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Another Culture Change
Hello Everyone,
I've been thinking about this for a long time. I heard some horrible, interesting stories from the Pittsburgh regional this past weekend which helped solidify my thoughts. I managed to put these thoughts into words here: http://blog.iamjvn.com/2011/03/anoth...re-change.html I hope you'll take a minute to read, reflect, and hopefully join me in helping to shift OUR culture. -John |
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I know John that at the bottom of the "haters" message you attached, I mentioned how I envied your team and the status your "TEAM" puts themselves at. You even said in the message that the robot is a student-mentor collaboration and together you complete the best thing that your resources can. Which actually is one hell of a good machine that people believe is created solely by mentors and not students.
Something like this just really pisses me off because kids aren't putting in the effort to try and be like 148, 1114, and multiple other teams. It seems like jealousy is a large part of today's society and it is just ridiculous to see this happen while gracious professionalism is the most apparent lesson to be learned. Like a typical sport or game played, students and other teams should want to beat the team on the field and not anywhere else. The only way to do that is to look at the great teams that we see today. Learning about what they did and created will give you a huge advantage every year. I know John and the Robowranglers are even gracious enough to give out their final CADs every year so that teams can take them as reference. If you have nothing good to say about the other teams then don't. If anything, you should be asking them for help and assistance during the competition. Thank you for posting this John. |
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Excellent post, JVN. It's absolutely disgusting that things like this would happen in an organization such as FIRST, which preaches "Professionalism in everything we do." It's a shame that teams cannot be happy for one another - enjoy seeing your teammates winning (there's a chance 1114 was on an alliance with at least some of these teams at some point in time during the Pittsburgh regional), and hoping they would do the same for you.
I'm not in FIRST because it's easy. No one said that one day we will arrive at St. Louis and they'll have a banner waiting for us at the stadium. That we could simply build a robot, go through the season, and win Worlds. You win Worlds by innovation. You win Worlds by determination. You win Worlds by engineering a robot so solid, that it successfully completes the game. This is for the "haters" JVN refers to in his other blog post. I'm still confused why some teams don't come to this conclusion. Did FIRST market themselves wrong? I certainly got the memo. Why is it an issue that some teams have the determination to build a solid robot? A regional winning robot? A World winning robot? I can't say I'm familiar about how 1114 goes about building their robots, but they build them well. So well, they're inspiring. The teams that win Worlds not only build robots that dominate the game, but they build teams that display FIRST's values. It's good to see that teams that take such abuse as this don't stoop to these teams levels. It's those teams that give FIRST it's image. It's things like this that really lower the standards of this organization. If you don't like the way your team is run, change it. If you're not winning, you're doing something wrong. Determine WHY you're not winning, and reach the level of these great teams that are. They didn't get where they are now by booing their partners, or sleazy tactics such as attempting to injure another teams robot. They got where they are by years of work, innovation, and displaying FIRST's values. Again, great post JVN. Good to see issues like this don't go unnoticed. |
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JVN, thank you for posting this; this is exactly the sentiment I've had for a while. JVN, Zack O, & rcmolloy, would you mind if I quoted some of what you've said here in a speech I'm making this weekend to the Peachtree Regional participants? These points here are so eloquently put & spot-on, I'm not sure I can put them in other words for myself.
-Kyle J. |
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This just showed up right after I left the topic to check my PMs.
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Wow, what a refreshing post to see. As a member of team 2614 MARS, which actually just returned from the Pittsburgh Regional, I can honestly say that my teammates and I were all thoroughly impressed with 1114. A remarkable, beautiful robot, operated by drivers with an incredible skill and prowess. My team has had their differences with Simbotics in the past but could not have been more admiring of them this past weekend. MARS students and mentors alike took many opportunities to point out what a force they were. As a matter of fact, we owe them a special sort of thanks for giving our rookie team, 3492 RoboGens, the chance to go to Worlds. Along with 1114's sister team Spartonics, it was truly a remarkable alliance--one that we were not ashamed to lose to.
I am a relatively new member of the FIRST community but it would be my sincere hope that everyone could learn to act with the Gracious Professionalism that my team has been so adamant about instilling in its members. 1114 plays to win--and they do. That's hardly a crime. MARS, for one, admires this team's reliable competitiveness. While we pride ourselves on being a 99% student-conceived, student-built, and student-run team, we simply interact with our mentors in a different way. 1114 has a different team dynamic and in today's world where winners are abhorred and mediocrity elevated, it seems that a team with a drive to win is ostracized.... |
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That is beyond wrong and I feel so bad for each and everyone of 1114's members and ashamed this happened while visiting!
This is an area that came up last year with a great team who made a design that I loved and it gives all of us reasons for not saying, "that is too crazy" and it ended in a lot of harsh words. I am still in shock that this happened at a FIRST event and that it wasn't isolated and it went as far as BOOing. :( Team 1114 is everything that I want our team to become and the level of dedication they teach at Governor Simcoe is something that I envy and respect. They have taken each season and learned from mistakes, celebrated innovation, helped the new and struggling teams, and spread FIRST in so many ways. Thank you 1114 for inspiring me! Poor haters... they could have so much fun and do so well if they just tried. This is why we try to keep the students from speaking negatively about other teams because this is where it leads. If ever a student said a negative comment I would either A. Say why they are wrong and point out where they got it right and if it wasn't working B. Have them ask if they need help. |
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In FIRST, ignorance is NOT bliss, it is the most detrimental thing that can happen to a team. Veterans and rookies alike, love to hate on the big dogs before learning about what a team is really all about.
Mentors AND students, especially those who have a lot of influence in their area, should make sure that those around them are well educated about each and every team before things like this escalate into more severe situations. Snide remarks from upperclassmen and mentors piss me off the most. They should know better. I urge everyone at their respective regional to educate the people around you. Show them what the benefits of having an elite team as your friend can be, I know that I have gained A LOT from the giants I look up to. Make this competition about winning, not whining. Make it about learning about others, not hating on them. |
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John,
This really is OUR culture. It's YOUR culture, it's MY culture. I can speak only for myself, but MY culture has been shifting dramatically since I joined the program as a freshman in high school 8 years ago. I remember having a pride about our "zero mentor input robots." I remember being one of the crowd actively boo-ing 254 in the finals of the 2005 SVR competition. I remember all the bitterness walking in the pits at the Championship in 04 through 07, seeing teams sponsored by Ford, Motorola, GM, etc. While I have had a few negative experiences with power house teams like these (nobody is perfect), I can honestly say 99.9% of this bitterness was born out of jealousy. Jealousy of the nice machining, cool pits, and blue banners. Jealousy about stuff that doesn't even matter! It's all about inspiring the kids here people! (And I get inspired in the process :)) Flash forward to 2011. Serving on the Davis Regional Planning Committee has given me perspective into the bigger picture of what FIRST does. Through asking "powerhouse" teams questions about their robots and team structure, I've found that they are meant to be a resource and friend rather than rival and enemy. In 2010, Karthik took the time to answer in-depth questions I had regarding their unstoppable 2008 robot. These answers were key to the success of 1678's kicking mechanism that year. I have also used many of the 1114 team structure documents on their website to re-structure the team I work with here in Davis. I've also had the opportunity to visit the 254 shop a few times. Most recently, I brought team 1678 to NASA Ames (a 2 hour drive!) to practice on their competition field the Sunday before ship. We got to do a lot of practice, which was awesome, but it was so much more than that. I came in telling the kids (who had never seen a 254 bot in person), "Alright guys, 254 is going to have an awesome robot. Learn as much as you can. See how they build. Watch how they drive. How they wire. How they do everything." Being able to set the tone for the day allowed my students to get exponentially more out of the experience than just a jealous glare at an incredible machine. We were encouraged to look at the bot in-depth and ask questions. And I did. My kids did. It was awesome! Just my humble attempt at shifting the FIRST culture I guess... This is kind of a tangent, but they also fed us like no other! So much food, and we were encouraged to eat as much as we could! Thanks 254! Long post, I know, but to sum it all up, power house teams are a resource, not an enemy. Maybe FIRST should take time at the competition to celebrate the awesome things in team's chairmans award submissions? If I knew half the things these powerhouse team's did for others, completely unrelated to their dominant competition robot, I'd have a much harder time jumping to vilifying them. -Mike |
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Your blog post was very thought provoking. Now I need to think and reflect on it some more...
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I'm horrified that any FIRST team would have behavior like that, and I express my apologies to 1114 that they had to bear that.
Winning may create jealousy but this is not the way to act. FIRST isn't about who wins and loses, it isn't even about the robots. I spent three days at the WPI regional helping two inner city teams be able to pass inspection. These teams were made up of mostly poor students from bad areas. And yet they cheered just as loud as the world champion team in attendance. These teams were lucky to get their robots on the field, and neither managed to have a working arm or deployment. But I saw that same inspiration in their eyes. Talking with another volunteer I heard them say that they consider them among the best teams there, and I was confused. They went on to say that the teams come from some of the worst schools in the state, and that they receive almost no funding, but that their students are in the top ten percent for the state's test scores. They consistently have students all go on to college, some even to MIT. One student told me about his national scale winning science fair project as we worked on the robot. That is what FIRST is about to me. The inspiration that brings even those in the worst conditions onto a level where they can change the world. The competition and the robots are tools towards a goal, means toward an end. The goal is to inspire. 1114 should inspire the teams towards greatness and towards that level of competition and excellence. The goal of FIRST isn't to have teams dominate with fantastic machines, it is a preference for sure, but the real goal is to show students what they are capable of, what we all are capable of, and to drive them towards a better future with a gracious heart. To all teams, remember that FIRST is about how we act, who we are, and what we will become, and what you will go on to do. To act that way is not a reflection of what anyone should aspire to. |
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John, it took a while to read through your blog; I read it over several times. I am truly disgusted by how some reacted towards Team 1114. This is simply ignorance.
