

No. All pressure for use on the robot must come from the KOP or equiv compressor running under Crio control using the robot battery.

<R69> Compressed air for the pneumatic system on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor. This compressor may be either the compressor from the KOP, or an equivalent compressor that does not exceed any of the KOP compressor performance specifications (specifically: nominal 12v, 1.03 cfm flow rate, 120psi maximum working pressure). Compressed air shall not come from any other source. Off-board compressors must be controlled and powered by the ROBOT.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

What if their off-board system IS a KOP or equiv compressor running under Crio control using a robot battery?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

It must be as you describe if off-board.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

You can use your onboard compressor to pre charge your system, as long as it is controlled by the cRIO and robot battery.

EDIT
Upon further review
<R69> Compressed air for the pneumatic system on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

That's what we are considering: two batteries, two cRIO's, and two complete pneumatic systems.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

If you have a legal on-board system, there's no room in the rules for having an off-board system too.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Sorry,
But all robot rules apply here. One and only one battery and one and only one Crio.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

OK,
Time to talk about bumpers. It seems most teams are getting bumpers right this year. That's good! However, with the bumper zone low to the floor already, some teams have saggy bumper fabric and bumper covers. Teams can be called on bumpers and bumper parts outside the zone during competition. Please keep checking when you take the field to be sure that the fabric is not hanging down to the floor. This occurs mostly at the corners where the fabric is folded. Also bumper skirts tend to get saggy, you should have some method to tighten up the fabric, i.e. velcro, string, or extra staples as needed. No point in getting to a finals match to find that you are being cited for a bumper zone violation.

It has been reported that some teams that are using the terminal blocks from the KOP are having an issue with reliability. If you are using these blocks, remember that they are meant for a certain size wire. The small gauge wire used in the sensors is likely to pullout of the block. Try stripping an inch of insulation and folding the wire back on itself twice before insertion.

Note to all teams in the coming weeks...
There is no honor in being the last robot to inspect or to miss a match because you waited too long. When you inspect early, you get to practice more by being able to enter the "filler line". Teams that have more practice do better in competition, that is a fact. You also get to try out your minibot. Inspect early!

To rookies and veterans with new mentors...
Please ask the LRI or other experienced mentors before you tear your robot apart. If you take the field with a partially working but driving robot, your alliance partners will thank you. A three on two or a three on one game is no fun to watch or to play. There are lots of experienced people who can help you make changes and not miss matches.

Signage...
Many teams are short changing themselves on signage this year. It is hard to tell what sponsor, school or team name is playing. Be proud of your team and display your colors. The announcers will be able to call out your robot name or school while you play and you will get noticed.

BOM...
Needed in electronic form and be visible in the pit during inspections. Most teams are getting this right as well. Be sure to be accurate in your use of the KOP list as well. First can do electronic searches on the BOM to look for interesting parts and those not used.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

OK,
Time for the next installment with more data from the past week...

Motors: Teams continue to show up with Globe motors, old Fisher Price motors and van door motors. All of these are illegal motors this year. Please check your designs and make sure you are using only one of the 2011 FP motors and neither Globe or van door motors on your 2011 robot.

Crio: Although we cannot check for everything, you must keep conductive material out of your Crio. More teams are reporting issues with Crio reboots and many if not all are due to metallic dust and shavings getting into electronics. Use the gasket intended for your Crio to help keep dust and particles from accumulating inside.

Bumper skirts: While many teams use these, very few are keeping an eye on correct attachment. Covers, bumper material and bumpers in their entirety must remain inside the bumper zone, 1" to 7" above the floor. If your material or skirt drags on the floor or falls below the 1" above the floor, expect the refs to see it and penalize you.
R07
B. The BUMPERS must be located entirely within the BUMPER ZONE when the ROBOT is standing normally on a flat floor, and must remain there (i.e. the BUMPERS must not be articulated or designed to move outside of the BUMPER ZONE).

Minibots: Only Tetrix switches, limit switches and a maximum of two switches sold as "lighting" switches may be used on the minibot. Toggle switches, push button switches, rockers and other switches sold by outlets like Radio Shack are not permitted. If the switch is not normally thought of as one of these, be prepared to show documentation as to it's marketed use as a lighting or limit switch.

Radio power: Must use the five volt regulator supplied in the KOP. If you have connected your radio without using the regulator (i.e.12 volts), expect it to fail in the future. Be sure you have another on hand for replacement at your next event.

Finally, there is some items that are still not legal on FRC robots. Electrical solenoids, other wireless devices including Bluetooth and WiFi, home built pneumatic components, modified pneumatic, electrical or control system components are all illegal.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

The motor situation seems to be a big problem. I had to give at least 3 teams the bad news that their motors were illegal. All of which were completely shocked when I informed them.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

A team next to us in San Antonio used a couple globe motors. It broke my heart to see the poor fellow taking his arm apart.

