MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

We are being told here that we arent allowed to use our table top tools (belt sander, bandsaw, drill press). All teams are being told we have to go 2 blocks off site to use a machine shop. It is also specifically stated in the rules that we can use the tools I listed above. Has this happened at any other regionals?

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Have you brought out the rule book?

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Yes we have. We have shown them the rule book and they agree that the rule book says we can use them but they still say we cant. Can they have a rule change without a team update? It also appears to us that not all teams are notified. If the teams were notified we would have planned accordingly. Also teams at other regionals that were allowed to use these tools have an unfair advantage over all the teams here that cannot.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

So they agree that it is in the rules but you can't have them? There is something seriously wrong with that.

Good luck, just remember to remain cool.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Before anyone jumps the gun - who is telling you that, and how are they telling you that. Are they venue officials or FIRST officials?

In addition, I will point out that this is hardly unique. Two years ago at the Kettering district our row in the pits (and ONLY our row in the pits) was told we were not allowed to use any power tools because our circuit was not high enough capacity. At the same time, the pit rows in front and behind us were happing grinding / cutting / sawing away.

Rule 4.9.8, Section 4 of the administrative manual explicity allows the tools you mentioned, however, I'm guessing that the venue rules over ride - they have in the past. In which case, every team will be in the same situation. Unfortunately, that ANY venue rule (which is likely driven by safety or liability reasons) is going to override a FIRST rule. The real question is whether FIRST vetted the location and was told you could use the tools or not.

In short, getting excited isn't going to help much. I wouldn't like the situation either, but I think immediately contacting FIRST HQ or going through the official FIRST rep on site will be the quickest way to get it resolved. I wish you luck!

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Tom is most likely correct. In all cases, FIRST has to bend to the venue-- and some don't allow things of that nature to be operated within their premises. It's unfortunate, but you simply have to adapt.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

We were told we couldn't use it by a FIRST official. She told us that she had been contacted by somebody high up in FIRST and that they were not being allowed. (shouldn't this apply to every regional then?) We requested the name of who had told her this but she has yet to get that to us. The FIRST safety officials have also requested that the drill presses / band saws / sanders be removed from the venue.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Just out of curiosity, where is "here"?

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

1625 is in Milwaukee at the Wisconsin Regional this weekend.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Does your team have a vehicle at your disposal? Go out to Home Depot or any rental company and rent a small inverter generator. It will probably cost about $50 a day. Stick all the tools in the back of a van/SUV/car. If you need a part done just run out to your work-car and buzz it off. If venue or FIRST staff still take issue, park accross the street off the property and they have no governance over you.

Red tape is easy to work around given some creativity and scissors.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Venue rules, insurance rules, state rules, municipality rules, FIRST rules...

Adapt or die.

It's not ideal, but it's what happens. Do what you can with what you can when you can, and don't be afraid to ask other teams for help if something like this puts a golem in your gears.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

I remember when we went through this a couple of years ago. I guess we all thought that it was a moot point after the rules explicity allowed it.

If these truly are FIRST employees... I would be surprised. They should know the rules... especially after they are shown them.....
99% of FIRST volunteers are by and large great to work with... BUT we have all run across one or two from time to time that seem to have a control issue. Don't get me started......

I suspect someone is using FIRST as a reason...

If it is venue thing... so be it.. but it would have been prudent to tell teams this before they got to the event...this is the same as warning teams that their pits are going from 10 X 10 to 8 X 8 or something..

Is this a new event? New volunteers? New Venue?

I hope things work out for you... the machine shop guys are usually pretty good from my experience with them....

Good luck on the field!!

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Sorry to hear this and hope things get fixed for you guys. However does anyone think this will be happening at any other regionals?

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

doh! "MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS" means the city of Milwaukee, not the Milwakee brand of table top tools.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Squirrel
I made the same mistake...
Read Milwaukee as a brand of tools..

double doh..

:0)

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

y'all weren't the only ones :p

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

This has to be a venue rule. Very weird. FIRST would have sent out a mass stating otherwise. As week 2 begins, can I please ask all of you to PLEASE PLEASE be aware of what you are doing in the pits. We had 2 near misses at Kettering in week 1. Teams that have those large arms are testing them out and some aren't being aware of the surroundings. Remember safety glasses at ALL times in the pits.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

This isn't true FIRST wide at all. We are happily running our band saw and drill press in the pits and many teams at WPI have made use of both of these.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Is this the first year for the Wisconsin Regional at US Cellular Arena?