I have encountered the same situation with a mentor this past weekend where I was told by him that team 233's students don't do a thing and it just seemed all engineer built. I simply asked him to watch the Pink team closely throughout the weekend. His view on the Pink team changed completely at the end. I suppose until you see it for yourself, it is hard to believe what these students are capable of. For some, the case is to jump to a conclusion right away... simply known as an ignorant. I wish some would take their time to just stop by one of the elite team's pit just for 15 minutes and ask, "How do you do this?" ... Oh, and just in case any of those people who put any of these elite teams down, why don't you try to asking them to share their ideas and designs with you? You will be surprised by how much help you will get from them. |
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John-
I was reading your blog and I just have to say I'm generally disappointed in many things going on. Sure, I've seen a little team-bashing here and there due to the competitive spirit, but targeting one team like that is crossing the line. It's almost a form of bullying or even harassment, which FIRST, I think, strives to prevent. I'm going to talk with the team before embarking to our regional to make sure our team at least preserves the Gracious spirit of FIRST. Eunice |
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The more times I read your post, the more sickened I feel. My first reaction was shock- everything I have seen, heard, and read about the Simbots has been proof of the quality organization that they run and the professionalism of their students and mentors. The help they provide to the teams they work with is phenomenal, and watching them work with 3492 in the pits next to ours during eliminations was a fantastic sight. That anyone would treat any other FIRST team in such a manner, especially a team of such upstanding reputation, is appalling. That shock quickly subsided- I hadn't witnessed the occurrences specifically listed in your blog, but I had seen similar events over the course of the regional. The lack of professionalism shown by a handful of people in Pittsburgh was disgusting. On behalf of my team: If 1114 chooses to return to Pittsburgh again in the future, they will have a friend in 2614-Team MARS. EDIT: Please note: We are MARS. We are 2614. We wear white and red. We are often confused with another team with a similar number. This has caused us numerous issues in the past in interactions with inspectors, field crew, awards presentations, and other teams at multiple events. We do not tolerate, condone, or support any actions anywhere close to the behavior presented towards 1114 this weekend. |
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The Robowranglers consistently put out great robots, and more importantly, great students. Anyone who falls under the impression that powerhouse teams have mentor-built robots needs only to look at the students for their answer.
I haven't been in FIRST for a very long time, but it's pretty easy to notice who's doing the work on a robot. 148, 1114, 217 are all teams that fall under criticism for having mentor built robots, but I have NEVER seen a mentor from any of these teams even touch the robots at competition. Meanwhile, many "midrange" veteran teams have packs of mentors taking care of everything. It's easy to point fingers and try to draw attention away from yourself. I'll admit, I once did this as a student. I'm now trying to build my team with a stricter set of values. FIRST isn't about acting kindly to everyone in an attempt to be a gracious professional. There shouldn't be any acting involved. We know we aren't going to be the best team out there, but we try to do our best. We applaud those who also do the best they can, especially if their best is better than ours. Teams need to stop worrying about who's doing what on other teams and concentrate on doing the best they can with what they have and keeping the students in charge and in line. |
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The best, and only surefire (IMO), solution to change the culture to universally accept and celebrate teams like 1114 is to make it so the teams who can't compete with 1114 and don't have the caliber of design process of 1114 the minority rather than the majority. When 1114 is the norm, rather than the elite, it will be a lot harder to not appreciate what 1114 accomplishes.
How do we achieve such a lofty goal? I have no idea. I started to ramble about it, but decided it's probably wiser to leave it open ended. Here at DAWGMA, an alumnus used to joke that 1712 has a little 71 in us. While it was more a play on numbers than anything, I hope one day that every team has more "FRC nerds" on it where they can appreciate great teams when they see them. And for it to be an honest appreciate, not jealousy or contempt. e; To be fair. I still hate the New York Yankees and always will. Perhaps I'm just biased, but I do think this challenge will be awfully hard to solve. |
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1114 is a powerhouse. So are some of the other teams around the country. They did not become that way by chance. Winning is important and to win they must do a lot of things right.
Building a good robot. This is important if you want to win. 1114 does that regularly. I know because the teams that I have been associated with competed with them every year. I also know that they inspired the kids on our teams to be better to try and beat them. This is a good thing. A goal always brings out the best in us all. Having good contacts. This is an area that 1114 has also excelled. The mentors, Engineers, teachers and parents support their team with time, resources and money. They also have good bonds with other FIRST teams. All of this is good. Good strategy. If some of the other teams in FIRST ever got the chance to listen in with their team and mentors you would be amazed. From the moment the game is announced they start at it and don't quit till after Championships. Constantly adapting as the weeks go on to make themselves be the best they can be. This also is good. Building a good team. I am not talking about the robot but about TEAM. This includes EVERY student, mentor, teacher, sponsor and parent that wishes to be involved. Every person has a responsibility and they fulfill it. As each member does their part the team is strengthened. This again is good. Willing to share. Well maybe not all of their secrets right away but they will let you see and learn from the robot after the competition starts. What teams have learned and taken back to their shops in invaluable. They also share their resources , both parts and manpower to help other teams before season ends and at each competition they attend. I personally have used them when I am going around the pits and see teams in need of help. They are one of the first teams that I ask for assistance from. I guess what I am trying to say is that 1114 is one of the great stories of FIRST. Built on FIRST principles and excelling with them shows that FIRST does work. Does it bother me that they continually win? You bet it does. Not because they win but because I haven't come up with a way to beat them. I continually strive to be my best and I wish others would do the same. People and teams never become better by lowering standards and tearing down others around them. They become better by reaching for goals out of their reach and eventually attaining them then setting new goals. This is what 1114 does. JVN thanks for starting this thread. Your insight is always beneficial. It is not easy to say what must be said but I believe that you have done so a lot better than many could. People should also take note that 1114 is not the only team that I have heard things like this about. Funny thing is that when I have dealt with some of these other teams I find the same model and excellence that I see in 1114. Maybe we can start a new trend in FIRST where excellence is applauded instead of trying to tear it down. |
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When someone posts on CD with the type of attitude towards a team that was reported as shown to 1114, I stand with the team. More often than not, there is no grounds for the accusation of being mentor-built. More often than not, it isn't the first time that the team has had to defend themselves against that. Usually, the person doing the original post collects a few negative reputation clicks and backs off their stance a *bit*. Or they actually take the time to meet with the team, and do a U-turn. (Same goes for other types of baseless accusations.)
But doing it to their face and consistently? That is taking that attitude to a new low. Whoever was doing this should be ashamed of themselves. Not for having an opinion, but for their chosen method of expressing it. If you want to express that type of opinion, be professional and go to them and express it. Let them explain their methods. You have the option to adopt those methods or not. FIRST has not specified that student-built teams are better than mentor-built teams. The only thing saying that is pride/jealousy among certain individuals. Maybe they should take that pride/jealousy and instead of trying to beat X powerhouse, they should try to be that powerhouse. Raise the level of competition, and raise the professionalism level at the same time--sounds like a win-win. |
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Hold on everyone - did anyone *actually at Pittsburgh* witness the things reported? I would hate for the Pittsburgh Regional to be unjustly associated with this behavior. I can't address the other allegations, but I was in the stands during the awards ceremonies and didn't notice any booing. Usually when something inappropriate like that happens the crowd responds to the "boo-er" in an overwhelming fashion.
I'm not associated with 1114 so I wouldn't have been the target of these things, but I didn't sense any sort of anti-Canada or anti-1114 vibe this weekend (unless you count statements like "1114 is going to be impossible to beat"). I have great respect for JVN, but something just doesn't sound right to this story - I'm skeptical. If anyone has any information that someone from 2252 is associated with these allegations please PM me so I can take immediate corrective action. |
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JVN and others -
It's not excusable and it can, maybe, be fixed with determination and information like Michael C. spoke about. I hope. Team 1114 has helped our team with their excellent information on their website. Their ability to help and lead should never be denigrated. Sometimes, despite all that you do as a mentor, it might not be enough. A case in point: after GSR, a friend of mine who isn't a FIRST mentor, mentioned that one of her daughter's friends had commented on how rude students from my team had been at GSR. I was shocked to hear that, let me tell you! We had gone over and over again about our expectations for behavior at any team event, never mind a competition. We talked about it quite a bit and I think I may have an inkling as to what went on. We never competed against this other student's team, so I'm thinking that it's probably a case of confusing one team with another. (And if anyone on CD can confirm this behavior rumor and give me details, please pass them along in a PM.) BUT if I find out that it definitely was one of our students, there will be serious consequences even if it's an "explainable" case. Last year, we had a student who was spoken to by a mentor for just this sort of issue. After a second non-GP incident, he was asked reconsider his priorities and when he could come up with a plan for meeting our expectations, then we'd be happy to talk with him about his place in the team. Unfortunately, we haven't seen him since. I know we've tried to emulate and teach a sense of fairness, helpfulness and the desire to learn from other teams. I know that we're all human and that we've probably missed some perfect teaching moments at our competition. All we can do is keep trying. I know I will. |
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However, I do know, with 100% certainty, that there have been similar incidents towards 1114 at the Pittsburgh regional (and other events) before. And that the team in question then, who did not attend Pittsburgh this year, is generally held in high regard by most of FRC. And that team took similar, though far less severe, actions against my team at a later event that year. Whether or not this issue happened at Pittsburgh this year is almost irrelevant to the greater issue at hand. No, we shouldn't drag the Pittsburgh regionals name through the mud if this isn't true. But the greater point is almost irrelevant, as we all know the root problem exists and should be rectified. |
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On behalf of team 2493, we are inspired to try harder to emulate teams like 1114, 148, 1538, 399, 254, 71, 33, 233, 1515, 968, and many many more teams we have met that exemplify the value of FIRST. We make every attempt to learn how such teams become great and do our best to follow in their steps, and push the envelope even further.
Obviously we have some work to do to help others see the benefit of all of us rowing in the same direction. You can count on us as part of Operation: Change The Culture. |
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Thanks to everyone who has expressed their support in this thread and elsewhere via social media. It's always nice to be reminded that there are still lots of people who get it.