Thanks for the tips Al! We'll be taking this list to Dallas with us.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

My standard spiel heard by over 100 teams in AZ and LA:

Takes just about the same amount of time it takes to reset the radio :D

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Ok,
Before I get into my final list, there is a problem that is popping up this weekend. Minibot batteries may not be modified. You cannot cut the shrink wrap, separate the cells or otherwise modify any part of the Tetrix battery.

From the Q&A...
Minibot battery modification
Posted by 2011FRC3238 at 01/25/2011 07:25:54 pm
Is it permitted to separate the cells of the minibot battery (keeping the electrical configuration
intact)?
Re: Minibot battery modification
Posted by GDC at 01/31/2011 03:39:37 pm
This would be a violation of R92-C.

C. no more than one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057) except the 20A fuse may be replaced with an equivalent type of lower amperage

Those teams that plan on using the withholding allowance to bring in bumpers...The bumpers are still included in the 30 pound limit.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

OK,
Last installment I hope....
Let's talk about minibot batteries. As I posted earlier, you may not modify any battery including the minibot batteries. There are two types of legal minibot batteries and the difference is simply the color of the shrink wrap. If you purchased your batteries in the last six to eight months, they likely came in black shrink wrap. If you purchased them earlier or bought them from someone who still had older style on the shelf, then the shrink is clear. Both are legal FTC and minibot batteries. The black looks cooler while the clear allows you to see if there is any damage or leaking. Modifying includes removing the connector or adding a different one, cutting the wires, opening the shrink wrap and/or separating the cells.
Battery chargers...
Some teams are using battery chargers that are not intended for either the robot battery or the minibot battery. While there is no specific rule relating to these, we defer to the manufacturer specification for safe battery charging. If you attempt to force charge either battery type by using high current, battery damage, fire and possible personal injury may result. For this reason, any battery charger that is capable of this high current can be banned from the pit area. The minibot batteries are best charged by a smart charger at no more than 900ma made for charging NiMH batteries. The main robot batteries are best charged by smart chargers at 6 amps or less with chargers designed for SLA batteries.
Inspection Checklist...
While I don't anticipate any changes in the rules over the next two weeks, any change will be reflected in an updated Inspection Checklist. We are currently using Rev D of the Robot Inspection Checklist and Rev B of the minibot Inspection Checklist. These are the documents we will be using at Champs if no rules changes are made.
Bumpers...
Always an issue, and we will be checking for construction and alignment, as well as attachment and the use of floppy skirts. Remember this is the big show, there is no excuse for bumpers (and everything that is attached to them) to fall outside of the bumper zone, 1" to 7" above the floor. Refs will be watching.
WPA...
This will be essentially self serve as it was at the regionals. As a reminder, you need to factory reset the DAP-1522 prior to bringing it to the WPA kiosk to reprogram.
Inspections...
Will take place any time the pit is open. That is from 5 PM to 9:30 PM on Wednesday and each day until finals begin on Saturday. Please plan to get inspected Wednesday night or Thursday morning. There is no excuse to miss a match because you are not inspected. All minibots must be inspected as well or they cant be used. Please remember there are specific rules concerning teams that are not inspected. Use the next two weeks to review those rules.
Sharps...
Of course we are concerned about popping tubes, so should you. If your tube handler has sharp edges, or pointed parts, be prepared to correct that during or prior to inspection. We will also be checking for objects and robot parts that could injure participants.
Wiring...
This is one of the most seen and difficult to correct issues that arise each year at Champs. Even if you have a well meaning sponsor who gave you 10,000ft. of green and yellow wire, you can't use it on the robot. The robot rules are very specific as to color code and wire size.
Inspectors and inspections...
Most of the inspection team will have performed inspections during the season and all will have reviewed all the robot rules in Section 4. If an inspector wants you to change something on your robot and you question that change, please ask if a lead inspector could be consulted. Please be sure that you understand the change. I don't want any team to change the wiring on the entire robot when only one wire was illegal. The majority of the inspection team will be present Wednesday night and Thursday through the afternoon. Many of them perform other volunteer duties during match play. We will fall to a skeleton crew once these volunteers start in their other positions. However, any changes you make to your robot during the weekend must be re-inspected. Robots playing or asked to be alternates for the finals matches must be reinspected prior to finals match play. If you suspect you will be in that group, please re-inspect following your last match on Saturday morning. The rules allow any robot to be re-inspected at any time and that includes on the field prior to a match start.

The Championship is a crazy time but also one of the most fun. I hope you have a great weekend if you are going to be there. If you did not qualify this year, I hope to see you next year.

Good Luck everyone!