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Nope, it's been there every year. This has never been a rule before, including the three times 1625 has attended.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

In addition to benchtop tools, we were told that teams couldn't use stepladders as well. Some teams were not allowed to carry theirs in to the arena.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

The unfortunate thing about this is that they took away the ladders because of safety reasons and when we were walking through the pits, you should have seen what people were standing on instead of the proper and safe tool.....a ladder! Example: saw one team standing on a cart with four wheels to hang their banner. RIDICULOUS!!!!:eek:

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

We have not yet gotten the detailed instructions on machine shop/tool use for next week's St. Louis Regional at the Chaifetz Arena, but my guess is that it will be the same as the last 2 years: no 'power tools' in the pit (cordless drill is ok). All machining has to be taken to the machining desk, they send it with a volunteer via golf cart to a facility 2 blocks away for the work then return it back to the team. This is probably the smallest (field size/reg season) facility that we've been to for FIRST, so I'm not sure if that is part of the reasoning?

When the St. Louis Regional was at the Family Arena, there was usually a full size tractor trailer filled with equipment and volunteers from NASA to do the machining for us and they were ok with tools in the pit.

I would think each venue could set their own rules for food/drink/tools..

DeAnna

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

As a member of the Wisconsin Regional Planning Committee, please know that these comments will be discussed at length before our next event.

Personally, I was not aware that this was happening or I would have persued this myself during the event. Many good points from the teams concerning ladders and the use of tools and the reasons that we have them.

It was a good regional nonetheless.

NOTE: This is NOT the first time this regional was held at the US Cellular Arena.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

We were told we couldn't even use a hacksaw in the pit at the Wisconsin Regional without getting permission. Some teams were apparently not told/aware of this. So, I am not sure exactly what was up. I do know that because teams could not use the appropriate tools for the job in the pits, I saw a lot of unsafe things going on. For instance, teams standing on objects to set up there pits instead of ladders.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

In the meeting for safety captains, they said that SOME tools were banned but not things like power drills. They said if your tool was in question to ask one of them as they were the ones setting the rules. They also said that they had a tool shop for all teams to use. I guess it's a little late for this post though.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Could you please be a bit more specific as to what exactly was banned besides ladders and band saws if only for clarification?

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

That is news too me. We had our sawzall, power drills, heat gun, box cutters, and dremel. The UL Safety guys liked our pit safety so much that we were runner up to the safety award, so they must not have had a problem with our tools.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

They didn't specify any but they just said that small hand tools are acceptable but nothing like a power miter saw. Like I said before, they said if any tool wa in question to come to the safety judges and ask if it was okay.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Wow, who told you that? We used a hacksaw to cut some item.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

'Sigh' Hopefully this is resolved and clarified for next year...

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Yeah. The ladder thing took us off gaurd because we have a pit that needs a ladder to be set up so we borrowed the ladder that pit admin had for use to teams in our situation.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

We also have a pit needing a ladder, so we improvised by standing on a wooden box which is less safe than a ladder I would think.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Yeah. In the meeting, they annouced that if you needed one you could ask pit admin for one. They had one for teams to borrow so we just used theirs(which was the same as the one we have)

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

If that's the case and they were letting some teams use their ladder, then why did they not let anyone bring more in?

Argh... I doubt I'll ever understand...

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

That was my question. They even had the announcer anounce that a team needed a ladder just after the announcement that ladders weren't allowed!

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Our safety captain informed of us we couldn't use a hacksaw after a safety meeting. I had him go ask to double check and he came back saying we couldn't use one. I do not know who he asked to double check, so I can not verify that hacksaws were indeed not supposed to be used. What I can say is it all seemed a bit silly; because, I never heard any of the rules enforced. except when bringing tools in. It also sounds like the safety inspectors didn't know about the special rules either based on the comments in this thread. It didn't matter too much to us because we never ended up needing anything more than a drill. However, I do feel sorry for teams who may have needed more tools, and were not allowed to have them.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

I heard a rumor from an event volunteer that one team's pit lost power because of their table-top power tools. I have no evidence to support of disprove this claim. However, a different volunteer was talking to one of mentors and told us that she had called FIRST who gave the order. I think it might have started as a venue or a power problem. The ladder thing was... odd though. And still unexplained.