Unfortunately the issues that JVN described in his blog aren't new. 1114 has been dealing with these sorts of comments for years. Sometimes they become very public in the case of things like booing, but more often than not they happen when people are hidden behind (or believe they're hidden) a cloak of anonymity. It's not only 1114 who has to deal with this. Over the years, great teams like 47, 67, 71, 111, 148, 217, 233, 254, 469, 2056 among many many others have been needlessly bashed. Most do it privately, but others do it publicly. Regardless, it's not cool. So how do we stop it? We cannot tolerate it. If you see/hear someone acting this way, call them out on it. Don't just laugh awkwardly and ignore it, squash it. If we passively ignore this type of behavior, it becomes acceptable. Too often people just say "oh, you should take it as a compliment, it means you're good." I'm sorry, but we can do better than that. We need to take a stand at teams who are doing this, directly. Quote:
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The problem is jealousy, whining, and a lack of respect and appreciation for greatness. |
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I don't see a disagreement. |
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I don't understand how to some degree this becomes an argument of our engineering standards or of how competitively we design and build. Nor do I understand how this conversation to come to being about ignorance or if you build your robot this way or that. I see this as the opening of a concern that we all must address. I think placing this conversation in the context of competition actually hurts our progress. We need to admire and appreciate the accomplishments of the peers in our communities. We cannot see it as something to defeat. Isn't that how we get to this point, because somehow or another, a student begins to think that it isn't about what they learn, or the way they learn, but about who can build the best robot on a norm-based scale or criterion-based? Can we not approach this issue and say why should comparison have such a bearing. Yes, it is the hurtful behavior of a group of students, or perhaps a team, but is it only that? Can we also look at the way that we approach this dialogue of who's winning?
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Has any team ever won a regional and not experienced this in some fashion? Most of us are nowhere near the levels that 148, 1114, 254, 111, etc. do. However, when 1276 won BAE in 2006 we experienced snide remarks (half a dozen), which is half a dozen more than I was expecting. They were all along the lines of "mentor built robot, students don't know anything." I have heard similar murmurs for pretty much every competitive team I know of in the Northeast.
FWIW, I think some of those comments against 1114 should get the offenders kicked out of the event. Perhaps 1114 should move their robot through the pits by yelling, "Team build robot coming through!" ? :cool: |
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This is nothing new. I remember it all the way back to 2003 with Team 60. If it doesn't look like it was hacked together from scrap and place near the bottom of the ranks, people assume the students didn't build it. I remember when I was in middle school, and built a Pinewood Derby car with a built-in battery and LED headlights and taillights. I overheard the parent judges, and was denied an award because "this one must have been built by his father." I think it's rather insulting to the bright students out there to assume students are not capable of higher level work. Do not be so quick to judge how a team works unless you've been in their shop for hours on end.
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You don't cut it with a hacksaw if you have a waterjet. You don't epoxy it if you have a welder. You don't beat it over the edge of a table if you have a press brake. You don't let your experienced mentors sit on the sidelines while the students fool around without direction. You never want to look back and say "we could have done better." If your engineers are not helping your students, I bet one of them says this at the end of the year. Suppose an engineer has an idea that as shown by an engineering process, provides a competitive advantage over a student's idea. Should the engineer keep his mouth shut and let the student continue down a failed path? No. Will student learning be achieved? Perhaps, but what will the student have learned? How to fail... The engineer should provide the guidance to show the student why a certain idea is better than another, with the engineering basis or calculation to support the claim. This is inspiration. This is teamwork. Has student learning been achieved? Yes, to a greater extent than if the student had failed. They are now ready to do things the right way, as opposed to only having learned what they've done wrong. Any adult can open a door. Some can give direction. A few can give leadership. These are the true mentors. This is where true success comes from. |
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I'm completely disgusted to find out that this happens. I never in my wildest dreams would dare to say a robot is mentor built. We've had a year where the mentors have done more than probably should have, and quite frankly, it didn't help us much. Next year, we had more student involvement and incidentally, we did better from a competitive standpoint.
I also find it sad that numerous teams, especially the powerhouses, have their build season/methods completely transparent and are still accused of, well almost anything you can think to accuse them of. Personally, JVN's build journal, RUSH's rookie toolkit, and all of the NEMO papers out there were invaluable to another mentor and myself when we took lead over a team. The FIRST community is a much better place because they share what works, and doesn't work for them. To then turn around and have teams call them out on it? I'm floored. Quote:
Potential dialogue: "Team #### sucks! Totally mentor built!" "Really? What makes you say that?" "*Insert reason here*" "Do you know this first hand? You're probably taking away credit from the students. Have you talked to the team about their design? No? Let's go talk to them." In closing, I'm reminded of one of my mother's favorite phrases: "If it's not nice, don't say it." |
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This topic has reminded me about Woodie Flowers back at the kickoff. He talked about rational passion at the end of his speech.
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LOVED the blog entry JVN!
and just in time too(I'm going to include it in our logistics meeting before we roll out for our regional this week), I've been preaching to my students that the really good teams help raise the bar to help inspire teams like us to work and learn how to jump higher. It really made me fumid when one my old students from an old team before I moved messaged me that he was upset that a powerhouse team was showing to their regional, I felt like I failed as a mentor that he didn't remember what makes the team more than a "Robotics Team" but a "FIRST Robotics Team". The reason I'm still in FIRST as a volunteer and mentor is because it's simply put, the culture. |
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Kind of saddened to know people would dislike a team so much to find no admiration of their ability to create a good robot and because of their higher availability of resources. My team knows its going to be tough at West Michigan with teams like 27, 67, 1718, and 1918 there but I would rather lose in the quarter-finals or semifinals if we get in eliminations to a powerhouse than win the competition never facing one. We had a great match as the 8th alliance in Galileo last year against the Thunder Chickens with a photo-finish pushing match.
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Every team at the regional I'm going to mention will remember this happening.
Gary Voshol concocted a April fools day prank to play on us Michigan teams - on April 1st of last year, during an event, he announced an emergency rule update. He told us FIRST had released a rule update stating that they believed it was against the spirit of the game for a robot to lock into the tower, so no one could stay there more than 5 seconds. Of course, this was a jab at 469, who everyone in the district (and the country) knew had an incredible robot. The number of people who cheered sickened and angered me - I actually yelled a word in anger that I wasn't too proud of at the time. A good chunk of the students at that venue were more than happy to have the dreams of a team crushed rather than play against them. I suspect it would have met the same response anywhere in the country. This starts with the mentors. It's up to us to stamp it out. It's up to us to make it right. It's up to us to guide our team members and remind them that if it were OUR game breaking robot, we'd be devastated. I wonder how many teams talked about that occurrence. I know we did. |
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How do we stop this? Mentors can guide students to have a good attitude. For example, at KC this past week, I was chatting with a couple of students from a top team and I mentioned that there were quite a few really top robots competing. The students singled out one particular team and said that this other top team copied their designs. The conversation was in danger of going seriously negative - I tired to steer the conversation in a positive direction. I said that we love it when someone copies our designs - that's the highest form of flattery - they like your design enough to use it on their robot. I told the story of 2177 from last year. 2177 saw our hanger design on video and they made a version of it for their robot. When we saw their hanger at 10,000 lakes we were totally thrilled about it. We ended up partnering with 2177 in the eliminations.
My question then is - can mentors guide other mentors to have a good attitude? |
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It really saddens me to see this happen. I've worked with 1114 many times in the past as allies and as foes and they are a great team with a top notch structure.
It is apparent to me now that I am in the vast minority that I love to see engineering excellence be rewarded. There's nothing I like more than to see great robots win. Last year it took me about 3 hours to break out of my funk when 469 lost on Einstein (no offense to the winning alliance, I just grew attached to 469 with their creative design). I was the biggest WildStang fan this past weekend while watching the Wisconsin webcast, and if you do some searching you'll find out that I was (and still am) one of the biggest team 71 fans around. It's natural to feel a little jealosy at times, but how you use that is what separates the successful from the pack. You can whine and blame and cry "woe is me", or you can channel that into a passion for improving and beating them on the field. People need to realize that they DO have the power to beat these teams by improving YOUR team rather than by tearing down those above. It just takes a lot less effort to attempt to destroy what's above you than to try and climb the hill. |
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One line from JVN's blog struck me: "If you think that about our team, you don't know our team."
That has been my experience in the past. Sure, I envied the top powerhouse teams - I think most people do. Yet it was envy tinged with awe. How could they do all the things they accomplished? When you get to know teams, you realize how they came to the position they have. It's not from luck, from the good fortune of having everything handed to them on a silver platter. Teams work hard to get their sponsors, their equipment, their resources. I got to know Karthik about 5 years ago, when there was controversy about the "twins/triplets" robots. When he explained their motives and what the cooperation between the teams had accomplished, it made sense. It wasn't something "unfair" as many people had claimed; it was just another way of inspiring students. I also know how isolated incidents can lead to bad impressions of a team. Something a team did many years ago struck me as being terribly wrong. I held bad feelings for that team for a long time; if they won an award I remembered back to that incident. It was only a year or two ago that I got to know the team mentors better, and realized that the team didn't have a bad attitude. Maybe it's time to talk to them again this year, and resolve things that started for me in 2006. Maybe people that have current issues with teams shouldn't let them fester until they break open in anger and insults. Regarding the April Fool's joke last year, we had no idea the crowd would react that way. We thought it would cause the team to sweat for a couple of minutes, and then we'd all share a good laugh, as had happened with other pranks in prior years. Had we known the reaction would be so negative against the team we would never have done it. I immediately went to the team and apologized, and if I never apologized publicly please accept this post as that apology. |
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It wasn't that long ago - 2008? when I was one of these haters. I certainly wasn't public or overly vocal about it, but I was a maker of snide comments to those who I thought had a similar worldview. Essentially it boiled down to "why are all these grownups playing at a high-school game? Get out of the way and let the kids have a chance!"
Somewhere along the way, my perspective got changed. I think it was by 1024. I knew several of the adults on that team; I knew a couple of the students. I knew they were "in it for the right reasons" and I knew their robot that year was a thing of beauty - and they had the Midas touch with everything but Einstein. They weren't some mysterious team in a mysterious land with a NASA or GM in their backyard - they were on the northeast side of the town I lived. Around that time, I learned to stop hating and start appreciating. Learn how they do it, and in time, do it better. The machines in 2008 were absolutely astonishing and inspirational. They opened my eyes to what was possible. 1024, 45, 931, 148, 1114, 217 - thank you all for showing me how elegant a TEAM-built robot could be. 2007 was a dark period for me personally in the FIRST world. I felt "outside the loop" - I felt like FRC was a political game and we weren't invited to the party. My opinion on FIRST soured that year - partially because our robot frankly inhaled audibly and wasn't too inspirational; but mostly because of the Us vs. Them mentality we harbored. We are very fortunate to live in Indiana, the home of Andy and Mark and Chris and Chris and Chris and Flo and Wayne and Jeff and Scott and Tim and Melodie and Brant and Joe and Josh and scores of other people who do things well and do things right. Despite my private misgivings, these people still welcomed us and are now counted among my friends. Perhaps we're not looking through the right lens. We've always equated FIRST to sports - to me, the greats aren't athletes. They're rock stars. And nobody hates Joe Perry or Jimmy Page or Jimi Hendrix because they play the guitar well. These folks are idolized and revered - and everybody knows they got to where they are through hard work and a bit of talent. |
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Plenty has been said in this thread already so I'll keep it brief.
