Chief Delphi

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   Regional Competitions (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
-   -   A plea for a quieter pit area (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93574)

EricH 26-03-2011 03:11

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Find the head safety advisor (my dad might know who that is at L.A.) and ask him. If it comes from higher up, find out who--and make sure to write them a very nice letter explaining that because they are telling everybody to do this, everybody else is going deaf due to the increased noise level, which means that they can't hear stuff that's more dangerous than a robot, say, a forklift in their workplace. If it's from the head safety advisor, see the contents of the letter I mentioned above, and ask if they have a noise monitor in the pit area or that can be transferred over to the pit area. IIRC, someone brought this up for the competition area a year or two ago, and decibel meters were brought to some competitions to check, with results that said "some areas are too loud, we need to fix this".

You could also, when the Safety Advisors instruct you to yell "Robot", do exactly what they say--as loud as possible, near their ears. They may quickly see the noise contribution that yelling robot makes to the buzz of robot motors, the machine shop, hand/cordless tools, conversations...

gblake 26-03-2011 19:49

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1045266)
... when the Safety Advisors instruct you to yell "Robot", do exactly what they say--as loud as possible, near their ears. ...

Best advice in this thread yet. I'm grinning from ear to ear.

Blake
PS: I was just at the DC regional and didn't hear a single "ROBOT!" yell.

I wasn't in the pits much, but when I was, I only heard an occasional spoken warning, and they were at the volume they should have been - as loud as common sense would dictate, but no louder than that.

There were also a few "Robot coming through"s and "Excuse me"s heard. All were appropriate and useful.

1986titans 26-03-2011 22:37

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
It seems most of the problems are coming from regionals where space is an issue. I didn't notice too many loud calls of "Robot!!!!" at GKC, and there shouldn't have been too many anyways because we had an amazing amount of space. I do remember that we politely said "Excuse us" moving to and from the field a few times, but there was never an issue of gridlock.

Duke461 26-03-2011 22:43

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1986titans (Post 1045499)
It seems most of the problems are coming from regionals where space is an issue. I didn't notice too many loud calls of "Robot!!!!" at GKC, and there shouldn't have been too many anyways because we had an amazing amount of space. I do remember that we politely said "Excuse us" moving to and from the field a few times, but there was never an issue of gridlock.

Agreed. Not every regional has a 10x15 pit area with 20 ft wide isles. I know Boilermaker didn't

wilsonmw04 26-03-2011 22:59

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1986titans (Post 1045499)
It seems most of the problems are coming from regionals where space is an issue. I didn't notice too many loud calls of "Robot!!!!" at GKC, and there shouldn't have been too many anyways because we had an amazing amount of space. I do remember that we politely said "Excuse us" moving to and from the field a few times, but there was never an issue of gridlock.

I would say your mileage will vary depending on the regional you are attending. At the VA regional, they put the scrolling stats and scores on flat screens right next to the entrance to the queuing line. Folks get so worried about looking at their rankings they forget to look behind them and walk into robots/carts/ other people. Sometimes a loud "ROBOT!" will pull them back to the here and now. Gridlock IS an issue there.

Aren_Hill 26-03-2011 23:12

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Had a safety inspector tell us to be quite vocal when moving the robot at midwest...

sanddrag 27-03-2011 00:22

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
I see it as a safety hazard more than a safety practice. Here's why.

The problem I see is that it's being yelled so often, and so many times without purpose, that two things are happening:

1. People hear it so often they are tuning it out. It has less meaning now. It's like the boy who cried wolf.
2. Teams are gaining a false sense of entitlement that just because they yell "ROBOT!", other people will immediately move out of their way, and they proceed forward quickly whether the path is clear or not.

wilsonmw04 27-03-2011 08:39

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1045572)
I see it as a safety hazard more than a safety practice. Here's why.

The problem I see is that it's being yelled so often, and so many times without purpose, that two things are happening:

1. People hear it so often they are tuning it out. It has less meaning now. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

couldn't that be said for any noise making safety device (horns, sirens or what not)? By your logic, anything that makes noise or flashes a light on a regular basis is a safety hazard.