Field Reset had no problem, however, pulling a ladder out to remove an awkwardly placed ubertube.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Our team was told specifically that we could not be using our hack saw when one of our guys was sawing lexan, :eek: We were one of the teams that were pushing hard to have this changed, we had a lot to do to our bot that included power tools. We were told about noon on Thursday that we could kinda use drills, but we needed to have a green shirt at our pit when using the saws all to make sure that we were doing it safe. Needless to say we lost half a day of working on the bot, time that we really needed.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

I was at the mentor meeting that the event organizers assembled on Thursday.

They said no ladders.
They said you could bring in and use portable table top power tools if they met the criteria. The defining definition of them being portable was if one of the organizers could pick it up and carry the tool by themselves.

We were told that these changes or clarifications were coming from FIRST headquarters and that they had been on the phone with them for clarification. The new ladder rule was being imposed because of the FIRST insurance carrier.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Sounds like the insurance carrier should be informed of what alternate items were used in place of ladders.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

If by that you mean boxes, yes. I saw people standing on boxes and toolboxes to do it which is even more unsafe than a ladder.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

I think FIRST is trying to enhance the corporate experience.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

You were allowed to use the ladder that pit admin had though. We had to use it. They announced that at the meeting for safety captains.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

I can understand the ladder thing, as silly as it sounds. At my place of employment, I had to sign a statement saying I would not climb atop anything, or lift anything overhead.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Don't worry if MILWAUKEE tools are banned you can always DeWALT which are much better anyway.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Greg, how could you have let this thread go to 44 45 posts, before putting that one in? :rolleyes:

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

I don't know about power tools, but we lost power in our pit at least twice while we were charging batteries, with no drills or anything running. I don't think it's a venue problem, because the regional has always been at the US Cellular Arena, and it's never happened to us before.

We weren't aware of the rule banning hacksaws, and if our safety captain knew, he didn't tell us. Nobody called us on cutting some things down with a saw either.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

This was posted today on Bill's Blog http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

"I know there was a miss-communication in Milwaukee last weekend and want everyone to know that FRC encourages the use of safe bench top tools that can be carried in by one person. (See the 2011 FRC Administrative Manual section 4.9.8.) If you encounter a miss-communication at any FRC events in the future, please turn to the 2011 Manual first, then with rule in hand, discuss the problem with the event volunteer. If you cannot come to an agreement, go to the Event Manager or FTA both of whom can contact FIRST HQ if they can’t resolve the issue themselves."

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

But it made setting up pits even more unsafe because people were balancing boxes to get up to the top. Maybe the safety captains weren't listening when they told us at the meeting about the ladder at Pit Admin for all teams to borrow. We used it to set up our pit.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Well, then, good to have this clarified for future regionals, even if it is a bit late for WI.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!!! Please excuse this rant but would someone somewhere in some position of authority tell FIRST HQ to GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER on this issue!!

This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. A few years ago there was a similar incident with "miscommunication" regarding power tools at the St. Louis Regional. Fortunately they got it resolved prior to the Wisconsin Regional. Unfortunately those at the St. Louis Regional had to suffer. I feel those of us at the Wisconsin Regional received a dose of the same medicine this year.

As to what was said/done about this issue at the WI regional, I talked with a whole host of individuals from the UL Safety Inspectors (hats off to these guys for the crap they put up with!!) to robot inspectors to the regional chair and on and on. They all gave me the same response - "The ruling came from FIRST HQ." If that's the case, then there are SERIOUS communication issues at FIRST HQ because this blog post does not jive with what we were told last Thursday.

According to the Bill's Blog, "If you encounter a miss-communication at any FRC events in the future, please turn to the 2011 Manual first, then with rule in hand, discuss the problem with the event volunteer. If you cannot come to an agreement, go to the Event Manager or FTA both of whom can contact FIRST HQ if they can’t resolve the issue themselves." THAT'S WHAT THEY DID!!! They contacted HQ as a last resort and we still couldn't use the tools.