1114 et al, find comfort in knowing many MANY teams and people support your team and the robots you create. Anyone who sees an 1114 machine compete and finds nothing inspirational about it is lying to themselves. There are 2 ways to level the competition, one is to bring the floor up, and one is to bring the ceiling down. Plain and simple, any one striving to bring the ceiling down has completely missed the message of FIRST, inspiration, problem solving and engineering. -Brando |
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I struggle with community members who think FIRST is 'elitist' becase there is a sharp divide between teams that have lots and lots of resources and teams that do not. We face an additional challenge of being extremely rural -- as in, 20 miles from the nearest stoplight -- and our town is so small that we are limited to two fundraisers a year (so as to not take opportunities from other extracurricular activities).
What I usually say when people start hating on the powerhouse teams is something like this: "We can be like them. There are things they do better than we do, and how terrible would it be to try to 'level the playing field' by restricting them. They build awesome robots -- we can do that, too. They have more mentors -- we can recruit more. They have more money -- we are limited in that regard, but so what? We seeded higher than the Thunder Chickens at FLR last year, and shared a blue banner with them when *we* chose *them* for our alliance. We have up years and down years. Usually we're middle of the pack. But every year our capabilities get better, our aspirations higher, and our drive stronger. This happens BECAUSE of teams like 217, 1114, 254 -- they are INSPIRATIONAL powerhouses who show the rest of us what true excellence really is, and they give us something to shoot for." It usually is NOT the reaction most people are expecting -- they expect me to confide in them how upsetting the inherent unfairness is. I hope some of them listen to what I have to say! I do my best to instill this attitude in my team members as well. Jealousy is a wasted emotion, and can easily be replaced with inspiration from the EXACT SAME EVENTS. Same situation, different response = win for everyone. ---------------- Oh, and on student-vs-mentor built robots: We have always had a mix of the two, with mentors guiding and working with students to create the best product we can with the resources available. Our engineering decisions are ultimately made by the students, but are heavily informed by the engineers, and we do our best to make sure that students understand what the tradeoffs are in any decisions they make. Our mentors work on some things with students; our students work on some things themselves. I think this is likely true on every team, whether they think so or not. ...but one of the things I see as an important aspect of FIRST, a part of the culture we hope to change, is getting more adults involved in the school. FIRST is, in my experience, the ONLY program that pulls in adults who are not simply helping out some activity that their child is involved with. Mentor involvement is essential to bringing more adults into our schools, so that they can inspire science and technology in kids. So I would HOPE that robots are a collaboration between mentors and students, with the focus on the entire team doing the best they can AS A TEAM to create an excellent, competitive robot. /ramble |
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Dear 1114:
Please come to the Florida Regional next year. We will embrace you, feed you, entertain you and learn from you. Then we will be honored to go out and be crushed by you. (we are used to it, we play against 233, 179, 1251 every year) Love, Exploding Bacon |
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I've competed alongside 1114 for quite a number of years both as a student and a mentor. I am very familiar with the negative vibes toward them. I will not lie nor will I take the moral high-road- I don't like competing with them.
Before you jump all over me, let me explain why: Every year I watch a group of students, teachers, parents, mentors and sponsors pour their hearts and souls into a machine. They regularily stay up until 5am in the morning trying to squeeze in a few more hours of design work. I have watched them struggle to keep their marks from slipping as they try to make their team the best it can be. I have watched parents, teachers and mentors including myself push themselves to and past their mental, physical and emotional limits trying to give 150% - but they do it. Every - single - year. And yet every year I see these people show up to a competition with their masterpiece. They are proud of it. They are inspired by what they have accomplished. To make it onto the field is a high- it is the culmination of the thousands of hours of dedication compromises and commitment. They feel on top of the world. This is FIRST. However, with one match against one of these powerhouse teams these people's hopes and dreams that they might have a shot at winning a regional, award or the acolade of their peers can be dashed to bits after being hopelessly clobbered by a team like 1114. How are these people supposed to feel after having another team kick dirt all over their dream machine? They ask themselves- "We gave it our all- 150% - and yet it wasn't enough? How do we become a team like that? How did they do it?" At first they feel inspired to find out how this other team was able to produce a result so much better than theirs. Next year they try again.... and they get clobbered. The following year they try- and again they can't reach the "powerhouse" level of competition. You have to understand that every year teams put so much time and effort - sheer sweat and determination into their machines but it seems hopeless to ever compete on a level playing field with the likes of these powerhouse teams. What was formerly awe and inspiration now turns to frustration and resentment. They feel inadequate and inferior. They have just been shown that their best effort is not good enough. This is why these feelings exist and why there is much negativity felt for these kinds of "powerhouse" teams. As for how we change this? Well I really don't know. Lets see what kind of problem solvers these teams really are. |
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I won't go into what has already been said in this thread but I would like add that once you get to know these powerhouse teams you soon learn that they want to help elevated every other team to be as good as they are.
I think the important part of JVN's blog is the need for culture change. We need to all commit that when we hear these kinds of things and see those kind of actions that we will take our own action to educated the offenders. Lets change their minds by kindly explaining to them how wrong they are and take them by the hand to meet some of these fantastic mentors and students. |
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Again, as many have said here this is what its all about. There is a cultural shift that FIRST needs and it needs to go back to being cooperative and not so competitive.
I will make one point though. A lot of this responsibility lies on the mentors now and the FIRST alums who are mentors and volunteers. We need to bring this back to the students of our teams. We need to emphasize and reiterate Gracious Professionalism, not only in speech but also in our actions. Because as has been said time and again, actions speak louder than words... I hope some of the students reading this post heed to this, not only for FIRST but also for other aspects of their lives. |
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To anyone who accuses teams of this, I pose a simple challenge.
On practice day, stand by the field exit location. Listen to what the student drivers of the "mentor built" robots are talking about, after testing out their machines. I bet you they're talking about what went wrong. I bet you they're talking about ways to improve. I bet you they're using technical words that you may not know the meaning of. I haven't been wrong yet. |
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Here is another example: I recall inspecting a team a few years ago. This team was from a small town where a strong, well-respected FRC team was located. In the pit, the team had two mentors and about four students focused on this conversation. I started off the inspection process by asking them where they were from. They told me, and then talked about the other team in their area. As they talked about this other team, they said very accusatory things, claiming that this other team cheated by building their robot before the build season started, and they said that the team also had no students work on the robot at all. My first reaction was to try to disarm the situation, by saying that teams often make development robots in the fall, and then build a competition robot during the season. However, this seemed to get the lead mentor more fired up, raising his voice and increasing his claims. At that time, I asked the two mentors to step out of the pit, away from the kids. What I wanted to tell them, I did not want the kids to hear. I found myself essentially scolding the mentors, so I did not want their students to see that. I asked them if they saw these rules being broken first hand. I asked them if they were 100% sure if no kids touched the robot. Then, I told them that I know this team well enough that neither of their claims are true. I knew about their team's off-season development, and I knew that students were deeply involved in all aspects. Then, I told them that their false claims were not only dangerous to the other team they are blaming, but also very dangerous to the students on their own team, in their own pit. I told them that they cannot make these false claims, and they need to explain what I said to their students who have heard them make these claims today and in the past. I walked away, disgusted. About an hour later, I came back to the pit, and inspected the robot by only talking to the kids. The kids were very happy to see me and very respectful. The mentors were silent. I don't know if these mentors are involved in FIRST anymore. If they are, I hope their views are very different. I am proud that I took this action of confronting these mentors at this time. Other times, I have not. I will definitely be on the lookout for more of these opportunities. We all should be. We are here to educate, inspire, and mentor not only the students, but teams who need guidance, whether they know it or not. Quote:
Sincerely, Andy B. |
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Nearly everybody works incredibly hard in FRC. But why do we have great teams and then good teams and then, just...teams? If performance in FRC was just a function of how much work and time that was put in to the robot, we'd have significantly better robots today. Everyone would have perfectly-running vision code, buttery-smooth drivetrains and mechanisms, and minimal robot breakdowns. But we don't have that.
We have teams that work incredibly hard and all they can field is a box on wheels. On the other side, we have teams that work incredibly hard and they come up with elegant, dominating machines. Why? That's complicated, and has to do with resources, brain power, organization, strategy, work ethic, and sometimes luck. But in the end, the why doesn't matter. To the "haters" as they have been referred to in this thread: Come on guys, grow up. This is how the real world is. You know that. We all know that. So why would it be different in FRC, which is as real-world a competition as it gets? Where FRC is different from the real world is NOT THE COMPETITION. It is in the culture surrounding the competition. Here's the difference. Let's say you have a company that is beating the crap out of its competitors in certain fields. Go to that company, and say "How did you do it? Tell us your strategies, your great technologies, and the secret to your success!" If you are a competitor, that company is going to tell you to buzz off. HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE: If you asked 148, or 1114, or 217, or 71, or 111, or 233, or 67, or WHOEVER you think is a great FRC team...THEY WILL TELL YOU THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. THEY WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO HAVE SUCCESS LIKE THEM. People who think otherwise are dangerous to the success of FIRST in general. |
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I've appreciated the transparency some of the powerhouse teams have shown through their videos, blogs, and post-season white papers. It has gone along way to removing my feelings of jealosy and replacing it with admiration. I now assume the best about teams instead of the worst.