Safety experts are telling us to do it. I'm not sure why this practice is a bad thing. It's might be a tad annoying for some, but I'd rather have a few rolled eyes in my general direction than having to pull someone off the floor because they just ran into my team's robot on the way to queuing.

Carolyn_Grace 27-03-2011 11:50

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1045628)
couldn't that be said for any noise making safety device (horns, sirens or what not)? By your logic, anything that makes noise or flashes a light on a regular basis is a safety hazard.

Safety experts are telling us to do it. I'm not sure why this practice is a bad thing. It's might be a tad annoying for some, but I'd rather have a few rolled eyes in my general direction than having to pull someone off the floor because they just ran into my team's robot on the way to queuing.

I disagree with your logic here. Noise making safety devices are often designed to emit an irritating noise that you can't ignore. Whereas, a regular human voice yelling the same word over and over again can become something that you just don't notice after a while...it just becomes part of the "white noise" around you.

Also, a noisemaker doesn't go off every ten seconds, to a point where you can start ignoring it. Usually when a safety alarm goes off, it's not something that you are used to. Like fire alarms, tornado warnings, a truck backing up...it is an out of the ordinary noise. But when someone yells "Robot, Robot, ROBOT" over and over again, it becomes an ordinary noise, something that you stop noticing.

The safety advisors are only human. And in my experience they often are not correct on some of the "Safe Methods" that they tell teams to follow. For example: telling our team that it's not safe to have sandwich wrappers on our toolbox and not allowing there to be bottled water in the pit area because it could cause a fire if spilled on a robot. (Hello, Disney Championship days of robots getting RAINED on).

I don't think the point of yelling "ROBOT" is to keep people from running in to robots...robots are pretty big and hard to miss. I think people are yelling "ROBOT" is so that they can push their way through people blocking their paths. What this thread is trying to point out is that it is much more effective to have someone walk in front of your robot and *politely* ask nicely, "Excuse me, may we get by with our robot?" Or "Excuse me, we have to get to our match."

JaneYoung 27-03-2011 12:22

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace (Post 1045676)
Also, a noisemaker doesn't go off every ten seconds, to a point where you can start ignoring it.

By the 3rd day of competition, a quieter voice can often gain more attention than a loud obnoxious one.

I saw far more dangerous set-ups for the robot traffic incurred by the guests than I did by the robots on their way to queuing. My question is, why do the competitors have to contend with this? If baby strollers are not allowed in the pits, then why do the guests with baby strollers take up valuable time arguing with the safety advisor when told to move out of the way of the lane of robot traffic immediately and remove the baby stroller from the pits? Why does everyone have to be involved in unsnarling constant tangles in the lane? Which is what it should be - a robot traffic lane. No more, no less.

It's a dumb waste of time and energy that could be managed so easily.

Jane

P.S. Here's my thinking on guests. They can be welcomed in the pits but they have to have an understanding of what that means. Scenario: new mentors with new families - how much prior training/understanding of the competition pits has been given to the mentors so that they can share that understanding/information with the families? Parents/relatives/friends of students and mentors on the team - same thing. How much training and information has been given to the guests so that they understand the value, importance, and reasons for the pits' existence? Many relatives, etc., are used to things like science fairs and museums, where they are free to roam and not be an obstruction in anyone's path. No one likes to be told to get out of the way or to leave the pits or to MOVE! No one likes feeling stupid or that they are in the way or that their shoes are bad. How much effort on the part of each team would it take to kick the training/flow of information up a notch? It could start with visits to the team's build session, teaching the guests how students and mentors conduct themselves in the shop and why that is important. If leaflets are to be handed out, they should be handed out there - explaining the reason for safety glasses, hair pulled back, and closed shoes. It could also be helpful if guests are given the information containing the team name, number, and where they are from - not just: 'come to the competition on Saturday - it's cool.'

Venues could scale back on times that the pits are open to the guests and the teams could have ambassadors to help with the guests/flow of traffic, etc. Lanes could be identified with tape on the floor. Teams are very good at following tape lines and guests could learn to respect those tape lines. :)

Nobody has to be the bad guy and get yelled at - constantly.