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

This was not the case at all regionals. I know at least Peachtree had a volunteer operating the WPA kiosk and performing the factory reset before programming.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

The proper procedure for resetting the DAP needs to be posted by the kiosk. If you do the wrong thing, you'll put it in "emergency web server" mode and it'll require a firmware reload to return it to working condition.

To reset the DAP-1522 to factory defaults: apply power, wait a few seconds, hold the reset button for just ten seconds, release it, then wait for the WAN light to stop flashing.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Peachtree had 48 teams. Your Championship division will have more -- something in the high 80s. Doing as Al suggests above will make WPA go faster for everyone.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Sorry if the intentions of my post were unclear. I know that there will be differences in procedure between regionals and Championships, some out of necessity and some because the regional may have been "off script".

The purpose of my post was to highlight that there may be teams that are unfamiliar with the WPA kiosk procedure so proper documentation should be posted if the station will not be staffed by a volunteer.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Kevin,
There will be some assistance, but teams need to be in factory default prior to the programming process as indicated by Alan above.
Al

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

You guys are right, of course.

If every team would just monitor CD 24/7, there might be less confusion about rules, procedures, best practices, etc. Then again, there might be more! :ahh:

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Here are the procedures I used at the Radio Kiosks

1. Power up the radio
2. Switch to Bridge Mode
3. Wait until the orange light on the front of the radio blinks a couple times (about 22 secs)
4. Insert a paper clip into the "Reset" hole on the back of the radio.
5. Hold it there and count to 10
6. Remove the paper clip
7. Watch the lights on the front, they will go out after a moment, then will come back on, wait until the orange light blinks a couple times (about 45 secs)
8. Connect the radio to the Kiosk using the ethernet cable. Plug it into any of the ethernet ports on the back of the radio
9. Enter your team number into the radio kiosk program
10. Press the button on the radio kiosk program to configure the radio
11. Wait until the progress bar fills all the way to the right and it says radio is programmed (about 90 secs)

Don't try to rush the progress. If you follow these steps, it works every time.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Robot Inspectors are there to help you, not hurt you. If we find a problem with your robot, please don't say "It passed at XXXX regional". The inspector may have misread the rules or just missed it. We will do everything to help you out.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I'm sure there's some non-zero probability of an inspector who's never missed anything (clearly NOT me), but the number is so small as to be not worth calculating. We're all human and there's a lot to look for. In my brief (2-year) inspecting career I've seen, among other things, these items that had passed a previous inspection:
* Illegally-supported bumpers last year that passed at least three inspections
* A robot without a pressure relief valve. It wasn't that the valve was in the wrong place -- it wasn't installed, and the students didn't know what it was for when we found it in their parts box.
* A manual vent plug valve that was accessed by reaching through the kicker (last year).
* A main breaker "installed" by hanging it from its wires from the robot superstructure.

I'd be scared to see the list that Al could come up with. The bottom line is that no inspector can assume that any previous inspectors are perfect.

See you on Curie.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Al,

I am confused by your post regarding battery chargers. You state the maximum charge current is 900mA, but the charger that comes in the FTC kit can charge at a 1.5A in one of the settings.

This is the same exact charger as the VEX Smart Charger from the same supplier. The only difference is that the VEX Charger has VEX Blue plastic as opposed to the supplier's standard black.

I am confused because you are going to see one irate ThunderChicken if inspectors try to tell me my VEX chargers are not legal to charge.

Paul

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

So, it is illegal to use a different connector on the minibot?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

yes. I think radio shack has these if you destroyed the one in the tetrix kit. they come as an extension if you need 2 (chop in half and strip)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I believe Al is just making a recommendation. ("The minibot batteries are best charged by a smart charger at no more than 900ma made for charging NiMH batteries.") There's no robot rule this year regarding which chargers are legal.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Yeah, I believe it's just a recommendation also. There have been reports of teams having problem with the batteries when they were charging at 1.8A (CD has a couple of threads about it I think), so many have adopted the 900mA charging setting as a precaution.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Hi Tristan,
Any chance you're inspecting in Newton this year? :)

-John

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Paul,
This is a recommendation for 900 ma (or less) chargers. The higher setting on the supplied charger, produces a lot of heat. I have had reports of teams attempting to use chargers of much higher current. Standard charge for these batteries is normally stated at 1/10 C to 1/3 C or 300 ma to 900 ma for a 5-10 hr charge cycle. Chargers have been reported at some events at currents in excess of 3000 ma. Without temperature feedback from the battery to charger, which is not provided by the Tetrix battery, these chargers can be dangerous as excess gas builds up and temperatures reach the point where burns may occur.

