Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

Einstein will probably have alliances that consist of 2 top tube scorers that also have the fastest minibots on their alliance. The other robot would probably consist of a robot that can play all facets of the game well, that way, if a failure were to occur in either of the other 2 (i.e. flipped over), they could jump into the tube scoring and at least place a minibot. This third bot might be assigned to scoring some tubes as long as they stay out of the other peoples way (yes this is possible if the drivers are smart and keep in mind that they are the third bot and can only score when the rack is open, our alliance did this in florida and scored about 4 logos this way), it could be assigned to starving the other alliance of tubes (defense), or it might even be to go and get tubes either from the human player or from far areas of the field.

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

Defense+minibot. We won't see anyone with no minibot, and just defense. I think that the third robot in an Einstein alliance will be either a ferry robot, or a defense robot. If the "tube starvation" strategy works, then it will be a ferry.

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

Is there really an advantage to choosing a bot that has showed they are good at def rather than the best remaining scoring bot? If mini bots are equal that is. In my experience the decent scoring bots have good enough drivers and solid enough maneuvering ability to easily transition into a def role. The ability to switch back to a scoring role easily outweighs the experience gained playing def in qualifying rounds. Also, typical def bots may not be the best at stealing tubes assuming they might have inferior grabbers.

So I guess the question is, can def bots really play def that much better than a decent scoring bot in that role?

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

Potentially, yes.

Defensive drivetrains are designed for power and traction while most offensive drivetrains are designed for speed and manuverability. Since the offensive scorer must traverse the 18' between the poles (or have the tubes delivered between that space) that gives the defensive bot team knowlege of where the 'target' will be.

Offensive drive teams may not be completely up on the nuances of defensive penalties and therefore may incur more penalties. This is not any slight on the offensive driveteams, but a matter of what you've practiced, just as defensive driveteams would not be as good a scorer as an offensive driveteam.

The one last advantage of having a (only one) defensive team out there is that the scoring zone can get pretty crowded out there and offensive teams can get in each others way. With 2 powerful tube scorers, it may be wise to choose a third partner that won't play in the scoring zone.

My belief is that you will see on Einstein 2 powerful tube scoring robots, each capable of 2+ logos each, 1 defense bot (capable of starving the tube scorers and locking the scorers in their scoring zone at minibot deployment time) and all 3 having fast minibots with reliable deployers.

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

I would debate this. While I would agree that some of the speedsters may suffer in a pushing match, MOST other good scoring bots have good drivetrains. That is part of why they are good. Consider those with shifting transmissions. Fast and strong. I actually saw many Mechanum(sp?) drive bots play def quite well and they are maneuverable with minimum traction.

This brings up another question. What makes a better def bot for this game, fast and maneuverable, or powerful with a lot of traction? I say fast and maneuverable. Thoughts?

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

We played defense at GSR.

Our drivetrain was skid steer, 4 cims, AM supershifters, and pneumatic tires.

No Mechanum/omni could budge us and we were able to push most teams at will. Our shifters allowed us to keep up with (if not outrun) most drivetrains there in high gear while pushing most while in low gear. We placed 11th and were 8th seed captain without ever scoring a tube or minibot. We did this by keeping our opponents (some of the best scorers at BAE) to 12 points or less in 8 of our 10 seeding matches.

So, yes, I do believe that defenders, that play smart defense and have a complete understanding of their strategy and the nuances of defense can be superior defenders compared to an offensive team/bot that tries to play defense.

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

I have seen teams do this on purpose actually because they want to block the lane. Some robots can't pick up off the floor so if they block the lane with a tube, they can stop the team from getting tubes. I've even seen some teams do this in autonomus!

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

I am not trying to imply that defenders can't do well and will ultimately play better defense than a scoring bot due to experience. I just feel that the seperation in defending ability is not huge and the ability to ferry tubes and score if needed (uber tubes as well) wins out.

Our robot is 6WD, 1/8" rocker, AndyMark SuperShifters, 6" plaction wheels w/wedgetop tread. It was designed to not lose a pushing match and preferably slip away with our speed. Switch roles to def and we will make a pretty good defender. Just fast enough to catch you and just tough enough to stop you.

Maybe what I am missing here is how difficult it really is to shut down the opposition. Is there a real skill in properly defending or is any adequate defense all that is needed? I guess I need to watch some more tape with this focus in mind.

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

Einstein alliances will consist of the best group of 3 scoring robots that can be assembled. Each will have reliable autonomous (worth 12 points each) and at least 2 fast reliable minibots with a third one that is reliable as a minimum. Each will be a floor loader. There will be no feeder bots, since all tubes will be thrown at least 2/3 of the way downfield. The two best scorers will do just that. The other will work the far side of the field. Defense will not be about pushing robots. It will be about pushing your opponents tubes into your feeder lanes faster than they can pick them up to score them (starvation) and delaying one minibot deployment. The "defense" bot will be the reserve scorer and minibot. It will be the first time many of them have ever played defense, but their solid chassis' and experienced drivers will have mastered the task before they ever get out of their respective divisions.

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

Is this legal? If it were, I'd seriously contemplate on having an alliance with a defensive robot who's prime goal in autonomous is to block the feeding lane with an ubertube.

Re: Playing a different game on Einstein
 

Maybe its just me, but I think stopping a minibot is more valuable than scoring one, especially if its the opposing alliance's top minibot.

There are ways to make it very difficult for many teams to deploy a minibot without getting penalties. After looking through the estimated value of the top 25 teams robot and minibots, the robot is almost always as valuable and on the very best teams its significantly more valuable. Now given this could be because there is more point inflation with minibots than with robots, so it may not be quite a true reading. I think the emotional impact of a minibot is clouding people's perception of their actual value. I think if a team invested in stopping the fastest minibot, rather than putting up the fastest minibot, they would be the team to win on Einstein. Stopping the best minibot acts as at least a 30 point shift, assuming all 4 towers would normally be triggered.

*as always my calculations are estimates, and are not to be taken as a fact but rather a reference.