GaryVoshol 27-03-2011 12:29

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1045628)
couldn't that be said for any noise making safety device (horns, sirens or what not)?

The police don't run their siren every time they are moving. The backup beeper on the garbage truck only sounds when the vehicle is backing. If those warnings were continual, people would begin to ignore them too.

People yelling ROBOT constantly makes it just blend in with all the other noise.

Vikesrock 27-03-2011 12:36

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace (Post 1045676)
I don't think the point of yelling "ROBOT" is to keep people from running in to robots...robots are pretty big and hard to miss. I think people are yelling "ROBOT" is so that they can push their way through people blocking their paths. What this thread is trying to point out is that it is much more effective to have someone walk in front of your robot and *politely* ask nicely, "Excuse me, may we get by with our robot?" Or "Excuse me, we have to get to our match."

Exactly. "Excuse us, robot coming through please" worked quite well for us at Peachtree on the occasions the path was not clear and sounded much better than the wail of "ROBOT" that our safety captain was instructed to use.

JaneYoung 27-03-2011 12:38

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1045689)
People yelling ROBOT constantly makes it just blend in with all the other noise.

I would think they would want to look at ways to lower unnecessary noise/levels.

Jane

Boydean 27-03-2011 14:39

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
I can tell you that over the years I've become numb to the yelling of "ROBOT". Its just something I expect to hear when entering the pits.

I think the core issue here is not the noise of yelling "ROBOT!" (although that still is an issue), but the fact that there are so many people standing in the middle of aisles without any thought as what their doing. I find it incredible dangerous when we have guests and even team member basically loitering in aisles for no good reason. I realize that teams need to meet with each other between matches, and guests come to visit teams at competition, but is it really necessarily to have 15+ people in your pit at one time?

I believe that if we try harder to decrease the overall amount of people in the pit area then the need to scream warnings will noticeably decrease.

Koko Ed 27-03-2011 15:16

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill (Post 1045533)
Had a safety inspector tell us to be quite vocal when moving the robot at midwest...

Midwest's pits were insanely tight. 2410's pit was nearly in the queing line and I am so very glad that such a well organized and professional team like them were there. They kept their pits clean and organized and out of the queing area and even helped keep it the queing area clean. It made my job much easier!

Mr V 27-03-2011 15:49

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 1045572)
I see it as a safety hazard more than a safety practice. Here's why.

The problem I see is that it's being yelled so often, and so many times without purpose, that two things are happening:

1. People hear it so often they are tuning it out. It has less meaning now. It's like the boy who cried wolf.
2. Teams are gaining a false sense of entitlement that just because they yell "ROBOT!", other people will immediately move out of their way, and they proceed forward quickly whether the path is clear or not.

I agree wholeheartedly particularly with point #2. I've seen and been the recipient of a collision with a robot cart because someone has taken the attitude that because they yelled robot at the top of their lungs they are not responsible for running into people.

In regards to point #1 the fact that people yell it at the top of their lungs means that it is ineffective. There really isn't a way to determine if it is coming from 2 isles over from someone yelling at the top of their lungs or someone using a reasonably loud voice coming down your isle.

In regards to those who say the access to the pits should be restricted I just don't agree as that goes against the goals of first. Sure it is good to see the matches but getting up close and personal with the robots in the pits and seeing older kids putting so much effort into working on their robots is much more effective at sparking an interest in future generations of FIRST'ers.

JaneYoung 27-03-2011 15:57

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V (Post 1045799)
In regards to those who say the access to the pits should be restricted I just don't agree as that goes against the goals of first. Sure it is good to see the matches but getting up close and personal with the robots in the pits and seeing older kids putting so much effort into working on their robots is much more effective at sparking an interest in future generations of FIRST'ers.

It could be more controlled. I've been to regionals where middle schools (leaning on the younger side) were bussed in on Friday and basically, turned loose with very few chaperones/teachers in attendance. Sorry - the pit area is not a place for babysitting the future generation.