We are developing a culture on our team where we stand and applaud for every award and especially for the teams that beat us. Some of our students have to just do it even when they don't feel like it on the inside. I have had direct conversations with some of our students when I think someone doesn't get it, and we are willing to tell a student to take off our team shirt until they can. This also includes having conversations with students after we've been successful whose boasting makes it more difficult for other teams to be gracious towards us. We have never been past the semi-finals in KC. We have been beaten by different teams every time. The variety of teams at the top is appreciated. I understand how losing to the same team every year can strain emotions. While powerhouses have a "home" regional it is also nice to see them vary the 2nd regional that they attend to avoid the appearance of beating up on a weaker region if they "always" win. (There are many circumstances where this is not possible and should not be used as a judgement on any team.) It also helps when teams show a genuine interest in the design process of others. We try to stop by every pit during the weekend and find something to appreciate. We are developing relationships. I read in a book somewhere that "Listening disarms anger." Hearing what other teams have to share builds a bond that helps to overcome resentment. This is easier in a "home" regional than one you are a guest at. Thank You JVN for bringing up this issue. We will not be tolerant in our corner of the world of the type of behavior you described in ourselves, on our team, or with anyone we might exhibit influence on. |
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I don't have a lot new to add, however I will most likely write a lot here as I usually do. I've been carrying a similar torch for a long while now (I'm sure you can find at least a dozen similar posts of mine on these boards if you'd like) and I'm glad it's still a conversation.
The issue isn't about 1114 here at all. 1114 is fine, is going to be fine, and will inspire the thousands they always inspire and win a lot of hardware while doing it. It's unfortunate they are targets here, but clearly they're not the only targets. In recent years I've seen this type of situation first-hand and it's anything but acceptable. This singular situation is an example of a growing culture problem (I think I called it "Kressly's Mainstreamers Theory" at one point). Early in my FIRST years I remember viewing certain teams as "cheaters" too. Thankfully, I was well-mentored, listened to the right voices (both inside and well beyond my own team) until I had a better understanding. Bottom line is that once I REALLY got to know those teams, I was more amazed than anything. For those of you who think it's demoralizing to a team to "lose" year after year to the same team, I'd bluntly state that I believe team leadership needs to refocus all of those team members with a consistent message about real meanings in FIRST and about the stark difference between the "full effort to win" vs. the actual winning itself. Besides, these powerhouses all need alliance partners, don't they? I also find it sadly, and highly amusing, that many teams out there look at this situation as a "better robot because they have more access to goodies" situation. It takes ZERO DOLLARS AND ZERO EQUIPMENT to develop a sound game strategy and then scout (paper and pencil forms, maybe?) voraciously at events. If you match a sound strategy with a robot that can even play part of the game well (for example this year a box on wheels that plays defense and deploys a consistent minibot would certainly have a shot at the elims) and couple that with REAL scouting data from what you observe on the field of play you'll have yourself "in the mix" on the field and you'll build credibility with others. This isn't just about working hard, it's about working smart - knowing your strengths, timelines, and capabilities. If you don't have the infrastructure of an 1114 or 148 then trying to do as much as they do, the same way is planning for disaster. Also don't forget the other, equally wonderful award entry submissions that help you mark the culture change in your community. I for one will raise my hand as a mentor that has NEVER helped to build an elite robot, but I have been able to, through my efforts, effectively bring about positive culture change in two communities (working on the third, now) and have contributed positively to many lives in the process. My teams, for the most part, have been competitive on the field, too. What more could I ever ask for? And much of the learning I've/we've done has been from the "powerhouse" teams because they've been so willing to share. Quite frankly, those mentors/leaders/students/teams focused on solely extrinsic motivators (trophies) who are not EQUALLY espousing intrinsic motivators are missing the point altogether and pretty much haven't REALLY CLOSELY listened to Woodie and others. In my experience the more we focus in the intrinsic, the more the extrinsic happen anyway. Like I said, I'm glad this is still a conversation, but I long for the day we will no longer need to have it. As Sean says, it's not a short, nor easy road. |
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Thanks to JVN for airing this issue. Science and technology can solve many problems, but they cannot change the fact that jealousy is a very corrosive and destructive force. We cannot prevent people from feeling jealous of another team's repeated successes, but we can make it unacceptable for those feelings to be expressed in the kind of ways that 1114 had to suffer in Pittsburgh. For this to happen, the "silent majority" must not remain silent. In most cases, a gentle rebuke is probably all that is required - we don't have to be obnoxious to deal with those who are behaving in an obnoxious way.
I've been fortunate enough to see 1114's robots up close on several occasions at Championships and at IRI, and to be able to talk to their team members. I have come away from those interactions believing that there is no reason why our team cannot aspire to be as good as they are and achieve some of the same success. Their success is not magic, and it's certainly not "unfair". It's inspirational. I would love to have 1114 (or any of the other powerhouse teams that have been mentioned in this thread) come and inspire us up close at the Granite State Regional next year :) |
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H.A.T.E.R.S. = Having Anger Towards Everyone Reaching Success
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I did attend the Pittsburgh regional.
I had heard beforehand that 1114 was expected to be a powerhouse at the competition, and personally that excited me, because there is nothing worse than a regional full of Toasters on Wheels. From practice day, the mystique started to grow. How come they weren’t in any matches? Was their robot working? No, I was told… they never show their robot ahead of time. I thought that was odd, but I’d learned not to believe urbane legends. Then when they did start playing later in the day, their capabilities were very evident. I immediately said “why didn’t we think of that, and that, and that?” Their team sat behind us in the stands so I got a few moments to chat, but they were very quiet and restrained. On Friday, after a grueling day, my wife and I happened to pick the same restaurant as 1114 to eat dinner. All their talk was about the robot and what to do to make it run better (unlike our team for sure). Several times during the event I did try and go over to have a look at their robot, and talk to their team about how they organized themselves, but I will admit to being somewhat intimidated, and I didn’t have much success. They seemed very protective of their robot and tended to keep much to themselves. It was difficult to even start up a conversation. Perhaps this was in response to feeling somewhat under the microscope. However, this was very much in contrast to the other Canadian teams at the event who seemed very eager to chat with me when I did the rounds with our junior team members. BTW, their singer did an AMAZING job of their National Anthem. This was my first time competing with 1114 in a regional, so I don’t know if their reserved nature, on and off the field is typical. I also don’t know if the “apparent” stand-offish nature that I observed is real or imagined. I could understand their possible reluctance to show off their entire tech to other US teams. As a non-American (I grew up in Australia) I’ve experienced the fear more than once that the USA comes in with open arms and leaves with all your goodies :) I believe 1114 has won Chairmans several times, so they clearly understand the FIRST mission. Perhaps they could help us eliminate the “haters” by showing US a bit more about what makes THEM the team that they are (rather than just a great robot). I for one would love to find out what motivates them, and try to apply it to my own team. Next time I'll try harder to start a conversation. Phil. |
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It has admittedly been a long time since I posted anything on CD, but this blog has provoked a reaction in me unlike almost anything else I've read in a long time. As with everyone else, I will do my best to refrain from restating all the things already in this thread, but I do want to say THANK YOU, John. Thank you for, if nothing else, doing your own part to change the culture and to make this a present issue - the problem can't be fixed until we are all aware of it. Also, my humble apologies to Karthik and the rest of the Simbots for the way they were treated, here's hoping that NEVER happens again!
I would like to say that I am very glad to have been raised in FIRST by several top notch teams and mentors. When I started as a rookie in FIRST, I was immediately accepted into the community by teams 103 and 25. Here on CD I got to know some of our WFA winners, our UFH winners, and several other amazing students and mentors that really "got" the FIRST message and lived by the ethos of Gracious Professionalism. These teams, students, and mentors taught me about respect, compassion, teamwork, and encouraged me not just to build a successful robot, but to build a successful team. With one comes the other - powerhouse teams get their successful team using the robot as the medium, while other teams (like mine) use their teamwork and collaboration as the medium, and that begets the successful machine. I am often impressed, humbled, and proud of the powerhouse teams in FIRST because they are the ones that are constantly in their pits learning, teaching, struggling, and of course, having fun. They can be some of the best role models, just like our Chairman's Award winning teams. I am going to add on an example to Rich Kressly's post, where he talks about needing good strategists and scouters. This is ABSOLUTELY true. This year for the first time, my team (1089) made it to the finals at the New Jersey Regional. We believe we built a pretty good machine, but we also knew that there were certainly teams faster/better/stronger than us. We built our alliance for eliminations based on data and knowledge from our scouters and headed into eliminations against other alliances. We got smashed by 1923, 25, and 1860 in the first match of quarterfinals (124-22 - which was the national high score for Week 1, btw). I have considered for many years 25 to be among the ranks of the powerhouse teams, and I am always trying to play on par to their level. After our initial loss, our alliance's drive teams and a few mentors sat down and plotted out a new strategy, and we won - quarters, semis, and there we were in finals. We were eliminated in finals by another great alliance (1676, 2016, and 303), and as we were, our drive coach and I looked to each other and exclaimed "No regrets! What a great play, and what an amazing set of teams to lose to!" There was truly little to no disappointment by the mentors or students on my team - we came to work hard and play hard, regardless of the results, and our take-home message from the regional was that the weekend was fantastic, but we have improvements to make. I am often reminded of the year I returned to my pit at Championships to find my students having a dance party after their last match of the weekend, even though they had lost all but one match, AND fried their C-RIO. There were no comments of frustration, disappointment, or anger. Instead, the students were glad to have come as far as they did, and were talking anxiously about improvements they could make during the off-season. Also this year, the NJ Regional was visited by a team from California, and a member of their team wrote a letter to the judges - which they read aloud to the entire audience during the award ceremony. The member thanked the teams in NJ for being welcoming, supportive, and incorporating them into the community of the regional right off the bat. I was proud, in that moment, to call myself a FIRST mentor, and a member of NJ FIRST - I almost cried. As for my team, you can BET I will be reminding my students that the behavior demonstrated at the Pittsburgh Regional is wholly unacceptable, and reminding them why professionalism (all aspects of it) NEEDS to be the way they act. Thanks again, John, and everyone else working with him to make this change happen. |
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As embarrassing as it is to say this, during my Freshman and Sophomore year on 816 (And I would assume the years before), we were one of those teams that looked down on teams that were well funded, had ample resources and built strong machines year in and year out. My first exposure to robotics was Duel on the Delaware 2005 where some of the older team members swore up and down that Team XXX didn't build their robot and things like that.