Adam,
The minibot battery can only be repaired with identical components as all other electrical devices.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I think the applicable rule is <R55>, which prohibits tampering with control system components (including batteries) and then lists specific modifications to the control system components that are permitted. Part M permits repairs as follows: "Devices may be repaired, provided the performance and specifications of the component after the repair are identical to those before the repair." [emphasis mine]

As an example, repairing damaged battery connectors might be permitted under <R55> part M, if the connector parts (i.e., AMP Mate-N-Lock style crimp terminals and plastic housings) used for the repair have performance and specifications that are identical to those of the original connectors.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

From the Q&A...

Posted by GDC at 01/19/2011 07:27:13 pm
There is no prohibition against altering components from the Tetrix kit, other than motor
modifications strictly prohibited by Rule <R93> and the battery pack modifications prohibited
by Rule <R92>.

R92
C. no more than one 12V rechargeable NiMH battery pack identical to those supplied in the FTC kit of parts (PN W739057) except the 20A fuse may be replaced with an equivalent type of lower amperage,

Sorry to choose 'identical' from the wrong paragraph.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Would putting a tamiya connector back on return our $200 in modified batteries to "identical"?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Adam,
If that is the connector that was supplied then yes.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I fly electric radio controled airplanes. The smart charger of choice (cheap & cheerful) is the Thunder AC6. We use it to charge our Tetrix batteries. It comes with a Tamiya connector. Being smart it tells you how much charge it takes to bring your batteries back to full. It has a Nimh setting we manually set to 900 mah max. Good news it's on sale now for $43. Here's a link

http://www.hobbypartz.com/thac6smbachw.html

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Chuck,
That is a very interesting looking charger that has lot's of features including progamability for NiMH battery packs. I downloaded the manual and it has some interesting cautions including this one with my corrections in syntax added...

This charger and battery to be charged and
discharged should be set up on a heat-resistant, non-flammable
and non-conductive surface. Never place
them on a car seat, carpet or similar.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

This is a very good caution.
Way back when I used to fly electric R/C airplanes (I still fly planes) and we used NiCad batteries. I made the mistake of charging the battery on the plastic piece, in front of the headlight, of my Dodge 024 Miser. The mistake was leaving the battery unattended. When I got back the battery had melted the plastic bumper :yikes:

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I have a request. Can the inspectors urge teams to make their robot radios visible. It is a lot easier to diagnose connection problems on the field if the lights on the radio are visible. It can make the difference in maintaining match timing.

Mark

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Having volunteered both as an LRI and an FTA, I can really appreciate Mark's concern above. Field volunteers will be doing their best to maintain a quick (~6 minute) match pace, and every second spent diagnosing non-communicative robots will cut into that goal.
--------
The excerpt below is from Championship Information A-Z (p. 11)(emphasis mine)

How will a team get a valid inspection sticker on their robot? If the only way to get the "valid" sticker is by passing full robot inspection, then it appears that teams must complete robot inspection before they can participate in practice matches. Or, will robot inspectors be putting "valid" inspection stickers on robots that have been partially inspected, and are deemed safe enough for practice matches?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

From the Robot Inspection Checklist on the FIRST website:


Emphasis mine

So if the teams run through their own inspection, and inspectors follow the checklist, we should be good.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I think the Filler Line is copied and pasted from regional events, but the Championship rules were changed to require full inspection before even practice matches.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Please note that the A-Z guide is not the game manual... can anyone point to some place in the game manual that states you have to be inspected before playing practice rounds at Championships?

For the Regionals, it seems that this is governed by <T03>:
You can play practice matches without being fully inspected because you don't receive qualification, ranking, or Coopertition points for those matches. Likewise, you can't play qualification matches without being inspected for the same reason - you earn those points in qualification matches.

Section 5.6 clearly states:
(emphasis mine)

Wouldn't that apply to inspections and practice/qualification round eligibility?

I know some Regionals have had confusion over whether or not teams could play practice rounds without being fully inspected (in fact, I've heard it announced by the pit admin myslef)... If at all possible, we should try to avoid that same confusion and make sure it's perfectly clear whether or not we need to be inspected before taking the field for next Thursday's practice matches.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I'm thinking the statement that each division plays 'exactly' like a regional only applies to the portions that are relevant to the competition. The practice matches are not part of the formal regional competition. With the number of teams requiring inspection, there really does need to be an emphasis on getting inspections done as soon as possible so that all bots and mini-bots can be inspected before qualifications begin. Obviously there are many aspects of regionals and CMP divisions that are different, outside of the formal competition aspects, practice matches would be one of those. Other examples would be queuing logistics, whether mascots are allowed near the field, time allowed for sensor calibration, etc.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Although there are several rules relating inspections, this one from "At the Events" is the one I believe takes precedence in practice matches...