I've also had the displeasure of approaching a young family: father holding the hand of a 4 year old, mother holding a newborn - and telling all of them that they needed safety glasses, covered shoes, and by the time I got to the stroller, the mother (almost in tears) tucked her head and said, "we'll just leave," and made arrangements for her husband to take the young son on a stroll through the pits. That was ghastly. Awful. That family should have been able to experience a tour of the pits with joy and with someone to guide them through the experience.

These are just two examples of many that I've seen/had to contend with as a volunteer. Not fun for anyone.

There is always room for improvement and creating opportunities for more order in the pits that allows for deeper understanding of what they are and what they achieve is a good thing not a bad thing.

Jane

fuzzwaz 27-03-2011 16:45

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
You know, I thought this was just me. Last year I really didn’t notice, but this past weekend at the Nile's District I was getting kind of irritated by hearing “Robot” all the time.

I think it has to do with the fact that last year I was a human player and I was always moving in and out of the pits, but when you actually stay in the pits for a long period of time... It can get out of hand.

I support this completely.

Clayton Yocom 27-03-2011 17:44

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Team 45 and a few other teams at the rear of the Pit area at the Midwest Regional asked the Pit announcer to yell slightly quieter into the mic so that you could actually hear people that were 2 feet away from you. (I personally had to stop talking every time the announcer spoke as I was talking to judges or pit scouters) He accepted and was quieter for about 2 hrs, but rose his volume again as the DJ turned the music up insanely loud. Midwest had the volume very good during Thurs/Beginning of Friday, so that You couldn't hear the pit announcer while watching the field, and you couldn't hear the field music while in the pits. Late Friday early Saturday it got much worse. Another thing I noted is that during elims crates started moving in and teams started packing up. This would be fine if there weren't a dozen or so people in the walkways making transporting robots almost impossible.

Aren_Hill 27-03-2011 17:47

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Also being inside of a crate strapping the robot in while the DJ is blaring some song with insane base = oh the reverberation

SenorZ 27-03-2011 17:52

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Day 1 I would agree with you. The pit was half full in the morning and a team was screaming ROBOT! ...uncalled for.

Day 3 I don't agree. I was leading my kids from the practice area to the staging area because our match was in 5 minutes and there were SO many kids/parents/misc. people crowding the pits you had to scream, and sometimes they still didn't hear you.

Maybe each team should only be allowed 4 guests at a time with a check-in/out sheet to keep it from looking like a county fair.

216Robochick288 27-03-2011 17:53

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
In Waterloo, I think I heard about 4 loud -but appropriately placed- "ROBOT!"s. For the most part, travel through the pits was unhindered, allowing robots to move effectively through the pits. A few times I had to ask a large group of parents to move out of the way of the isle as there was no room for robots OR people traffic to move through, so they moved right out of the way. I really do believe it is unnecessary to yell robot. Asking nicely or tapping them on the shoulder and saying excuse me 6 ft [2m] ahead of the robot is enough to clear a good path to walk through. Also, if a team's safety captain made sure that more than 3 people didn't pack themselves in front of their pit, the isles would be much nicer to walk through.

Koko Ed 27-03-2011 17:54

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneYoung (Post 1045809)
It could be more controlled. I've been to regionals where middle schools (leaning on the younger side) were bussed in on Friday and basically, turned loose with very few chaperones/teachers in attendance. Sorry - the pit area is not a place for babysitting the future generation.

I've also had the displeasure of approaching a young family: father holding the hand of a 4 year old, mother holding a newborn - and telling all of them that they needed safety glasses, covered shoes, and by the time I got to the stroller, the mother (almost in tears) tucked her head and said, "we'll just leave," and made arrangements for her husband to take the young son on a stroll through the pits. That was ghastly. Awful. That family should have been able to experience a tour of the pits with joy and with someone to guide them through the experience.

These are just two examples of many that I've seen/had to contend with as a volunteer. Not fun for anyone.

There is always room for improvement and creating opportunities for more order in the pits that allows for deeper understanding of what they are and what they achieve is a good thing not a bad thing.

Jane

If someone visiting the pits suffered a severe injury to their foot or eye because we let the rules of the pit slide they'd really have something to cry about. it may be unpleasant enforcing the rules but they are there for a reason so they don't have to go through something even more unpleasant.