At the end of the 2007 season, my class (Class of 2009) became the team leaders, and we WANTED to be like those upper tier teams. We knew that we didn't have the resources that they did, but we knew that we could build a robot that was as competitive - it just might not have been as pretty. In 2008 we were the #2 seed at NJ with an 8-0 record. From that point forward, the attitude on our team shifted and we began to respect those top tier teams, knowing that with enough hard work we could be as good as them. Interestingly enough, I haven't heard one student on our team accuse another team of not building their robot since 2008. (It took a little longer for some of the long-time mentors to break the habit) I think the way to Change the Culture (or at least get the ball rolling) is to show all teams two things: 1) "Engineer Built" Robots aren't always successful. 2) "Student Built" Robots can compete with, and win against Top-Tier teams - if the "Student Built" team works hard enough. Personally, I find it offensive that some Students will call any Top Tier robot Engineer built. Just because the robot was made with care, looks professional, and works well, doesn't mean that Students didn't build it. (On a semi-related note, I envy 1114, 148, 217, 254, 25, 2016, 2056, 111, 1625 etc in the same way that many people envy the best sports teams. I'd love to beat any one of them, and to be perfectly honest it's one of my goals - because if you can beat the best, then you are one of the best.) |
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Well I've been trying for about 10 years now to bring a team to your level but haven't been able to figure it out. Came close with 854 though. Kudos to you Karthik for getting it right.
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As a mentor I am a bit more calm when I go to the MI districts and its easy to see why some students are upset and act the way they do. First off they are High School students that interpret everything they see at face value and use assumptions or mentor input to fill in the gaps about the things they don't know. To make things easier I'm only going to speak of teams that built robots that function the way they are supposed to 70% of the time.
So when team 9999 builds a good bot that works and plays the game like it was designed to, faces a 217 254 and 33 alliance or just one powerhouse team like 1114 they lose and then get to thinking. First comes the simple thoughts about unique great ideas like 33's arm last year or 233's arm in 07, works and how team 9999 can build them. That's looking at robotics at face value which is ok. Where students on teams like 9999 go wrong is when they don't know how something works like 148's sheet metal or wildstangs drive trains. They then assume it was mentor built without knowing what those teams did in the first place to build those bots. You would think this is an easy fix with a little mentor guidance. But instead of mentors doing research and understanding what the power house teams do and inform their students on what to do. They take the easy way out and say a mentor did it. TL;DR Students will be students, It's the mentors job to do the right thing. |
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It's really unfortunate when this happens to a team, yet even more so when it comes from the non-FRC community. While we should strive to change the culture of FIRST as has been stated, I think we should be glad it only happens in the closed world of FIRST for most teams who have high-visibility in their local communities and regionals. The rest of the world, with its vast majority of opinions and options, is a far more insidious place.
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It is obvious that 1114 strives for a high standard of excellence on and off the field. The tragic thing is that people seem to believe the goal of excellence on the field is in conflict with the ideals of FIRST. They couldn’t be more wrong. To illustrate my point, let me describe my team’s experience working with 1114.
As some of you may know, my team (2041) was lucky enough to be picked by 1114 and 469 at the championship last year. In our very first match together, we cracked our center drive wheels in a shoving match with 1732. After the match, a mentor from 1114 named Jeff helped us inspect our robot for damage. The conversation went something like this: Me: “It looks like we damaged some of our wheels.” <Jeff takes a look> Jeff: “Well, those are wheels KOP wheels, we have plenty of those. What will it take to fix the problem?” Me “Well to replace the wheel all you need to do is…..” Jeff “No no, what will it take to FIX the problem” I was shocked. The elimination rounds run at a fast pace. Here Jeff was insisting that we find some way to reinforce the wheels, fabricate it, and install it all between curie divisional elimination matches. I would have been ok with a solution that would have survived the elims. 1114 wanted to solve the problem for good. More importantly, this mentality permeated every student behind that curtain. Every student became committed to the idea of making us better, even this late in the game. In short, every student was inspired in a way I have not seen before in FIRST. This is what 1114 brings to the community. Photo evidence of the fix implemented: Before: http://www.flickr.com/photos/daniele...7623898298752/ After: http://www.flickr.com/photos/daniele...7623898298752/ Another great example comes later that day. In the last match of the finals, 2041 spent half the match stuck in a goal. When we freed ourselves, we clumsily blocked two more of our partners goals. In short, 2041 felt as though it cost the alliance the championship. It was obvious that 1114 wanted to win. They had to feel disappointed. No one can deny that. However, when it was all said and done, they went out of their way to thank us and encourage us. Rather than dwell on their own disappointment, they helped a relatively inexperienced team cope with its disappointment. I was touched by their sincerity. If that is not gracious professionalism, I don’t know what is. It’s been said before, but apparently it needs to be repeated: Get to know the powerhouse teams. Learn how they operate, how they problem-solve, and how they act. Not only will you be pleasantly surprised, you will be inspired. 1114 is a perfect example of this. It saddens me that they are so badly misunderstood. |
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When I see a well organized team with an efficient, elegant robot, I am motivated to learn more so that I can provide greater opportunities for my own students. Each year, our students and mentors seek to learn and improve through our own experiences and from the work of other teams. I ask my students to learn from others' robots and team organization and take the good and use it. Wallowing is self pity and insulting the hard work of highly successful teams is damaging for everyone; Nothing is inspirational about it. This type of behavior should be confronted by all in an attempt to elimate it entirely. |
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I became involved with FIRST in 2008 (yes, that makes me a noob). It was 1114 that really inspired me to stay involved. I was green, and knew nothing about FIRST that year. We got to go to championships where I saw 1114 and their awesome robot. I realized that our robot had the POTENTIAL to be just as good, if the execution had been better. I was happy that we come away with the Xerox creativity award that year. I also came away with the determination to improve. I knew that our team had the ability to be as good as anybody else, we just needed the experience and leadership. We have come a long way, but we are not yet at the "powerhouse" level. What I can say is that we have improved every year. Last year we had a blast, and did well, playing head to head in the quarterfinals on Galileo against another powerhouse, the Thunderchickens. I hope to get the opportunity to play against (or better yet, with) a powerhouse team again this year, hopefully with different results.
Is our robot 100% designed and built by student? No. Do the students have 100% say-so over all decisions? yes. Do the mentors help with design and build? Absolutely. Are we focused on winning? You bet. Winning is the motivation for excellence. Who wants to work as hard as you can, and not do everything you can to win? This past Saturday we spent 14 hours at the school modifying the robot because we came up with an idea that would make us better. We had an excellent bot Saturday morning, but we decided it was worth the effort to make it better. The students knew the challenge involved, and were willing to put in the time and effort make it a little better. The motivation for that willingness is teams like Simbotics that always have a great robot. Don't look at them as spoilers, look to them for inspiration. Do your best to beat them. I like to think they will respect you for it. |
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Be proud of what you can do with whatever means you're given, and strive to do one better next year. Remember that competition is a CELEBRATION of the journey you took to get there. Every team's journey (no matter if they're a powerhouse or a "regular" team) is just as long and stressful. Every student is equally vested in the process, in their machine and team, and that in itself should be empowering. As long as you're doing your best, you should be having a great time! |
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It's interesting how a consensus is forming around the attitude of the adult leaders of teams and the FIRST community and that they make the different in the shaping and changing of attitudes within the team. Yet many self-proclaimed 'student led' teams never give credit to that aspect of their team or accept it. Truth is, mentors/adult leaders make or break the program, on the field and off the field.
The idea of adults and students working together towards achieving a goal, beginning within the team, but capable of moving outwardly in stunning directions - is foreign to many, including teams. As new members enter the teams/regions, it is up to the teams/regions to have developed training programs that educate the students and the adults. It's an iterative process and if it isn't in place, situations like Pittsburgh arise. It's not just the robot that requires continual improvement - it is the team and the team philosophy/attitude. That becomes very obvious in situations like the ones discussed in this thread. Jane |
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The other thing I find in the "powerhouse" teams is that, no matter how good they get, they continue to learn from their community. Their own pride/ego is always in check and they never stop considering that there may be great ideas out there they can use.
Ex 1: Just this year, 148 (through JVN's blog) tells us that perhaps the best part of their manipulator design cam directly from the 2007 Team 67 robot. Ex 2: Team 1114 in 2006. They had already been exceedingly successful on the field and with awards. It was the same year they manufactured a part for 1712's rookie robot and then delivered to to PA from Canada! Yet, anything but full of themselves they wanted to improve their chances with Chairman's. They were certainly a worthy team, but hungered to know what I knew/thought about it since I had been with 103 in 2003 and spent time as a Sr. Mentor as well. So, over instant messenger, for maybe a 2 hour period I brain dumped to Karthik everything I knew about the award, the entry, maintaining the team's integrity, giving his team the best chance to win, but doing it the "right" way as well. This involved some review of their previous work and pushing some files in his direction. Mind you this all took place after midnight the way I recall. Karthik then turned around, took the info to his team, and they implemented from the lessons learned where they could. Egoless. Hungry. Work ethic. 1114 happened to win a regional CA that year. Because they deserved to, because they worked at it, and because they learned from others. While still on the field with the trophy, Karthik pulled out his phone, dialed my number, and I heard a crying student say "thank you." Class act. I have no idea how much I helped them, but I can tell you that the feeling I had inside from that phone call was nearly equal to my own team winning the CCA in 2003. |
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We are FIRST. Our mission is “to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders”. I fail to see how deprecating, denigrating, and downright boorish behavior towards any individual or team helps us accomplish our mission. We represent such a tiny minority in the world. Accordingly, we need to all be pulling in the same direction if we are going to realize our stated vision. We should be celebrating every potential new science and technology leader regardless of which number is on their t-shirt.
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I regularly see this anti-powerhouse view within my own team, the whole "professionally- versus student-built" argument, and I regularly try to correct them, and point out that programs such as 1114's, 217's, 2056's, 148's et al, still do what FIRST is all about: inspiring students to embark on a life journey in changing the culture, by becoming scientists, engineers, technologists and mathematicians, they simply do it in different ways to how teams like ours do. Indeed, the programs of these powerhouses inspire people well beyond the walls of their own schools. Big name sponsors with deep pockets, laser-cutting, sheet-metal stamping, and AutoCAD/Inventor drawn designs do not a dominating robot make. The members of 1075 should be well aware of this, since in the off-season of 2008, after our robot was a complete flop during the regular season, we set out to be competitive in the off-season by copying some of the best design elements of 1114's world-champion robot, and adding our own twist to it. Its no real secret that we did this; indeed, Karthik had been notified by text-message within minutes of our arrival at the first event we went to with it. I'm not ashamed, imitation is the highest form of flattery. We went on to win at that event, and the other offseason we went to that year. For me, this was the confirmation I needed to prove that it does not take all those things to have a winning robot. What is needed to have a winning robot, is a winning design, coupled with some mechanical reliability (Despite winning at Kettering Kickoff 2008, we did not play in the finals, due to a drivetrain-destroying event, redesigned in time for Brunswick Eruption). I think its fairly undeniable that Simbot SS (1114's 2008 robot) was a winning design. It won 2 GM Industrial Design awards, 3 regionals, and Championship. (According to FIRSTs website, anyway) While Simbot SS was a beautiful sheet-metal machine, worthy of the awards it received, as well as the envy, and no doubt received its fair share of this "well, thats a professionally-built robot" nonsense, our implementation of the key design elements of it was far less pretty, far less costly, far less well known, but our robot won the only two events it went to. What is needed to win FRC events is a mechanically-reliable winning design, and drivers that know how to drive their robot. ANY team, regardless of resources is capable of producing a mechanically-reliable robot. The key to this is to not attempt something that is beyond your means. Know what you can achieve, and work within it. ANY team is capable of producing a winning design. This does NOT require anything more than brainpower, and time. ANY team is capable of having drivers that know how to drive their robot. The key is practice. I often see robots that are quite capable of doing well have matches chalked up in the L column due to a lack of driver-experience. Whether this means building a second robot so they can practice between ship and competition, or whether this means building a SIMPLER robot, so you can be finished earlier in the build, I leave up to you and your resources. |
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If we are sharing 1114 stories then I will share my "this is why they're so good" moment about 1114.
My team was at IRI, the game was Overdrive. I had never had much exposure to 1114 other than a brief conversation with Karthik on the floor at The Championship so I really knew nothing about them other than their great bots. We took our bot to the practice floor and there was 1114, they were tweaking their autonomous mode. They had by far the best bot that year with an amazing autonomous mode but there they were taking the time to squeeze out just a little bit more. They never stopped trying to improve even when they were already great. That's why they are the best and that's the story I will gladly share with anyone I hear disparaging them. |
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I'll share a story about the kind of students Simbotics raises.
Atlanta 2010- MORT had designed one of the worst robots in our team's history (many things during build season just did not work out). Chris Lyddiatt from 1114 knew we were not having a competitive year, so he asked if he could spend his time in Atlanta with our team. Chris was by far the most helpful person our team has ever worked with from another team. His skill and knowledge finally had us using our swerve drive correctly which had given us issues all season. He helped design a new hanging system as well. Within the three days of competition, our pit crew and mentors became very good friends with Chris and came to admire his level of professionalism and knowledge. We all hung out together afterwards too, he even popped on a MORT t-shirt. A quote right from his thank you to our team: "I would just like to thank everyone on MORT for welcoming me with open arms to the team. I had an amazing time during the Championships and am looking forward to more competitions with you guys. If anytime I can help anyone out with anything shoot me a message and i will gladly help. Thanks again Chris L" How often do you hear someone thanking you after they fix the functionality of your robot? If you ever dare to think these students don't know what is going on in their teams, or that a robot is "mentor built," go talk to them, ask them for help. When 11's veteran mentors and students all showed Chris thanks, he thanked us back for a wonderful Championship experience, even with a middle of the pack team like ours. These kids know a lot more than you know and will be more respected than most others ever will. |
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I have FTC and FLL tickets to Nationals, and I know you have an FRC ticket. You going to be there? |
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I've started to notice students from other teams talk this way about Chairman's teams.
I know personally from students talking about 503's chairmans to my face. There’s a mentality out there that if you are well funded, you can just pay your way to the top. Teams can buy resources, advertisement- use money to do all the outreach for them. We actually got criticized for having a major sponsor for 11 years? Somehow, it gave us an undeniable edge for community outreach because of our funding? It doesn’t feel good at all... |
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I can buy the argument that it's a bit intimidating to talk to them in the pit. They are all very driven and busy, and don't necessarily have the time to embrace their crowd with open arms. It's not a flaw of 1114's nor does it even begin to justify what happened to them, but on a busy day like Thursday I could understand why someone might get a negative impression.
I'll contrast that to an interaction I had with 217 at the Championship. I walked over to get a picture of their robot. Their driver at the time basically invited me in, proceeding to give me a nice 10 minute tour of their robot. They flipped it over, turned it on, showed how all the subsystems worked including the pincher and nonadrive, and talked about their design tradeoffs. It was like asking for a small glass of water and being given a 40 gallon drum. I would reach some conclusion and say that teams could be even more proactive about being outgoing at competitions if they don't want to be hated, but that honestly shouldn't be necessary. Plus, 1114 really does get it. I happened to be visiting the St. Catharines / Niagara Falls region last summer and 1114 offered me a tour of their facilities before I could even ask. If that's not professionalism and going above and beyond, I don't know what is. The most surprising thing about the visit, though, is that Simbotics turned out to really be not all that different from any other team. They worked out of a school shop with a handful of mills, lathes, and other equipment. They had worked their way into getting a decent work space, but there were a lot of closets and hallways; I bet they probably started off with just the little shop out back. 1114's shop (and school) is virtually identical to 2791's. I'd say we're a little better off. 1114 has everything they did because they work harder. More sponsors, recruiting engineers to help, the IFI partnership. The best part of the tour? Not one mentor was present. None. The meeting I was at was 100% students. The students ran the tour and explained the details of every last thing I asked about. It was impressive, to say the least. |
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Though my team (86) only competes in the Florida Regional every year, I pay attention to the powerhouse teams because they are just awesome to watch. Seeing these teams at the championship or even by looking at some of the teams at our regional, it is so amazing to see the technology that gets put into their robot. It is truly inspiring to see some of the things that are put into a robot (my favorite is 148 this year) and it drives me to try and beat them. I'm that kind of competitive person that likes being the underdog, and I love that they bring out amazing competition every year to fight against. That being said, I am also jealous of these teams and there are a few things in FIRST culture that do need to be changed.
1 - This is a specific example that I will generalize later - I wish my team had a CNC machine... you lucky few...your robots are just beautiful. WOW /jealousy to the extreme. People that saw our robot this year at Florida regional up close may have noticed our lime-green duct tape used to "powdercoat" our claw and minibot deployment mechanism. The technological gap between some teams is a big portion of why some don't think that some robots are "student-built." When my team would spend 6 weeks on our 1960's era (I think thats the year...REALLY old is all I can say about it as a student) mill to cut out a piece that takes a laser CNC a day, the difference in manual labor is blatant. A few years ago, some other team's mentor came and pointed to our robot and noted that some our welds looked sloppy. My mentor Dave looked over and commented that their robot's welds looked pretty nice and also asked who did the welds. It turned out that a student's parents owned a welding company that did their welds for them, which is nice, but our robot is student welded and we have never broken a weld. The major point of this is that there is not a laser-cut (get it? hahaha) definition of "student-built" or "mentor-built." 2. The role of a mentor on a team is not something that can nor should be standardized. Our head mentor is there to teach the mechanical equipment, not to mention letting 40-50 kids use his house and personal backyard workshop to build robots. Our mentors are there to teach during the fall and watch over for safety during the build season. This year, a mentor came up to our team before alliance selection and began asking our drive coach about our robot and strategy. Our mentor said, "You're talking to the wrong person, I'm the drive coach because its a nice place to watch a match from" and directed the questions to me. 3. Finally, I'm a little confused by the student intelligence discussion. Seems besides the point when the discussion is about "mentor-built" not "you students cant do that." With CNC machines, nothing looks even mentor built, much less student built (if you have a kid with laser-eyes milling out your robot, then I'd be REALLY jealous). Last year's codriver is going to Caltech right now, this year's is accepted into Stanford and is waiting on MIT to decide, and our dictator (elections are too much of a hassle) has the best scholarship to Georgia Tech waiting for him, but is also waiting for MIT. Previously, we've had two students go to Princeton, one is at Yale, and one went to MIT (in his junior year in high school). These are all members that I know personally (I'm sure there are others that I'm unaware of) so I would beg to differ if any argument is made that a team is a powerhouse because of overly intelligent kids. The point of all this is: to the people that don't like the powerhouse teams - be inspired by them and the technology that gets put into their robot. If nothing else, make a goal of bringing a stronger robot to competition. The U.S. was built on innovation and that's the point of FIRST, innovate and surprise them. To all you powerhouses: If you have an extra CNC machine that our head mentor can afford the power costs for, let me know! To the point: this post shows almost no attempt to understand the teams involved. You should understand how privileged your team is resources compared to others and you may understand their feelings a little bit more. Finally, to all the people at pit that booed and acted childishly at pit, you should know better as a part of FIRST. |
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@Chris is me: I too have toured the 1114 shop, and was pleasantly surprised to have much the same reaction. I do know however, that much of their competition robot is outsourced to sponsors machine shops (IFI for the sheetmetal, for instance), and that they have (at least in past, if not presently) access to a closed Niagara District School Board school's gymnasium to set up a practice field in, which they don't have to tear down during build/competition season. I know they have also made this space available for local teams to use in past years.
Am I envious? Absolutely. Do I think they should be hindered or chastised for their awesomeness? Certainly not. |
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I believe that from 2004 onward (?) their robot was machined almost exclusively in house, using sponsors for parts like their sheetmetal 2006 ball tower. It sounds exactly like how my own team builds robots. |
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To be honest, I used to be a young and dumb student who thought the same thing. Then I finally had the chance my junior year of high school to compete in nationals. This is where I was proved wrong!
Boy was I ever wrong. Some the teams previously mentioned took the time to explain to me how they went about doing things, and I was impressed. Most of these "dominant" teams (and I use the word dominant lightly) are year-round teams. There is no off-season or start and stop. It is a continuous process. These students have the luxury having fantastic mentors, and yes maybe a lot more resources than us. So be it. I learned so muh that weekend in Atlanta, and I was proved wrong, and really look up to those teams now. Thanks JVN. |
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Probably those people who Booed 1114 and Canada were probably people uneducated in the FIRST values. They may have been students that came down to get bonus points, instead of being actual team members. I feel that they, the teachers that give the students the choice of bonus, should choose the students that they feel can act appropriate throughout the event. These comments should not happen to anyone who participates in FIRST.
Team 1114, I feel someone should appologize for these people's behaviors, even though I do not know who did it I am sorry that someone did this to you and I hope you do not be bothered like this again. Saworms |
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I also remember an instance in the 2009 GTR Finals, when the Head Ref made the decision to not allow 188 to play in Finals Match 2 after 188/610/1305 had upset 2056/1114/2185 in Finals Match 1, and they were about 10 seconds late returning from a timeout to repair 610's manipulator. Karthik, and a number of others were stunned to hear what sounded like nearly the entire stadium booing the decision. It was evident that people didn't like what ultimately amounted to handing the 1114/2056/2185 alliance Finals match 2 on a silver platter, but the way it was shown was downright embarrassing to the Canadian FIRST community.
Karthik was so stunned by this that he forgot to have the alliances do the traditional handshake prior to FM2. |
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You don't get to see that stuff on a webcast and so teams fill in the blanks on their own, but the reality is that no team is building robots that we can't manage to make ourselves. We all have different capabilities and it'd definitely be implement certain mechanisms with more/different/better resources, but there are always ways around the roadblocks. |
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I can understand how people/teams 'hate' the elite teams. Me and my team's rookie year was 2006. At both our events that year were on the 8th and 7th alliance, and got absolutely killed by 111 in the first round of each event. We had no chance at coming close to beating 111, who went on to win each event. After the events and seeing a polished, professional robot, a huge team with a ton adult mentors on the field accepting their awards and Raul yelling at the drive team, it was easy to say "yeah, 111 has Motorola build their robot for them". I really felt Wildstang cheated. Thankfully, is not really my personality to boo or do things similar to what happened at Pittsburgh. Obviously, I don't feel that way now (even after they absolutely dominated Wisconsin again this year). I wish I knew when and what made my opinion change.
Walking back to the pit after Saturday's award ceremony this weekend a student from a team I respect and 'gets it', said something like Wildstang should feel ashamed and didn't deserve to win because no students touched their robot. I said something like, "nah, I'm not sure I agree with that, I'm sure their students put a ton of effort in." After reading this thread, I wish I would have taken a stronger stance and encouraged him to talk to their students about their robot. I do agree its up to the experienced teams, mentors and students to squash any of these negative thoughts and actions. Teams like 111 and 1114 are what makes FIRST special. They provide an unthinkable amount of inspiration. Without 111, 71, 70 and 494, who were the best teams at my first events, I'm not sure I would be as involved in FIRST as I am right now. They continue to inspire and motivate 1732 to improve. After watching 111 this weekend, we are determined to improve to get to their level. Thanks 111, 1114 and all the other elite teams that inspire and push teams to improve. |
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This is really unfortunate and I hope the mentors on all teams give their team a serious talk about this kind of behavior.
From my own experiences with COMETS Robotics, I have had to face similar criticism from teams. Last year was our rookie year, but we had three members (myself included) that were veteran FRC members from another team. So when we had an incredible amount of success, we made it to Einstein, there were many teams who told us (sometimes to our faces) that we were a "rookie" team. I put it in quotes because they were implying that our team didn't deserve the amount of awards we received. So I can understand the terrible behavior that 1114 experienced, and it's my hope that this kind of attitude ceases to exist in the FRC. |
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There's not much that hasn't been said here already but I've noticed one prominent theme in this thread-an outpouring of support for 1114 specifically because people know that mentors don't build their robot, that it is a partnership of students and adults.
Who cares who builds the robot? If 1114 or any other team wanted to have their robot be built entirely by adults that would be no better or worse than a team that has theirs built entirely by students, or anywhere else in the spectrum. Who are we to judge how or why a team does what they do? If it inspires their kids then it should be good enough for anyone. |
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It's unfortunate that the student you referred to has those feelings. I wish that he/she would have stopped by our pit after match 56. In that match, there was a screw in the supershifter that started to work its way out. This caused the robot to get stuck in low gear for most of the match. After the match, we ran a few tests and Raul assessed the problem based on what he saw and told the students to fix it. Within 20-30 minutes, the students on their own had the drive module off, had the gearbox disassembled, fixed, put back together, and reinstalled on the robot. I should be over it after 10 years in this program, but it really bothers me when people think that our students aren't involved. It's extremely disrespectful and dangerous to jump to conclusions about what students do on the team as well as what they get out of it. If anyone reading this has this view or knows somebody that does, send them to our pits at Midwest or Championship. I'd love for them to spend some time with our students to see what they know. |
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A good friend told me:
"Great thread, it is cool to see so many people piling on... too bad it probably won't change anything because Chief Delphi is such a small part of FIRST in general." Yep. That is the problem. We all need to do our part to pay this forward. The kind of negative behavior is unacceptable and we all need to do our part (especially as mentors within our own teams) to stop it. The only way to make a noticeable shift in OUR culture is if there are a lot of small shifts. 148 will be sporting "Be Professional" buttons for the rest of our events this year. -John |
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Doesn't it all boil down to showing "Gracious Professionalism" to the 'powerhouse' teams, as well as those who struggling - and everyone in between? Maybe it's harder to be gracious to a team that kicks your butt, but no one said it would be easy. It's easy to help out a team that you "know" you're going to beat anyway, but we should all be willing to share our expertise, parts, and aloha spirit with all the other teams. How many of us (most, I would suggest - and hope) would provide a helpful suggestion or needed part to a team that we're about to be up against in a regional final match? Would you? I hope so.
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Taken further, communities that don't understand FRC and see it as a type of science fair will do the same thing, discounting the value of the students and judging the value of the mentors in unfavorable and untrue ways. Jane |
Re: Another Culture Change
Gracious professionalism does not call attention to transgressions (even attention that leaves "perpetrators" anonymous)- GP publicly calls attention to positive behavior.
Jealousy is real - it can not be invalidated just because it is judged morally wrong. Having a thread that makes moral judgements about those that feel they have less than others does not serve a great purpose. Lecturing people not to be jealous from the perspective of already having a lot generally falls on deaf ears. Those that have more resources should be thankful and feel lucky and privileged to be part of a powerhouse. Almost all also feel greater responsibility to give to other teams, even without other teams asking for help. FIRST is foremost about generosity of spirit: competition is just a tool. Students and mentors and families can see the disparity in resources between teams. Some resort to trying to make themselves feel better by imagining malicious or braggart behavior on the part of some members of a powerhouse. They can sometimes take tiny anecdotes out of context and let their imaginations run wild. Gracious Professionalism is about calling yourself out, not calling out the transgressions of others. It's not about calling attention to being wronged or attention to others like you being wronged, it's about embracing life as it comes. What is more important? Trying to stop a false rumor at a competition or trying to help a team onto a more rationale track? (I view negative gender/racial/ethnic comments as totally unacceptable and need to be nipped in the bud with zero tolerance) But those are not anywhere in the same space as noticing and commenting on how much students actually touch and repair a robot during a competition. (I think the actual facts point to most powerhouse teams have many times more well-trained students than the weaker teams do). The GP thing to do is to be as generous as you can and be as anti-judgmental as possible whether you are a powerhouse or a fledgling team. If you notice a team with a bad attitude at a competition, what is the right GP response? Being overtly generous at the competition? Or making a series of generous overtures to the bad attitude team outside of the competition (and across many years) without ever letting them know you think they have/had a bad attitude? Once you have befriended them, they will likely learn on their own to have a better attitude. Once you are friends then you can also more easily approach subjects that you have differing perspectives on. All without ever calling them out, and certainly not calling them out in a public forum (even anonymously). OK, enough of my own judgementalism. Let me know where I got it wrong. |
Re: Another Culture Change
Let me preface this by saying that I DO think less of teams like 1114 for not building their own robot. I will always be more proud of, and cheer more for a student built robot. However, except in the context of this thread, I would never say it. The level of dedication that teams like 1114, 217, 2056, 148 etc... is just as much as other teams. They just put it in other areas. What is ridiculous is that people would do such rude things as mentioned at Pittsburgh regional. No matter how I feel about how they built their robot, they still designed it, and deserve the award. I am utterly sickened by something like this going on in FIRST. If they were the ones behind the robot, and inspiring it, then they are deserving. On the other hand, if they sat by while other people made their robot, then I have no respect for them. I have a feeling it is not the second option.
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Re: Another Culture Change
Pedestals.
If you consistently win, and time and time again build great robots, you are on a pedestal. Not your fault – others put you there. Since you are on a pedestal, you are scrutinized more closely than other teams. Part of the problem is that “haters” of “powerhouse teams” sometimes DO see these teams fail to conduct themselves with grace – or even fail to work within the rules. Powerhouse teams are on a pedestal and what people see and experience becomes multiplied both good and bad. Everyone here has asked how we can change our FIRST culture. Perhaps this might work: What if immediately after an incident (say after a booing during a match introduction that is reported to the “powerhouse team”) some members of that team went directly to the “haters” and began a conversation or invited the haters to come to their pit to share ideas? What if the powerhouse team members came by and asked “hater” team members about their robot and their experience? What if they really made an attempt to show the “haters” who they really are? What if they actually helped them compete? This year it is directly possible – lend your minibot. What if each powerhouse team adopted just one of the “haters” and worked to change their mind? What if each powerhouse team partnered with a team that was really struggling and worked to build their program? Is it going to far to ask if powerhouse teams considered – perhaps after they’ve already won a regional or two – picking a weaker team, a “hater” team to be in an alliance and really worked together? If you think that the “powerhouse teams” shouldn’t have to work to change the attitude of others – you are wrong. Those who are fortunate enough to be part of the teams that are really great are the ones who are MOST able to bring about change. They are on the pedestal and everyone is looking to them. -Mr. Van Coach, Robodox |
Re: Another Culture Change
Quote:
Just because the team has leverage to waterjets, cnc machines, lathes, and mills doesn't mean the robot isn't student built. |
Re: Another Culture Change
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But if a team did do that, then I would. |
Re: Another Culture Change
Being on an entirely student run team, the student/ mentor relationship is important and I wish my team had it but we do not. But that isnt what matters. In life there are always going to be people with more resources, money and help then you. All that matters is can you over come it? Yes you may have to have longer work hours and yes your bot might me simpler then others but can it go out and compete? And are people learning while building it? If yes then there are no issues.
Having worked with 1114 at Brunswick Eruption last year what I saw of them was all positive. They were professional and so organized it made everything easier. I saw students working on the bot and mentors over seeing and directing them the way it should be. Congratulations team 1114 and Good Luck to you in the future! |
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