Bottom line - someone should look into how this happened to make sure it doesn't happen again! First time it happens (St. Louis) - okay, minor issue, no foul, let's get it fixed. When it happens again (Milwaukee - the town, not the tool!), we have a problem! It goes beyond frustrating!

Please, someone, explain to me how this happens!

Sean

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

My understanding, after talking to people post-event, is that one or more people at the event completely misunderstood section 4.9 of the manual. They read 4.9.7 as what teams can use in the pits, they somehow completely missed 4.9.8. When teams complained, they asked FIRST specifically about the wording of 4.9.7 with respect to insurance, etc to be sure they were interpreting it correctly, which FIRST verified. So according to these people, FIRST just confirmed their understanding of the rules, that teams cannot have "machine shops" without insurance. They were now 100% certain that FIRST agreed with their interpretation and no amount of discussion or rereading of the rules would change their ruling.

Miscommunication? Yes. Anything teams at the event could have done about it? No. Inexcusable? Yes.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

There's getting to be enough regionals around now that a lot of teams have a choice of where to go. If you're unhappy with how the regional in Milwaukee was run, then vote with your dollars and don't go there next year. You're paying several thousand dollars to purchase a regional experience - make sure you get the best deal for your money!

For people on regional planning committees, they need to start realizing that the regional "market" is becoming more competitive and they need to compete to get teams to show up. Just like a business, they need to make sure they are providing good customer service. Even when presented with the proper rules, it seems like multiple people in the chain of command at Milwaukee ignored them. Perhaps the planning committee needs to reconsider key position assignments next year or they will risk having teams not come back (I'm sure there are teams that will remember this screwup and given a choice will choose to go somewhere else).

Also, other regionals in the area should take note, and ensure they have the right people in the right jobs. Then, they should start promoting this fact to teams as a way to lure teams to their event and away from poorly-run regionals.

Competition usually works to improve most other products, why not apply that model to the regional concept? It's already happening anyway whether people care to admit or not.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

From the way I understand things, none of our registration actually goes directly to the regionals we attend. FIRST may bail out regionals that can't come up with the quarter of a million that it takes to run one of these events on their own, but in general, no registration dollars go to a regional.

I can't see how we can really "vote with our dollars" other than to participate in a different program altogether. (Which is not what I'm suggesting.)

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

This is really the only way one can express disapproval for how a regional does things in a matter that gets people to take notice.

Of course, this means these regionals are the last to fill up, so they might be the only ones left... :rolleyes: just kidding

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

As a customer, I don't care. That's a problem between FIRST and the regional. I paid $X000 to attend that regional, that's the important part.

Regionals need to attract teams to keep themselves alive. If they don't get enough teams, then FIRST may not allow them to be an official event anymore, or the venue may not take in enough $$$ from food sales and not allow the regional to come back, or sponsors may back out. I agree that the leverage isn't as great as if the money went direct to the regional, but it's really the only influence you have as a team. I guess another way to think of it is "voting with your (lack of) presence" instead of dollars. Regionals need teams to survive.

It also comes back to my first sentence - I'm paying good money to attend that regional. I want a good product for that money. Since all regionals cost the same amount, if one isn't doing a good job then the best use of my money is to go somewhere else.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Well, not really. The Wisconsin Regional Competition (like all FRC regionals of which I am aware) is not a business and it is planned and executed nearly completely by volunteers. If teams go elsewhere and the number of teams that attend the regional decrease it only leads to a reduction in support for the regional likely killing it in the end. The regional is run by the FRC community for the FRC community.

The only way to make the regional and your experience better is to actively try to make it better. One of the easiest ways to do so is to provide feedback to those that are responsible for putting on the regional competition. Luckily we have a forum for that as every year the regional planning committee holds a "Team Forum" usually mid may to gather feedback on the regional.

This was obviously the result of poor communications and a failure in the issue escalation process. Let our new regional director (Maggie) and the regional planning committee what you thought about the regional good, bad, or indifferent.