Duke461 27-03-2011 21:17

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koko Ed (Post 1045902)
If someone visiting the pits suffered a severe injury to their foot or eye because we let the rules of the pit slide they'd really have something to cry about. it may be unpleasant enforcing the rules but they are there for a reason so they don't have to go through something even more unpleasant.

Very well said. Everybody that replies from now on should read what koko ed has said (yay it rhymes :ahh: )

Alan Anderson 27-03-2011 23:15

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorZ (Post 1045900)
I was leading my kids from the practice area to the staging area because our match was in 5 minutes and there were SO many kids/parents/misc. people crowding the pits you had to scream, and sometimes they still didn't hear you.

If a few of the kids you were leading formed an "advance guard" with you in front of the robot cart, you could warn each of the miscellaneous people to make way and not have to scream at all. I think a personal tap on the shoulder works so much better than a generally broadcasted shout of "ROBOT!".

Eagleeyedan 03-04-2011 18:01

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
As I stated earlier, as to the calling out "ROBOT", I think it is nessecary. It alerts people that you are coming. If you just tap them on the shoulder, they probably won't understand that the robot is coming but will think that you are trying to talk to them. A better way to do it would be to call "ROBOT" and tap only if they don't move. Our team also has flashing LED light sticks and a reflective green vest we use to escort.

If you really want to cut down on the noise, turn the music down or even off! We take decible readings and it is almost always in the danger zone of more than 85 DCB for 8 hours and in the stands, it's usually around 95 which causes hearing damage for more than 3 hours. If the DJs would turn down the music, it would help with making the pits (and stands) quieter. I understand that the music helps make the competition more exciting but it is not worth the excitment if you lose partial hearing.

That's my opinion.

Koko Ed 03-04-2011 18:10

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
I spent the afternoon and Saturday trolling the pits of GTR having to drag teams to the field (they weren't coming out on their own and I wasn't doing any good playing traffic cop in the middle of the Hershey Arena with no teams showing up) and the pits were a disaster area of full teams hanging out in the pits holding conversations in the middle of aisles and visitors just standing in the way causality observing the teams trying to get ready for the next match and holding teams up from getting to the field.
FIRST needs too do something about this. Not only is it inconvenient it's dangerous. It's too crowded in the pits with too much going on and pieces of heavy machinery being moved back and forth. I do not understand why teams have to bring 30 kids into the pits to stand around and do nothing and then follow the team to the field so the quers have to turn them away AGAIN and while your at it thanks for blocking the entrance and exit to and from the arena floor.
I said it once and I will say it again: If you don't need to be in the pits stay out of the pits.

Karibou 03-04-2011 18:42

Re: A plea for a quieter pit area
 
IMO, there were problems with the noise level at Livonia this weekend. At one point when I was in the stands on Friday, I jumped back about two feet when I heard the first field noise blare from the speaker. I discovered that I WAS right next to a speaker, but there was still no excuse for it to be that loud. I also saw someone who had moved next to it during autonomous jump back when the teleop bell played. However, it WAS fixed by Saturday.

In the pits was another story. My team was located towards the back of the pit area, and I was able to hear voices very clearly from the doorway at the other end of our part of the fieldhouse. I cringed whenever one of these loud callers passed by our pit, or even through the row right behind us. The traffic flow was bad, but not bad enough to warrant a voice that loud. There were a few times when I was told by another student that I needed to belt out "ROBOT" at the top of my lungs, yet I was having no problems at the volume that I was using.

This last issue that I have was not a constant noise problem, but was still not pleasant. I was walking through one of the aisles to the door from my pit. Since it was around lunchtime, the pits were mostly empty, so I was able to move at a quicker pace. I was halfway down the aisle when someone jumped down from the bleachers along the wall, yelling at a volume that was louder than the calls of "robot," and was waving something that I think may have been a stuffed animal of some kind at me. Saying that it startled me would be an understatement. Because I was in a hurry, and was already in a bad mood, I didn't stop to express that what just happened was not appropriate pit behavior. I wish I had, but I hope that it never has the chance to happen again.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:57.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi