Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Don't worry if MILWAUKEE tools are banned you can always DeWALT which are much better anyway.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Greg, how could you have let this thread go to 44 45 posts, before putting that one in? :rolleyes:

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

I don't know about power tools, but we lost power in our pit at least twice while we were charging batteries, with no drills or anything running. I don't think it's a venue problem, because the regional has always been at the US Cellular Arena, and it's never happened to us before.

We weren't aware of the rule banning hacksaws, and if our safety captain knew, he didn't tell us. Nobody called us on cutting some things down with a saw either.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

This was posted today on Bill's Blog http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

"I know there was a miss-communication in Milwaukee last weekend and want everyone to know that FRC encourages the use of safe bench top tools that can be carried in by one person. (See the 2011 FRC Administrative Manual section 4.9.8.) If you encounter a miss-communication at any FRC events in the future, please turn to the 2011 Manual first, then with rule in hand, discuss the problem with the event volunteer. If you cannot come to an agreement, go to the Event Manager or FTA both of whom can contact FIRST HQ if they can’t resolve the issue themselves."

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

But it made setting up pits even more unsafe because people were balancing boxes to get up to the top. Maybe the safety captains weren't listening when they told us at the meeting about the ladder at Pit Admin for all teams to borrow. We used it to set up our pit.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Well, then, good to have this clarified for future regionals, even if it is a bit late for WI.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!!! Please excuse this rant but would someone somewhere in some position of authority tell FIRST HQ to GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER on this issue!!

This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. A few years ago there was a similar incident with "miscommunication" regarding power tools at the St. Louis Regional. Fortunately they got it resolved prior to the Wisconsin Regional. Unfortunately those at the St. Louis Regional had to suffer. I feel those of us at the Wisconsin Regional received a dose of the same medicine this year.

As to what was said/done about this issue at the WI regional, I talked with a whole host of individuals from the UL Safety Inspectors (hats off to these guys for the crap they put up with!!) to robot inspectors to the regional chair and on and on. They all gave me the same response - "The ruling came from FIRST HQ." If that's the case, then there are SERIOUS communication issues at FIRST HQ because this blog post does not jive with what we were told last Thursday.

According to the Bill's Blog, "If you encounter a miss-communication at any FRC events in the future, please turn to the 2011 Manual first, then with rule in hand, discuss the problem with the event volunteer. If you cannot come to an agreement, go to the Event Manager or FTA both of whom can contact FIRST HQ if they can’t resolve the issue themselves." THAT'S WHAT THEY DID!!! They contacted HQ as a last resort and we still couldn't use the tools.

Bottom line - someone should look into how this happened to make sure it doesn't happen again! First time it happens (St. Louis) - okay, minor issue, no foul, let's get it fixed. When it happens again (Milwaukee - the town, not the tool!), we have a problem! It goes beyond frustrating!

Please, someone, explain to me how this happens!

Sean

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

My understanding, after talking to people post-event, is that one or more people at the event completely misunderstood section 4.9 of the manual. They read 4.9.7 as what teams can use in the pits, they somehow completely missed 4.9.8. When teams complained, they asked FIRST specifically about the wording of 4.9.7 with respect to insurance, etc to be sure they were interpreting it correctly, which FIRST verified. So according to these people, FIRST just confirmed their understanding of the rules, that teams cannot have "machine shops" without insurance. They were now 100% certain that FIRST agreed with their interpretation and no amount of discussion or rereading of the rules would change their ruling.

Miscommunication? Yes. Anything teams at the event could have done about it? No. Inexcusable? Yes.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

There's getting to be enough regionals around now that a lot of teams have a choice of where to go. If you're unhappy with how the regional in Milwaukee was run, then vote with your dollars and don't go there next year. You're paying several thousand dollars to purchase a regional experience - make sure you get the best deal for your money!

For people on regional planning committees, they need to start realizing that the regional "market" is becoming more competitive and they need to compete to get teams to show up. Just like a business, they need to make sure they are providing good customer service. Even when presented with the proper rules, it seems like multiple people in the chain of command at Milwaukee ignored them. Perhaps the planning committee needs to reconsider key position assignments next year or they will risk having teams not come back (I'm sure there are teams that will remember this screwup and given a choice will choose to go somewhere else).

Also, other regionals in the area should take note, and ensure they have the right people in the right jobs. Then, they should start promoting this fact to teams as a way to lure teams to their event and away from poorly-run regionals.

Competition usually works to improve most other products, why not apply that model to the regional concept? It's already happening anyway whether people care to admit or not.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

From the way I understand things, none of our registration actually goes directly to the regionals we attend. FIRST may bail out regionals that can't come up with the quarter of a million that it takes to run one of these events on their own, but in general, no registration dollars go to a regional.

I can't see how we can really "vote with our dollars" other than to participate in a different program altogether. (Which is not what I'm suggesting.)

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

This is really the only way one can express disapproval for how a regional does things in a matter that gets people to take notice.

Of course, this means these regionals are the last to fill up, so they might be the only ones left... :rolleyes: just kidding

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

As a customer, I don't care. That's a problem between FIRST and the regional. I paid $X000 to attend that regional, that's the important part.

Regionals need to attract teams to keep themselves alive. If they don't get enough teams, then FIRST may not allow them to be an official event anymore, or the venue may not take in enough $$$ from food sales and not allow the regional to come back, or sponsors may back out. I agree that the leverage isn't as great as if the money went direct to the regional, but it's really the only influence you have as a team. I guess another way to think of it is "voting with your (lack of) presence" instead of dollars. Regionals need teams to survive.

It also comes back to my first sentence - I'm paying good money to attend that regional. I want a good product for that money. Since all regionals cost the same amount, if one isn't doing a good job then the best use of my money is to go somewhere else.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Well, not really. The Wisconsin Regional Competition (like all FRC regionals of which I am aware) is not a business and it is planned and executed nearly completely by volunteers. If teams go elsewhere and the number of teams that attend the regional decrease it only leads to a reduction in support for the regional likely killing it in the end. The regional is run by the FRC community for the FRC community.

The only way to make the regional and your experience better is to actively try to make it better. One of the easiest ways to do so is to provide feedback to those that are responsible for putting on the regional competition. Luckily we have a forum for that as every year the regional planning committee holds a "Team Forum" usually mid may to gather feedback on the regional.

This was obviously the result of poor communications and a failure in the issue escalation process. Let our new regional director (Maggie) and the regional planning committee what you thought about the regional good, bad, or indifferent.

See you there.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Before this discussion gets too far into bashing the Milwaukee Regional or the committee, be advised, this issue was a misunderstanding/misreading of the rules, not the direct action of the regional or it's volunteers. A question was raised regarding the use of power tools and ladders. The shear number of power tools brought in became a concern to someone and when a team showed up trying to bring in a 20' extension ladder, ladders were questioned. When teams questioned the ruling, the wrong section of "At The Events" was read and First was asked about the meaning of the incorrectly quoted section involving "team sponsored mobile machine shops". First, of course, responded to the question asked. Until everyone was pointed to the correct area of the manual, things were confused and inconsistent. For the small bump in the road that this produced, many volunteers took a lot of unnecessary heat.

The Milwaukee Regional is a fine event, run by caring volunteers who really do a nice job. They have taken steps to correct issues, and insure that these misunderstandings do not take place at other events you might attend. There is not one person on the committee or volunteer staff that I would not want to work with again. They are a great bunch of folks.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Well said Al; I agree completely.

I admit that I was flustered a bit at the event on Thursday, but after finding out the background story of what really happened to cause this I felt bad for some of the committee members. I probably can't say much, but so that others know: most of the committee members agreed with you guys and understood the rules and were displeased with the ruling. However - everyone reports to someone else, and they had to do what they were ordered to do.

Furthermore, I think the regional (as a whole) was incredibly successful. With the exception of delayed game play on Thursday and the issue discussed in this thread, the event flowed very smoothly without any apparent hitches. If there were any, the planning committee and volunteers did a great job handling them as they went unnoticed.

The Wisconsin regional has been - and will likely continue to be - one of the most competitive and most fun regionals my team will attend.