See you there.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Before this discussion gets too far into bashing the Milwaukee Regional or the committee, be advised, this issue was a misunderstanding/misreading of the rules, not the direct action of the regional or it's volunteers. A question was raised regarding the use of power tools and ladders. The shear number of power tools brought in became a concern to someone and when a team showed up trying to bring in a 20' extension ladder, ladders were questioned. When teams questioned the ruling, the wrong section of "At The Events" was read and First was asked about the meaning of the incorrectly quoted section involving "team sponsored mobile machine shops". First, of course, responded to the question asked. Until everyone was pointed to the correct area of the manual, things were confused and inconsistent. For the small bump in the road that this produced, many volunteers took a lot of unnecessary heat.

The Milwaukee Regional is a fine event, run by caring volunteers who really do a nice job. They have taken steps to correct issues, and insure that these misunderstandings do not take place at other events you might attend. There is not one person on the committee or volunteer staff that I would not want to work with again. They are a great bunch of folks.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Well said Al; I agree completely.

I admit that I was flustered a bit at the event on Thursday, but after finding out the background story of what really happened to cause this I felt bad for some of the committee members. I probably can't say much, but so that others know: most of the committee members agreed with you guys and understood the rules and were displeased with the ruling. However - everyone reports to someone else, and they had to do what they were ordered to do.

Furthermore, I think the regional (as a whole) was incredibly successful. With the exception of delayed game play on Thursday and the issue discussed in this thread, the event flowed very smoothly without any apparent hitches. If there were any, the planning committee and volunteers did a great job handling them as they went unnoticed.

The Wisconsin regional has been - and will likely continue to be - one of the most competitive and most fun regionals my team will attend.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

A large factor in the issue at hand might possibly be the precision of language used in the communication of rules, questions about the rules, and the responses to such questions. A lot of work and effort on the part of the GDC go into the creation of the rules, and I admire the dedication involved herein. However, the rules are often, and inconsistently, imprecise linguistically, and ultimately a plea for clarification is made. Such requests vary in precision, some many times more meticulously precise than the rules themselves, and others written hurriedly in the chaos that we have come to love known as "build season". Responses, as I see the situation, could be handled in a number of ways, but I shall spare the details. The current responses appear to follow a procedure that starts by assuming the question was posed with immaculate precision. The next step is to respond to the question in terms of exactly what the precisely interpreted question appeared to be asking with rather imprecise language, often defaulting to restating the rule and clarifying nothing.

I do not know whether the GDC falsely believes that it is maintaining an intimidating atmosphere of mystery or otherwise, but it is incredibly inefficient. In the future, I hope that the GDC realizes that requests for clarification are indicators of genuine misunderstanding or concern and that simply restating the rules is not always sufficient. Sometimes the person asking for clarification needs to be directed to something they were overlooking (in this case, what a "mobile machine shop" is NOT would have possibly helped). Other times, especially when multiple people ask for clarification, the rule is broken, not simply misread, and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up to more precisely communicate the rule (I'm looking at you bumper perimeter definition, <G31>, and <G32> [the last two have simply become too cumbersome and complex])
...
...
...
I'm too tired, and merciful, to continue rambling now, but I hope to return later to write my point in a more coherent manner.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Ha ha - you guys are so lucky. Try having to FLY to get to ANY regional. Even the boxes of small hand tools and spare parts put the TSA folks into a tizzy. One of our tool tubs (we use those large rubbermaid containers) was singled out for "special inspection" when we went to our local VEX regional (one island away), and didn't make it onto the plane with us.

We want to bring a cart for our robot to the Hawaii regional on Oahu, it weighs 80 lbs. (it's a really nice cart...), so we have to make special arrangements for air cargo to ship it and then pick it up when we get there.

Bring a table-top drill press? Wow. It would be so cool to have a regional competition on our island.

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Imagine all the international teams have to go through customs!

Re: MILWAUKEE TABLE TOP TOOLS BANNED?
 

Okay, it's been a week and I have had a chance to calm down.......
I am the Chairman of the Wisconsin Regional Planning Committee and was involved in the table top tools and ladder usage issue. The decisions made were not made by committee members. They were made by the Event Manager (who told us he got the edict from FIRST). We had the rule book with us and argued our (your) case. We were told to tell the teams NO to both the table top tools and the ladders. We (the committee members involved) were certain this was the wrong decision but there was nothing we could do. Please remember we too have teams competing. This decision affected our teams as well. None of us were happy and I apologize for any inconvenience it caused. As Al stated, FIRST has been apprised of the issue and will hopefully address it so that it isn't a problem at other regionals.