Teams may practice on the first day of the event without completing the inspection process; however, if field personnel deem a robot unsafe, it will not be allowed to practice until the unsafe condition is fixed;

Field personnel will be able to contact inspection areas in each division, inspectors will walk the pit when not otherwise occupied and LRIs will make spot checks both in the pit and on the field during the weekend. Do not be afraid if you see a black vest checking over your robot. We like to see new ideas as much as the next mentor. However, often we are reassuring a ref that something on your robot is in fact in compliance. We do that all the time.

Also, one of us may tell you to take care of a drooping bumper skirt or loose bumper hardware or that we noticed something else. We want you to play as long as you can and that is why we are watching. You don't want to be DQ'd for something that we can have you fix before it becomes an issue.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

For reference, the passage that Al quoted above is from the Manual, section 4.9.4 Inspection.

Section 4 of the Manual is a summary of what to expect At the Events:One of my personal favorites in Section 4 is this:(emphasis mine)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Thanks, Rich. That last quote reminded me that LRIs from regional events can be wearing their black vests and hopefully all inspectors will have an identifying hat as you remember from regionals. I will be wearing mine if I remember them.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I have also been asked to remind teams that are shipping from Bag and Tag events (Bag in Crate for Champs) that B&T rules still apply. Teams have been told they will not be able to unbag their robots until an inspector has approved their Robot Lock-Up Form. Getting these teams signed off will be inspectors top priority at pit open on Wednesday. Teams cannot work on their robot until the paperwork is complete and an inspector has given the authorization to open the bag. A B&T list will be in the LRIs hands soon for use next week.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Thanks for this note AL. It is good to know that inspectors will have this as a priority. As a B&T team with important work to do on our robot, we will be very anxious to get a visit from an inspector as soon as possible.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Al,

At last year's Championships, I was doing spot inspections on the field to make sure all cables were attached, driver stations were booted, etc. to keep things running on the field. I found one team using a spare battery plugged into their robot in order to charge their pneumatics without pulling power from their competition battery which was already installed on the robot. I objected to this on the grounds that it violates the spirit of the rule which says all power must come from ONE battery. Other inspectors disagreed, saying it was a good practice to extend the on-board battery.

How would you call this one?

Dr. Bob

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

<R35> Items specifically prohibited from use on the ROBOT include:

A. any battery other than, or in addition to, the one primary battery permitted by Rule <R34> the MINIBOT battery, or a battery contained in a COTS computing device

I'm not sure if this rule would apply to a team using an external battery to maintain their pneumatics.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

We talked about this before in this thread. I had the same thoughts you did. I don't think we resolved the issue and Q&A never got back to me.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Bob,
There is no rule that prevents a team from charging pneumatics off the field at this time. I oppose it as an unsafe practice knowing that many teams deploy software while in queue. The chance for a unexpected pneumatic operation while in queue can be disastrous for one of our participants. I know that some venues have imposed some restrictions but there is no universal rule covering this. I would prefer to go with Wayne's quoted rule above and it is the basis for the rules governing 'off board' compressors.
That being said, I believe the use of a second battery pushes the intent of the one battery rule. If the battery is used without Crio control of pneumatics then that is a violation of several rules and an unsafe practice.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

What would be the difference between this and doing a full systems checkout in the pit, including charging your pneumatics, then changing out the battery prior to leaving for a match? I would say that the one battery rule (and any rule) applies during the match - it all the rules apply between matches then you couldn't take the bumpers off, right?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I asked in the Q&A before what takes precedence, since I always thought that the manual was the bible regardless of other communications. I asked in regards to last year's last minute change to having inspections on Wednesday and what could be done in the pits on Wednesday, since the manual had not been changed and the notifications were per a FIRST email and Bill's Blog. The response was that the latest official communication in any form from FIRST takes precedence, so in this case that would be the A-Z guide.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I had a team that charged their robot using an off board compressor and battery. They also had a compressor on the robot. According to the rules a team can only use 1 battery, 1 compressor and the off board compressor rules apply. IE the compressor must be controlled by the CRio. I cannot see were the question about these rules comes from.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

the question really is: When does the robot become the ROBOT? Most teams that pre-charge their robot take the position the the ROBOT begins when the starting buzzer sounds. The GDC is rather quiet on this point.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

wilson,
In this particular case, the safety of the participants is a prime concern. Pre-Charging using the on board battery under Crio control insures that the max allowable pressure on this system is always maintained. A team that charges their pneumatics without Crio control with a second battery not only risks injury, but also has the ability to charge at a higher pressure than their opponents. Safety is forever, not just on the field.
I wish I had a nickel for every team that has told me that they think it is OK to connect the compressor to a battery and then disconnect it when they think it reaches pressure. I could buy a better laptop with that change.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

You are completely correct. The original question stated the battery "was plugged into the robot" to charge pneumatics. I was assuming the compressor was under cRIO control. I see a lot of things that I would consider unsafe every year and pre-changing robots in the queue lines one of those things. I think there should be a place to do those sorts of things right before you take the field. An on deck circle perhaps? But this not the place to discuss this.

Back to your regularly scheduled Inspection Tips thread. :)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

In the case I mentioned above, where a team was using an auxiliary battery to charge their pneumatics in line, it was done in a safe manner, since they were only substituting the back-up battery for their game battery by plugging it into the connector on the robot. Thus everything was under cRIO control. No problem there.

The concern I had is that the rules say all power for the robot must come from ONE battery. In this case, it wasn't. Part of the energy stored on the robot in the form of air pressure had been placed there by a second battery.

Now I know teams can charge in the pits if done safely, and they can swap batteries at any time before the match starts, but in this case, it appeared to be an instance of a direct violation of the intent of the rule, if not the rule itself.

Certainly, there are more pressing issues for us to be concerned about, particularly those dealing with safety, but I thought I would get some more opinions on this one.

I'll miss Championships this year due to pressing family issues. Hope to see you all there next year.

Dr. Bob

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

It is possible to violate the intent of a rule without violating any rules. Unfortunately, FRC does not have a rule like this gem from the SAE Aero Design rulebook: "The violations of the intent of a rule will be considered a violation of the rule itself." This led to a Q&A ruling a couple years back about something being a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules.

As such, while charging pneumatics with one battery and competing with another may be against the spirit of the rules, it is impossible to call a violation of the letter of the rules. (Also note that if it were a rule, it would be impossible to enforce.)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

If it were a rule, I think the vast majority of teams would "enforce" it on themselves, and would take a single-battery energy limit into account when designing their robots. For safety, I would prefer a rule requiring robots to be carried onto the field completely de-energized; i.e., main breaker off and air release valve open.

However, this year we will play by this year's rules.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

That would make autonomous awfully boring.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Actually the rule says it needs to be easily accessible.
Visibility is just a recommendation.

If my robot starts to smoke, I don't want a head ref anywhere near it.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

<R34> The only legal source of electrical energy for the ROBOT/HOSTBOT during the competition
is one MK ES17-12 12VDC non-spillable lead acid battery, OR one EnerSys NP 18-12
battery, as provided in the 2011 KOP. Batteries integral to and part of a COTS computing
device are also permitted (i.e. laptop batteries), provided they’re only used to power the
COTS computing device.

<R35> Items specifically prohibited from use on the ROBOT include:
A. any battery other than, or in addition to, the one primary battery permitted by Rule <R34>
the MINIBOT battery, or a battery contained in a COTS computing device,


One could argue that it is not in the spirit of the rules since energy on-board the robot during a match is coming from two separate batteries. However, as long as both batteries are running through the PD/cRIO and not more than one at a time is hooked up, I do not believe to be a letter of the rules violation.

As a side note, if you are drawing so much energy off the battery that you need to swap them out after charging your compressed air system, you may need to rethink part of your design.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Could we find a way to have robots run compressors while we wait for them to synch with the FMS?

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Allowing code to execute without a DS link would render the system watchdog worthless.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Absolutely correct!

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I don't think the teams doing this are doing it because their robots drain battery that fast, they probably are just trying to be more competitive and keep that much more energy in their battery if there is no penalty for doing so.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

In the IFI world this was the normal mode of charging. Get onto the field, turn your robot on, charge the tanks with either on board or off board compressor and step away.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

In OCCRA, we connect the compressor switch to an automotive relay which runs the pump. The pressure switch is still controlling the pressure in the system, just through a relay instead of the Cortex. That way, we can bring the robots onto the field empty, turn on the power switch, and let them pump up while team introductions and vex auto are running.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

How nice of John to look out for the health and safety of our volunteers.

(I think he's really afraid someone is going to whip out the fire extinguisher and make sure the entire robot—not just the self-extinguishing speed controller—is good and dead.)


At SVR, I had a conversation about better practices for the pneumatic system, and one very reasonable thing that came up was the idea that it's not really important from a safety perspective that the cRIO control the compressor (via robot code). Granted, the rules are the rules, so we have no such option for this year—but it would seem quite feasible to find a pressure switch with the appropriate current rating and triggering characteristics (e.g. not prone to oscillating on the margin of the pressure limit), and wire it inline with the compressor and power distribution block. (This could also be accomplished with a big, dumb relay and the existing switch.) For those teams that simply want their compressor to pressurize the tanks whenever they're low, this solution is simple and robust.

In fact, it's safer than the current implementation: there's no possibility of bad code causing the robot to ignore the pressure switch. It also renders the overpressure valve redundant to an even greater extent. (Which is great, because the overpressure valves are a hassle to set up properly, and they're often provided in the wrong configuration. Not to mention that they're not really rated for numerous cycles.)

With a relieving regulator on the low pressure side, actuators cannot overpressurize the high side. So the only way to overpressurize is via the compressor, which would be hardwired into a simple device designed to prevent that, rather than a feedback system with numerous other dependencies. It's those dependencies that give us the requirement that the off-robot compressor be controlled by the robot. Eliminate this dependency chain, and you solve the most insane part of the off-robot compressor problem—which, by the way, is as ridiculous as controlling a battery charger with the robot: sure you could, but why?

To top it all off, make sure to give teams the option to install feedback control, if they desire, by installing a pressure transducer in addition to the built-in pressure switch.

This would allow the tanks to charge whenever the robot is on. In some configurations, this could result in robot parts moving as soon as the switch is flipped, but that's not really any different from robots that use electromagnets (custom circuits). In fact, robots that leak air have the exact same theoretical problem: the lack of pressure could cause robot parts to move uncommanded...and I don't see leaky robots being banned. (Though maybe they should be....)

Note that the above presupposes that the compressor, even if off-robot, is powered by the robot (and therefore benefits from the hardwired pressure switch). I'd even be willing to entertain non-robot-based sources of air, provided that that there was an appropriate overpressure valve installed on the robot, and that the delivery device contained a gauge (and a regulator or other relief valve, as necessary) demonstrating to any observer that it was delivering no more than the maximum allowed pressure to the robot. And of course, whatever this device was, it would need to satisfy venue rules—so don't bring in a floor-mounted shop compressor.¹


That's a longstanding annoyance of mine as well. Obviously you can't enforce the entire rulebook based on the state of a robot undergoing maintenance. As best I can reckon, the rules are unambiguously intended to apply during an inspection, and during gameplay. (If it's a full inspection, then all of the robot rules should apply; if a partial one, then only the relevant ones. If it's a game, everything applies.) This means, as a practical matter, that some rulings have to be made as the robot is placed into the starting configuration before a match: it's not illegal until you try to play with it. Until that time, teams have plausible deniability with regard to configuration issues.

Although I hesitate to frame it in these terms, getting "inspected" (i.e. a partial inspection regarding one violation in particular) right before a match is probably preferable to the inspector reporting the same violation to the referee during or following the match. If before, you've got a moment to fix the problem—in this case, simply dump the offending air. (In theory, there does exist the possibility that the team can't fix a problem, and therefore the robot could be prohibited from taking the field.²) By contrast, if the issue is reported during or immediately after the match, the sanctions from the gameplay section could be imposed (starting with a <G30> penalty, and taking it from there).

I also note that as a practical matter, inspectors will exercise discretion as to what violations would merit either of the above responses, as opposed to those violations which are minor enough to address after the match.


I don't like the sound of that. They might as well have phrased it, "read our minds, because we're too lazy to think about the consequences of what we've written"....


¹ Speaking of venue rules, since compressed gas cylinders are prohibited (to teams), that neatly rules out scuba tanks and the hassles involved with evaluating 3 000 lb/in² regulators. I sometimes wonder if that's the hazard that FIRST was trying to avoid, when it banned all non-compressor sources of air.
² It's my considered opinion that the 3-way red card for showing up for a match having an uninspected robot (<T03>) should only apply to a robot that did not ever pass inspection at the current event. The rules aren't clear about it, but that's a fair reading that gives the benefit of the doubt to teams, while maintaining what I would guess to be the primary intention of the rule. So, in my unofficial opinion, if you ever did find yourself in a situation where an inspector deemed the robot illegal right before a match, at least you could participate without completely ruining things for your alliance. (Best to have a pre-match conversation with the head referee and that inspector, if this ever comes up.)

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

+rep for using footnotes!

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Not all power. Just all electrical power.

I don't see anything wrong about having the pneumatic system charged before connecting the battery you're going to use for the match. I don't even understand why it's controversial.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I think this controversial issue in this thread is more the ability (or lack thereof) of teams to bring a second battery and pneumatic system in order to charge the one on the robot before the match without draining their match battery. The fact that pneumatic system is charged before a match is perfectly legal. The illegal issue is the using of a second battery pre-match.

(emphasis mine)
These rules disallow the use of any other battery than the one on the robot. Therefore, it is illegal to charge pneumatic systems with any other battery pre-match. It would be legal to have the system charged before entering into the queue line EDIT: starting a match , but past that point, it would become illegal.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I don't see where your assumption that the rules start applying to the robot when it enters the queue line and not before is derived from.

I am much more inclined to agree with the interpretation that the rules apply to the robot during inspection and during the match itself.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

My use of the queue line in that example was more of an arbitrary point of when it becomes illegal. That isn't specified in the rules anywhere, and it probably wasn't a good decision to include that as a point. It just seemed to me that upon entering the queue line, it becomes much more problematic for a team to backcharge their pneumatics (my team got stopped for doing this in queue last year in Atlanta). Anyway, I'm sorry for using my own assumptions instead of the rules.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I'm pretty sure that you guys that are making up your own rules about the robot queue should be restricted to ONE battery for the COMPETITION as the rule clearly states. :ahh:

I'm pretty accepting of pneumatic energy being listed separately from electrical energy as a separate allowable source.
And I'm very sure that the intent of the one battery rule is solely to prevent us from driving around during a match being actively powered by two or more 12v batteries.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

What happened to not lawyering the rules?

It is quite clear the rules mean that DURING the MATCH power can only come from one battery.

It is not saying that at any point in time, all non electrical stored energy on your robot must have been generated by the battery that ends up on the robot during the match.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

By <R01> there are 3 non-electrical sources of energy allowed on the robot at the start of a match.
Each source of energy is given equal ranking with all the others. Electrical does not rule over any of the others.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

By this logic all spings, surgical tubing etc. would have to be extended by use of a battery (never mind the competition battery). That means designing and building special motor driven mechanisms purely to pull a spring or piece of surgical tubing into a starting configuration, rather than do it manually.

The more parsimonious approach is to take <R01> as written and accept any (safe) original source of energy to be converted to the allowable stored energy devices.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Not being very well versed in pneumatics, this thread has certainly taken an educational turn!

Personally, I don't have a problem with teams using a battery to charge pneumatics, and then a different battery to run the match - I think that is clearly within the rules.

However, I do have to acknowledge the potential safety aspect involved here... Turning on a robot while in line to charge pneumatics only provides a chance for mechanisms to act unexpectedly (as someone accidentally leans on controls, for example). Thus far, all of the systems I've seen have a single storage portion, that vents to the pneumatic solenoids to be controlled - it would seem simple to put a manual valve in place there to manually turn off the working portion of the pneumatic system, and allow safe storage. Then once on the field and in position, that manual valve could be turned, allowing the system to "go live" in a safe way - much the same as safety pins and lockouts that teams put in place during transport and pull once they are on the field.

Thoughts? This could be a nice safety feature...

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

the pressure would drop as soon as you connected the two halves so you would start with less air.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

The logic that another battery cannot be used to compress air before a match would imply that you must drain any residual pressure left from a previous match, or drain any pressure left from testing or practice, before you install the battery for the next match. That's just silly. How is charging the air pressure any different than manually cocking a spring or raising a counterweight before a match? Stored energy is allowed. There is no rule that says "all stored energy in a robot must have originated from the battery that is about to be used in competition."

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

The issue isn't whether the battery is switched after running the compressor; it is whether an off-board battery/compressor setup is used to pressurize the system. According to the rules, the compressor must be controlled by the cRio via the pressure switch....thus only 1 battery can be used....the battery on the robot. You certainly can maintain the pressure in the tanks after switching the battery.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

What about a setup that allows the Anderson connector (properly hooked up to the main circuit breaker and the power distribution board) to be plugged into a battery that is not actually residing within the robot? In this case, you could have a battery sitting in the robot, ready to go, and one sitting next to the robot, powering everything (cRio, Compressor, etc) while the pneumatics charge... then unplug that battery and plug in the one that's already on the robot. That is the typical practice that is being discussed here.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Eagle,
As the rules continuously relate to "the Anderson Power Products (APP) connector" the GDC has ruled in the past that means that only one shall battery connector may be on the robot.
As answered here...

Posted by 2011FRC2723 at 01/17/2011 11:32:02 am
Is it legal to have two anderson clip leads on one battery so that the battery can still be
plugged into the robot and be charging at the same time? If so I would put the braker on both
of the leads so I can turn one off while using the other.
Re: Battery Connection
Posted by GDC at 01/19/2011 07:36:12 pm
No. This would be a violation of Rule <R37>.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I actually like this idea. I know we are going to catch a lot of flak for the weight it adds, but it is a nice safety feature.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

I completely agree with this, and didn't intend for my statement to be taken otherwise. There is nothing wrong, however, with having a single Anderson connector on the robot with leads long enough that it can be plugged into a battery sitting next to the robot for pneumatics charging, and then unplugged from that battery and (using the same Anderson connector) plugged into the competition battery, which has already been inserted and secured to the robot.

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

Your point is contradicted by your own excerpts. R01-b says energy may come from stored compressed air. R34 says the rule applies "during the competition."

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

That needs a huge "remove before flight" tag. Otherwise, I think it's obvious what teams are going to forget to do....

Re: Al's Annual Inspection Thread
 

The necessary part is simply a plug valve similar to the system dump valves already in use. For the ~4 oz it costs is weight, far more is gained in terms of safety.